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e476fe15595030e50ac3cc1bbd5acd771-854x480It emerged last night that the Erebus of Ved Speed, member of Nulli Secunda, killed last week by Shadow Cartel after being bumped out of his POS shields by Soul Takers has been reimbursed by CCP and that one of the Soul Taker pilots, Aglon, has been banned.

In the early morning of 13th September 2014, Soul Takers noticed the Titan with its nose hanging out of his POS. Thinking that they could bump the Titan out of the POS because of this, they jumped into 100MN microwarpdrive Tornados and commenced bumping the AFK Titan out of his POS exposing more and more of his Titan. When he was completely out of the force field Soul Takers called in the heavy hitters of Shadow Cartel and destroyed said Titan.

Here is a picture, taken before the bumping occurred that clearly shows that a portion of the Erebus was indeed exposed and doing 0ms.

e7162-clip-207kb

This seems to be a little bit of a grey area, as CCP Falcon posted this in December of 2013;

Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit. 

Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP Games’ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on.

So the question is, how far into the POS shield does a ship have to be, to be covered by this rule? If it is legitimately bumpable by someone outside and by not having to enter the force field, should this then be considered an exploit and a bannable offence? Does this rule consider any ship that can not be interacted by persons on the outside of the POS (IE locking etc) within the force field? CCP needs to clarify this rule.

Gfy Trexton, CEO of Soul Takers, was unavailable to comment at the time of writing but said this on the EvE Online Forums;

The simple question is, Is this titan fair game to bump?
http://clip2net.com/s/iTZKyX

The nose is clearly out of the POS and doing 0ms.

If there is a rule about ships out of shields, I would like to see it.
If CCP’s logs show something (for the first time ever) outside of my understanding of the events, I would like the CSM to be notified of what they show and posted here (EvE Online forums)

This way we all have a better understanding of what the CCP rules are (for today) on this issue.

The player was notified that if the ship is not lockable then it is in the POS. Can someone please show me the rule, post, etc. that states this?

I managed to speak to Ved Speed of Nulli Secunda about his Titan loss and he had this to say;

I checked my Titan before going onto my other screen, onto my main. I believe it was totally in the POS shield when I left it and this is the opinion of CCP. I am very happy to have my Titan back.

I then asked him about the permanent banning of the pilot, Aglon from Soul Takers, he was not aware that it was a permanent ban until I told him;

Wow! I think that is severe. I think a timed ban would of been more than enough as it is not a rule that is expressly described by the EULA. I think you should implore CCP to get the ban reduced. I am sorry that this has happened to the pilot from Soul Takers and if I can do anything to help please contact me at any time.

I spoke to W0wbagger, CEO of Shadow Cartel, who lent their muscle to killing the Nulli Secunda Titan;

I am astounded at the apparent laziness inherent in this ban.

Many ships have been killed in this way, I was involved in the kill of one myself – a lev sticking out of a small tower that we bumped with 100mn tornados so hard that it popped out of the other side. When this happened there was no outcry of exploit, just amusement at the circumstances of the kill, the victim in particular was completely fine with the outcome, bumping like this has long been regarded as fair play.

With this ban I would like to know if CCP is saying that you now cannot bump anything that is next to a forcefield – what is the criteria? If the ship is making the smallest contact with the force field am I not allowed to bump it? What about if it’s further in but i’m still able to lock it? What if i’m damped and so don’t know if I can lock it or not? Or what if i can’t lock it due to the centre of the model being inside (and i’m not damped so i know this) am I not allowed to smack into the ship?

This ban sets a crazy and frankly difficult to enforce precedent, any titan that dies near a pos can basically claim it was inside the shield and apparently be reimbursed. I understand fully why lighting a cyno and jumping in 30+ titans to ensure some of them bump into a shield and bump a completely safe titan out, if classified as an exploit, – you can’t defend from this.

However simply not having half of your titans arse sticking out of a shield, you can defend from. I don’t feel taking advantage of someones foolishness in this case should be classed as an exploit and it certainly should not warrant a permanent ban.

As W0wbagger mentioned in his statement, this is not the first time a Titan has been bumped out of a POS because it is part way out and thus collidable. In January 2013 a Leviathan belonging to Kuchisa, an alt of Gorski Car at the time, was destroyed, again by Shadow Cartel. As you can see from the killmail, W0wbagger is present and correct in his bumping 100mn Tornado. This picture of the Leviathan show it hanging out of the POS shield, just like the Erebus of Ved Speed.

