Like many of you I read the reddit post written by CSM X/Get Off My Lawn [LAWN] leadership member Thoric Frosthammer regarding the new sov mechanics.I advise that you read it first before reading this as I will be going down the points of his argument and addressing them.
First off I’d like to point out that we have had the new sov mechanics in EVE for less than a month. While we can begin placing some small criticisms at CCP’s feet concerning the new mechanics, considering we have not had much of a chance to experience it all that long renders me a bit skeptical when someone, even a CSM member, starts speaking in absolute terms about how the new sov is somehow broken. At this point very few people can actually speak from experience.
Secondly, these opinions also stem from many people who have had extensive background and experience with Dominion sov, which may skew their perspective a bit. More on this toward the end.
Thoric expresses his opinion that conflict occurs when both sides feel that they have a shot at winning. Well no it really doesn’t work that way. This factor can be used to describe some of the mindset perhaps, but it isn’t the conflict driver. Conflict occurs due to scarcity, which by the way Thoric is trying to get rid of further in his argument by increasing the value of 0.0 systems still. If everyone is generally well off, conflict is less common. This is why in international relations we learn the importance of GDP per capita. Countries with low per capita GDP with economies based around a few natural resources are very prone to instability and war.
He goes on to explain that certain fights won’t happen for reasons such as one side having links, a large numeric advantage, or a counter fleet to their opposition. Pardon me but this sounds like a Dominion sov problem. I’m not sure what experience Thoric has had with the new sov yet but I can speak first hand.
SpaceMonkey’s Alliance [SMA] had a station reinforced under the new sov mechanic and my alliance (Black Legion. [MEN.]) formed up to fight on their turf and see how exactly the new sov fighting goes. We formed up Machariels with artillery and armor, Oneiros for Logi and a smattering of Entosis fit frigates and dictors. The [SMA] fleet avoided a direct conflict with our fleet and instead fit up frigates to go after the nodes. [MEN.] learned very quickly that instead of having one fleet bump with the other, we would need to split up our forces. We formed gangs of 10+ and went to capturing nodes having fights along the way throughout multiple systems.
That scenario where two huge fleets form up in massive TiDi, where 99 percent of the players hit “orbit” and wait for primaries to pop up on their overviews to hit F1…is over as far as sov taking goes. Those sort of fights may still occur on moons or for super cap ganks/saves, but sov fighting is all about splitting up your forces, being mobile, knowing which objectives to take and which to abandon, and most of all it is about actual individual player skill. That is the key point right there.
Next Thoric expresses 4 points that he believes will make conflict more likely. Below I will simply post my rebuttal and you can read his original post side by side with mine.
1. No one is going to eliminate Supercaps. I honestly do not even know why he would throw this suggestion out there as it is completely unrealistic. It simply is not going to happen. He states that “local supercap superiority is unbeatable.” Again I have to wonder if he’s participated in any of the new sov combat. How do you have “local superiority” with supers when the nodes are spread out all over the constellation? Is an FC willing to split up his super fleet for say all 10 nodes? What happens when you cover each node with some supers and the enemy drops all their dreads on one particular force and your supers can not warp in time or jump to the other super because of fatigue? And since when is not being able to batphone all the supers from all over New Eden a bad thing?
2. Concerning links…here is the thing, if he is speaking about solo game play…well EVE is not a fair game, it is not a tournament. It is a game where you use every advantage you have to win. You bite, you throw sand in people’s eyes, you put laxatives in their morning coffee before the big move op. In any case people will trade their link alts for an EWAR alt and nothing will change. If Thoric is referring to links in the context of fleet fights, well if you cannot even field links as a sov holding alliance…what are you even doing in 0.0? And as I explained before from my first hand account in our battle with [SMA], your fleet is so split up and divided running around capturing nodes, links have gotten a proxy nerf. You either need more of them to cover all the separate groups or you go without. Again this criticism has me asking if Thoric’s playing in the new sov.
3. See point 2.
4. From the way this sounds, it seems like Thoric wants to give everyone a participation ribbon so we can all feel like winners when we log off for the night. Tough. That’s not what EVE is about. Plenty of other MMOs do just that. However, he does bring up sort of a sentiment that I have had before myself. I would like new combat scenarios where we can actually take an enemy’s wealth from their space and bring it back home.
