If you are an Incursion Runner in highsec you’ve likely noticed that the incursions seem to be rapidly dying then respawning after 12-36 hours only to die again shortly after.
For those of you who don’t run incursions, dying is inevitable. Most groups will try to farm the incursion till it enters the “withdrawing” stage to make the full amount of isk before having to move again. Why? Because once the mothership site (The Kundalini Manifest) is completed, the incursion ends and no more isk can be made from that particular incursion, forcing pilots wait to for the next incursion to spawn.
This changed after the DDoS attacks that tranquility suffered on august 21st, when it’s alleged that TVP pilots ( The Valhalla Project) logged back in to find that their wrecks had been looted and a rival FC was suspect flagged in local and even spotted in a Buzzard looting wrecks, while you may think that a simply petition to CCP will get the entirety of the loot back, you would be wrong. There is a rule for events like this that dictates CCP not reimbursing loot that “dropped” in to the wreck, and as such those expensive modules that dropped would be gone.
This is the part where the article becomes divided.
First I will start with ISN or Incursion Shiny Network ( you may have seen their advert in the Alliance Tournament). I was able to speak with one of their main diplomats otherwise known as PopplerRo from ISN who was there when it all happened. Here is the conversation:
Can you tell me the events leading up to the DDoS attack and when and where it happened?
PopplerRo: It happened in Kiereend inside a contested TCRC with the TVP fleet. A DDoS occurred and people disconnected. Ships died so the rest of the fleet warped out since it was also at the end of the site.
When the DDoS happened, how long was it before any FC or fleet member was able to log in from your fleet?
PopplerRo: A few minutes, a few people didn’t dc, they just docked up and waited it out.
Did Noble Ranger Disconnect with the fleet or was he able to stay online?
PopplerRo: He warped the fleet out, so no he didn’t dc but did dc’d moments later.
Did he mention on comms going back for the wrecks and removing loot from TVP wrecks?
PopplerRo: He re-logged and went suspect to loot the ISN wrecks. People were locking him to shoot and he warped out. All loot was returned to the rightful owners.
Did noble say anything at the time about possibly having extra loot or was it just ISN wrecks on grid?
PopplerRo: Nope, but he did link a slightly faked cargo bay just to piss off TVP.
Was this from the other ships he had in his hangar as seen in the “evidence” of nobles hangar?
PopplerRo: Some was the loot from the ISN ships, some personal.
What do you think happened to the loot from the TVP wrecks on grid?
PopplerRo: When talking to TVP, ask them for the loss mail’s. It’s quite simple to clarify the isk difference between what was lost and how somehow 20 billion was looted from 10 billion of wrecks. It’s because there were many neutrals swarming around.
So you would say that TVP were trying to get more loot then was actually lost?
PopplerRo: I don’t know who they were flying around, but I would say they were only looking for an excuse.
How long do you think TVP will continue destroying Mothership sites?
PopplerRo: I don’t know. That would be a question for them.
A few ISN members ( or people who appear to be) have spoken up on varying sides, some are unhappy with Noble ranger removing loot but are unhappy that incursions are being closed, what do you have to say to these people?
PopplerRo: I have nothing the say to them. Some people will always find a way of getting upset in Eve
If you were Noble ranger, would you have “linked a slightly faked cargo bay just to piss of TVP ?
PopplerRo: Yes.
Even with what is now happening, you would do it?
PopplerRo: Yes. Regardless of the picture they appear to just want something to scapegoat their campaign.
What do you think it would take to get TVP to stop the mom popping?
PopplerRo: TVP have never liked ISN. I’m not bothered if they ever give this up or continue it. What would it take for them to give it up? No idea. That would also be a question for them.
Do you have anything else you would like to add or say?
PopplerRo: Nope.
Shortly after my interview with PopplerRo I heard back from a member of The Valhalla Project (TVP) leadership Heres the interview with Juli Paris
Can you tell me the events leading up to the DDoS attack and when it happened?
Juli Paris: The DDoS was on the 21st of August, and the immediate days prior to the attack there was nothing of note happening. No drama.
When the DDoS happened, how long was it before any FC or fleet member was able to log in and try to retrieve any loot from wrecks?
Juli Paris: This isn’t really answerable. Many pilots were spamming client to rejoin, and unable to. Others could join, but would get booted again shortly after. It was pot luck. We actually got some intel, such as Noble Ranger being flashy and out and about in a covert ops ship from some players who did not DC at all, but they were not part of the fleet. This is also where we got such chat logs which are part of our news announcement.