20130102-7qep-30kb

There is also a video of the kill which can be found here.

Back in January of 2013, no shouts of ‘exploit’ were heard and CCP took no action against Shadow Cartel nor did they reimburse the Leviathan. Infact the pilot of the Titan, Gorski Car took it in good humour, has a link to the loss in his ingame biography and laughed about it on the forums.

EN24 would also like to point out that this is not the only Titan to be reimbursed recently due to what CCP is calling exploits, however this one is a different type of exploit.

Southern Federation lost an Avatar titan back on the 8th September 2014 to Northern Coalition who used an exploit known as cyno bumping, where a cyno is lit against the POS shield and a number of capitals jump in. Some of these spawn within the POS shields and get ejected out, with the hope of catching the ‘safe’ Titan as they do so and bumping it outside of the shield for the fleet to kill. This has been seen as an exploit for a while now and CCP are taking steps in Oceanus to stop this happening by inserting a 25km ‘No Cyno’ zone around POS shields.

Elazar Keon, Current Head of the Stainwagon coalition said the following when Bobmon approached him for a response a few days ago:

After a few weeks of back and forth petitioning, a public statement announced in our SOTC, and escalating from GM to GM, I am extremely pleased that CCP not only recognized the fact that the titan bowling exploit exists and have attempted to make a quick fix for it, but they have also met our demands and replaced Graham Jackson’s avatarStainwagon will be logging our titans back in now.

I approached Elazar again this morning to get his reaction to the exploit used to kill another titan and the banning of one of the Soul taker pilots;

I did see screenshots of him (Ved Speed) outside (the POS) and looking at how the Titan is positioned in the picture…those Tornados can very easily go right along the line of the POS and 100mn Tornados especially would find it possible to bump that Titan out of the POS, but I wouldn’t put all my money on it unless I saw a video or something.

Being permabanned is a bit harsh I guess, but in the end, it really depends how the titan was bumped. If one of those nados got a good bump by bowling into the POS shield then, maybe…. but CCP shouldn’t blame or punish players for poor game design like that and, as far as i’m aware, Travis from NC. hasn’t been permabanned.

The tactic they (NC.) employed relied 100% on the exploit to kill the our Titan, the Soul Taker/ Shadow Cartel kill, could’ve been achieved just through good piloting.

In conclusion CCP has banned a Soul Taker pilot, Aglon, for bumping a Titan out of a POS which it was clearly haning out of, just like the Leviathan caught back in January 2013 by Shadow Cartel. In 2013 there was no suggestion of an exploit even though the exact same strategy was used, it was put down to a badly parked Titan.

NC. used a procedure just days after the Soul Taker/ Shadow Cartel kill which is a known and well documented exploit known as ‘Cyno Bumping’ however their FC is still active and no action was taken against them, though the Southern Federation Titan was reimbursed.

The owner of the Titan, while happy to have is Titan back was shocked that CCP had seen fit to permanently ban a pilot over it and has offered his support in getting him unbanned.

Aglon received a response from CCP last night after petitioning his ban. The reply stated that, because he did not enter the POS password the ban would be stand. Why the ban for this single pilot stands and members of NC. using the cyno bumping exploit were not punished will be a question that CCP must answer, and answer quickly.

CCP has once again showed their inconsistency when dealing with Titans and Exploits.

175 Comments

  1. Bawk Bawkbagawk

    wow CCP, over react much? give the guy a temp ban, clarify the rule and THEN drop the hammer on the next one. AFTER you have clarified the rule.

    September 22, 2014 at 13:26 Reply
  2. Gfy

    This support for a small corp is very much appreciated.
    The screen shots are from our scout that went to see why there was a large apoc fleet in system. The low probability of even making this out of shields bump work, did not make anyone even think of turning fraps on. It is not like it was a planned op. It was early TZ for us and only had about 5 people on.
    The events according to the people on site are exactly as stated in the article. The only cyno used was the one to bring in SC dreads after the bumping. Besides the fact the screen shots show the cyno some distance from the POS shields, I do not even think it is possible to do the debated cyno bump with only dreads and carriers.
    Besides the titan example listed by W0w (that I was on), I have also bumped multiple carriers in this way without forum tears being unleashed and trials being held with only the judge and victim being present.
    If the ban by ccp is from the possibility of his tornado passing through the shields at some point during the bumping, that is a game flaw and not what he was intending to do.