The Vegas analogy he uses sucks. Of course I would not be happy if I had to fist fight someone in the lobby downstairs to turn on the TV in my room…because it’s a HOTEL. That’s like saying “I hate the new sov because when I’d be so mad if when I ate ice cream, it caught on fire and burned my face off.” Of course, it’s ice cream, it’s not suppose to do that. It’s just a poor analogy with no logical relevance to the subject being discussed.
His first, “first” solution is to increase the value of 0.0 systems to make them “worth fighting for.” Again conflict occurs more when there is scarcity, not abundance. As for his other numbered points:
1. This solution is such a perfect example of a “Dominion sov mindset” symptom. If entosis links slow down the ship, then people will have to bring a tankier ship. If they bring a tankier ship, they have to bring more people to begin sov war. If they have to bring more people, then they have to take longer time to form up, meaning people are less likely to undock unless an FC forms them up CTA style and “provides content.” The New Sov means I can undock by myself in my entosis Dramiel, go to the system next door and begin sov war all by myself. THIS is the “bottom up” content people were crying for and now that it’s hit people square in the face, they don’t know what to do.
2. Thoric’s second point illustrates a further misunderstanding of who should have the burden of proof regarding sov warfare. He believes that the attacker should be satisfied with raiding the outer lands while the sov holder should be secure in their fortress. Sorry but it’s easier to burn down the barn than it is to raise it. That’s just how things work.
2.5. Thoric takes the time to answer a hypothetical retort again missing the point. He assumes people will accuse him of favoring the ‘Imperium’ and claims that he is instead looking out for the little guys who take sov and are now being attacked by “every troll in New Eden.” Not really the case either. This is such an unsubstantiated claim it does not even deserve reply but I’ll do so just to drive the point home. In the south east you have Triumvirate and Red Alliance going at it through the new sov. Now before you say “but they aren’t small entities because they can field double digit fleets,” well considering the context they actually are. You’re not going to have 5 man alliances holding sov. You at least need to be able to field 30+ or so and have some diplomacy skills.
3. If you cannot even field enough of a force to deal with a lone frig entosising your station’s services, again, do you deserve to be out in 0.0?
4. Not a complete point.
Dear Thoric,
I would go ahead and formulate better ideas and arguments on the subject. Half of what you said honestly has me wondering if you have even played in the new sov, the other half is partially formulated “what if” ideas that are either unrealistic or not relevant to EVE anymore. Your words make it abundantly clear that you represent a segment of the 0.0 population that is primarily non confrontational, risk averse and based around PvE and maintaining the status quo of which it has benefited from under Dominion sov.
I’m sure you’re a nice individual and hope you do not take my words personally but your argument was unfulfilled and I shudder at the notion that CCP would take even a grain of what you said under consideration.
Best regards…
Moving on I would like to offer people a better analogy than having to punch people in the face in a Las Vegas casino lobby so that you may watch TV in your room. There’s no question about it. EVE as a game has changed, specifically 0.0. This is a revolutionary expansion that has eclipsed even the Phoebe changes. We’ve essentially evolved from “trench warfare” to “armor/mobility warfare.”
Under Dominion sov, coalitions and alliances would form up in their big blobby snowball and smash against one another until one side won. The basic input the vast majority of players had on fights such as these is to orbit an anchor, wait for primary to be called and press F1. This 0.0 form of warfare has been understood as “end game PvP” and the participants as “end game PvPers.”
This is not going to win me any friends to say this but the vast majority of 0.0 “PvPers” have the above as their bulk PvP experience. If I were to take a random sampling from 0.0 and put them up against 6 month old Faction Warfare pilots, the FW pilots would annihilate them. If holding 0.0 sov had less to do with politics, it would be turned inside out within a few months.
The new sov scares most people because it exposes this weakness. People can no longer simply rely on their FC to do everything for them. And now since people actually have to take into account things like their transversal, and hey they may have to venture out a couple systems away from their FC they are scared. “Grr Fozziesov!” All of us have two choices at this point.
1. Complain.
2. Understand and adapt.
Or to use my analogy, you can sit and try to defend the Maginot Line or you can figure out how armored cavalry works.
-Seraph IX Basarab