    September 22, 2014 at 13:36 Reply
    1. thatguy

      your statement could be inferred to mean that a tornado was bumped through the shields to begin the titan bumping process, though. Which would be a miniature bowl of sorts. So be careful when clarifying your point.

      September 22, 2014 at 16:19 Reply
      1. Gfy

        Meh, I could have just said “hello” and 50 people would have read something into it that was not there.

        September 23, 2014 at 01:24 Reply
  3. StarLord

    It’s CCP’s responsibility as the writer of the “what is an exploit” article to be CLEAR about the rules, not some vague, completely open to interpretation “Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.” LOCATED WITHIN? what defines this? visually fully inside? (we all know different eve clients render things differently at times) does it count as inside the shield when half of it is hanging out? does it count as inside if 1/4 of it is hanging out? does that apply if its lockable, or not, there needs to be a definite rule and line stated by CCP so there is no confusion. Based on the screenshot there was a section of a titan hanging OUTSIDE of the shield bubble that players could interact with, and the attempt was made, and was successful. Had the rules been explained by CCP in more detail, for example: if it is lockable or not, players could rely on that to make the decisions on their actions, and not get perma banned for something the game completely allowed. Reverse this ban – this is insane CCP

    September 22, 2014 at 14:32 Reply
    1. thatguy

      They banned a player for being idiots themselves, basically.

      September 22, 2014 at 16:17 Reply
  4. orly?

    CCP needs a full playbook on this. There’s a lot of ‘scrimmage line’ play on POS shields. During a fight that starts to go bad, people will often burn for a POS shield for safety. All kinds of things happen when they do. What about the ratter who was sitting on a JB in his Golem? If the front part of the ship gets in the shield but the ‘wing’ gets stuck, on say a Rifter (cleverly piloted) and the ship bounces back out, is the Rifter perma-bannable?

    What’s the test? Whether the ship is lockable? The Rifter might lock a hostile ship in this situation, but what about a carrier who hasn’t had a chance to unfit his cloak yet – why bother trying to start a lock when maneuver is more important (assuming a fleet is doing the shooting for you). What if there’s EWAR on the field – you might be jammed with no way to know if a ship is lockable or not.

    I wouldn’t fight inside 15KM of a POS shield until CCP fixes this. Never know when your account might get permabanned.

    September 22, 2014 at 14:33 Reply
    1. N3_Grunt

      Already posted this near the bottom of the comments but CCP themselves gave me the green light late 2013 when asking about this very same issue.

      If it sticks out a posshield, even partially, it is fair game.

      http://i.imgur.com/6o5Hz84.jpg

      Above screen with part of the mailing conversation.

      September 22, 2014 at 14:53 Reply
      1. thatguy

        Might need to get updated clarity on this, since they appear to have changed their mind. That. Or the GMs aren’t in agreement and they’re all deciding what is legal and what isn’t on their own terms.

        September 22, 2014 at 16:16 Reply
      2. thatguy

        Might need to get updated clarity on this, since they appear to have changed their mind. That. Or the GMs aren’t in agreement and they’re all deciding what is legal and what isn’t on their own terms.

        September 22, 2014 at 16:16 Reply
        1. N3_Grunt

          Clarity? I will bet my left arm on CCP not even knowing their own rules. Rules are made up on the spot on a case by case basis.

          September 22, 2014 at 16:25 Reply
  5. truthBsaid

    Begging question:
    WHY DID CCP TAKE SOME TIME BEFORE THEY APPLY THE BAN?

    Obvious answer:
    Because CCP, themselves, do not know the limitations of their own rule(s). They are professionals at discussing discussions that last for months, yet they are unable to man up and get their own game running stable. And alike the recent no-Revenant-killmail and the Somerset scandal, they only notice about the many issues hanging loose when their ‘cherished’ null-sec-bears start whining. The minorities, alas, still pays for a game where only the majority is heard.

    Time to change this. Definitely. Fuck CCP and their Eve Online.

    September 22, 2014 at 14:53 Reply
    1. thatguy

      the scandal was in somerset?

      I think you mean Somer Blink.

      September 22, 2014 at 16:14 Reply
      1. Truth Hurts

        Which was named after the character, Somerset. Get a clue before you correct someone.

        September 22, 2014 at 22:36 Reply
  6. Sheldon

    Come to where people like you, will enjoy real space game. We are a new Eve online but without all CCPs bullshit!

    http://www.seldoncrisis.com

    September 22, 2014 at 15:04 Reply
    1. Bawk Bawkbagawk

      maybe when it goes live I will take a peek, but I am not getting burned by another company with an alpha game.

      September 22, 2014 at 15:19 Reply
    2. RageRifter

      The Foundation Series is one of my all time favorite sets of books. Isaac Asimov is one of the greatest writers of the modern age. Please pay tribute to this man by hiring someone to go back over your website and correct the grammar and spelling.

      I’m available. Holler.

      September 24, 2014 at 14:00 Reply
  7. Zim Babwe

    CCP half a month ago,

    “While we appreciate that the exploit notification you linked does make it appear that the loss of your ship was outside of game mechanics the bumping of your ship outside of the force field in the manner described is not an exploit.

    The nature of Titan and super capital class ships make them something of a special entity in the game. Their size and stature, while imposing, can cause problems with their safety. The developers are aware that certain vulnerabilities exist as far as Titans located in force fields are concerned and ultimately it is up to them if they wish to change the mechanics to prevent further losses such as the one you suffered.

    The use of other super capitals in the manner you have described is unorthodox and does present its own risks. The ships used to bump have to be placed in extreme risk and thus are themselves vulnerable to destruction.

    We will in this instance have to deny any reimbursement for your loss and hope that you and your alliance will recover from the loss swiftly.”

    September 22, 2014 at 15:19 Reply
    1. thatguy

      Wasn’t that in response to the cyno on the edge of the shields and use titans jumping into the shields to bump whatevers inside?

      Funny how nobody got punished in that incident but bumping a titan using a subcap does.

      September 22, 2014 at 16:13 Reply
      1. Zim Babwe

        Yes, my point exactly

        September 22, 2014 at 16:16 Reply
  8. Senex Legio 1

    Seems to me this should be pretty easy to figure out. If you cannot target the ship in the force field you cannot bump it. If you can target it you can bump it. Screenshots should be easy to produce. That is the only objective standard which makes any sense.

    September 22, 2014 at 15:20 Reply
    1. StarLord

      Sure, if that was the actual language CCP used in their explanation to the community, but it wasn’t. Had they defined lockable or not, it would be clear – merely stating “inside the shield” could mean anything. Read some of the comments below

      September 22, 2014 at 15:23 Reply
  9. These pics of the nose hanging out were probably after a few cyno bowling exploits had taken place so they’d have an alabi.

    September 22, 2014 at 15:46 Reply
    1. StarLord

      Uhhh… yah, cuz after getting cyno bowled you go 0m/s! How clever you are! also, there are other threads about this showing the aftermath and the cyno is WAY off the shield. The titan had moved to the perimeter of the shield to apparently bridge a fleet out, and he went too far, and was bump able.

      September 22, 2014 at 16:01 Reply
  10. Tiye Q

    The state of the game has deteriorated so much, that bumping ships out of POS shields is considered “fun”. Good grief. Shut the servers and put this game out of its misery.

    September 22, 2014 at 16:47 Reply
    1. StarLord

      Honestly, I considered not even replying to this because – this must have been a troll right? I don’t know what particulate profession you have chosen in eve, perhaps a miner or salvager? But for many the chance to kill an irresponsible super capital that was parked too close the the shield and exposed – is indeed “fun”

      September 22, 2014 at 17:26 Reply
  11. daniL

    so if you have titan in the game you are not getting banned
    if you have tornado and use it to bump other ships you do.

    Ok selling my nado and buying a titan then I will unbanable

    September 22, 2014 at 17:35 Reply
  12. BigSako

    So what about miner and freighter bumping in highsec?
    Is CCP indicating, that a starbase forcefield in deep 0.0 provides more safety (even if your ship clearly is partially outside the forcefield) than a system with security status greater than 0.5 (especially 1.0)?

    September 22, 2014 at 18:13 Reply
    1. JIeoH Mocc

      Obviously the force filed provides more safety than a highsec system, dummy.

      September 22, 2014 at 18:32 Reply
  13. Kmelx

    CCP wrongly crucifying the little guys, to make an example to the big guys who are exploiting the fuck out of this, makes a fucked up kind of sense…If you are some sort of retard ofc.

    September 22, 2014 at 18:43 Reply
  14. Tired of this crap

    Should have banned the whole player.. not just one char. And bumping needs to be removed.. period. Anything smaller than the given targets size class, should go splat against the hull, instant ship and pod death. Undocks should just be phased and more controlled like actual traffic control.

    September 22, 2014 at 21:51 Reply
    1. tired of your crap

      Genius of the year award goes to ^ Go back to mining, *eyeroll* or whatever hole you crawled out of.

      September 22, 2014 at 22:16 Reply
    2. tired of your crap

      Genius of the year award goes to ^ Go back to mining, *eyeroll* or whatever hole you crawled out of.

      September 22, 2014 at 22:16 Reply
  15. RIP 42BC - 98800

    If CCP was going to ban anyone it should have been the NC pilot(s) for pos bowling, they pretty much flaunted it in everyones face and made it no secret that this is how they managed to kill that STFU titan. But instead they ban a single tornado pilot who seemed to have more of a legit case and claim to the kill he got (with help) than people who knowingly jumped in x number of titans to push an enemy ship out of its pos shield. This to me seems like a completely ass backwards outcome to something that seems bluntly obvious, a slap on the wrist is what should have happened to the tornado pilot if anything at all, not a full out permaban while other entities are allowed to bluntly exploit bumping and pos mechanics.

    September 23, 2014 at 01:32 Reply
  16. Mac
    September 23, 2014 at 01:57 Reply
  17. Stu Pendisdick

    The real fix to the whole ‘bumping’ thing is to introduce collision damage.

    You wanna bump a freighter with an Ares? Get ready to become bug splat.

    “Bumping” is utter shite in the first place. You hit something, there should be commensurate damage to both the thing hitting as well as the thing being hit.

    Exempt stations and gates from receiving or causing damage, but for everything else, from ships to billboards to asteroids and even station and gate sentry guns ( which are generally useless these days anyway ), damage should apply on par with standard mechanics of kinetic energy.

    Make “bumping” have *REAL* consequences.

    September 23, 2014 at 05:39 Reply
  18. StarLord
    September 23, 2014 at 14:40 Reply
  19. newb

    How are people telling the “Erebus was sticking its nose out of the field” pic not to be a fake? I mean, the screenshot could have been taken AFTER it got an “exploit bump.” Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to say it’s a fake, but just wanted to know if there are mechanics that I am unaware of that kind of proves the legitimacy of it.

    September 23, 2014 at 16:22 Reply
    1. StarLord

      Had it been a POS bowl, it would have been far outside that shield… also, its going 0 m/s and hanging out at the front, allowing players to interact with it without going into the forcefield. The titan had just finish bridging a fleet from outside the shield and had positioned himself at the perimeter to do just that, except he went too far. Also – based on the kill screenshot, in the thread covering the killing of this titan you can see the cyno that brought the dreads in is FAR FAR away from the POS shield…. and really.. players should not have to record and screenshot and make videos of themselves to protect themselves from a ban, due to things the game engine allows and CCP’s totally vague rules on whats and exploit and wants not, also – them changing their minds week to week also doesn’t help…

      September 23, 2014 at 17:21 Reply
  20. gg

    It seems consciously taking advantage of sever ticks is bannable e.g. 100MN vessels. But cyno bumping is ok since titans have no control over where in the 5KM radius they will land. I can see the difference but most of the player base wont or will rage for change

    September 23, 2014 at 23:11 Reply
    1. W0w

      Doing this doesn’t take advantage of servet tick at all, you don’t even need to touch the shield

      September 24, 2014 at 07:24 Reply
  21. Tomball

    I think we should consider the possibility that the pilot banned was a trouble maker and had several other offenses against him/her. Obviously the community would not be privy to this information.

    September 25, 2014 at 02:18 Reply
  22. Zebby

    Once again roll the dice with whatever GM you get. Be sure to fraps everything and apparently now guard what you say on TS or you too might get Perma-banned.

    September 25, 2014 at 21:57 Reply
    1. hitman 001

      eve if you fraps they dont give a shit about that….

      September 26, 2014 at 06:56 Reply
      1. hitman 001

        even*

        September 26, 2014 at 06:57 Reply

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