Who spotted Noble Ranger on grid and are they able to prove they not only saw him but that he took from the wrecks?
Juli Paris: There is unquestionable evidence of the scoop by Ranger, not only are there first hand accounts from FC’s and players, but there are screenshots and pastebins of loots, consistent to loss mails, and text logs of admittance of guilt/taunting. Even in the screenshot from Noble Ranger, of his hangar, is included a mail of an unhappy player who watched the whole thing unfold.
Has this ever happened before with TVP and another community including ISN?
Juli Paris: No, historically communities have always band together during times such as these. Personally, I have had loot rescued from a site from another community, and rescued others loot and passed it back to them another time. Responsible figures have always put aside their squabbles for the betterment of the playerbase.
Do you think as a whole that your response to the loot being “removed” from ship wrecks on grid was the right move?
Juli Paris: A much misunderstood part of The Valhalla Project is how it is managed. We are run as both a meritocracy and a democracy. Not only can anyone in the community step up and become an FC, assuming some competence, but once an FC you’ll find that everything we do is sent through exhaustive meetings for full votes from active members. This particularly policy was drafted across 4 meetings, of which 15 or so FC’s attended, following uproar from the TVP community demanding a reaction. The meetings were, as always, across as many time zones as possible so as many FC’s could get input from the different parts of our community to vote efficiently on behalf of public members. This is why it took four days to implement following the theft. So my personal thoughts on our response as a community are actually quite irrelevant, as my vote is just a single drop in a very large body of water.
Noble Ranger hit back along with other ISN members claiming if in the same situation that TVP would not have given loot back, is there any evidence to back their claim or TVP’s claim that they would have given loot back?
Juli Paris : ISN is a giant propaganda machine. They are fully aware, as is every other person who has been in the incursion community, that historically TVP has supported other communities players. The thing with propaganda is that it is exactly that… propaganda. Even on a smaller scale than DDoS attacks, we have rescued other stricken fleets in TCRC’s so they can get their loot, and I am certain older members from any community will vocalize the validity of this statement and our efforts in similar circumstance.
How long do you think TVP will continue destroying Mothership sites?
Juli Paris: TVP is historically passive, and this is a new thing for us following the general uproar of our community, so it’s not something we have experience in. I couldn’t give a definitive timescale, but I can say so far after only a short period, but the effects are already showing. Casual ISN players are now flying with other communities, and the ISN HQ takes hours to form, with multi-boxers in fleet. Another verifiable effect is ISN’s complete avoidance of VG’s since we input our policy, as their propaganda revolves around them winning contests. Currently they cannot beat the TVP VG fleets, so they are actively avoiding this part of incursions to avoid the propaganda hit. So, so far, we are having an effect, the hurt is apparent, but it is hard to guess exactly how much longer it will take.
A few ISN members have spoken up on varying sides, some are unhappy with Noble Ranger removing loot but are unhappy that incursions are being closed, what do you have to say to these people?
Juli Paris: A lot of players are being hit hard, and I am very sorry on behalf of TVP for this. The trick is to overcome the short term, and think of what a great environment we will have when we have completed to our goal. The more people behind us, the stronger the policy is, and thus by extension, the less people supporting us, the weaker it is. I have so far been massively impressed by the strength and the resolve of the TVP community in a whole… they asked for action, and now we are taking it, they are sticking by us. The problem is that other communities who haven’t taken the time to note the differences between what we are doing, and what other people have done in the past, and how these differences are resulting in a much better success rate. I implore anyone who is listening to propaganda from ISN, or doesn’t fully understand the particular parts of our policy that make it different to failed attempts in the past, to jump in our channel, jump on our comms, and ask for an explanation. You’ll be pleasantly surprised when you take the time to understand it, and realize why TVP members are so supportive of the action being taken.
What would it currently take to get everything back to normal and have TVP just run incursions again without killing them prematurely?
Juli Paris: ISN may run in VGs and AS, not HQ. When ISN casual players, and the ISN hardcore center team keeping them alive with multi-boxing realizes that every time they join a HQ fleet…. from now on with no end date. The focus will close and they will stop joining the HQ fleets. When enough players have done this, the incursions will not close as ISN will not be undocking. There are not alternatives to this as currently the vast majority of our community supports continued action, and I do not believe this will change.
Do you have anything else you would like to add?
Juli Paris: I’ll start with a shout out to the TVP community in general. When we first drafted the general policy we were met with applause from other communities, as well as our own. We even had our news announcement edited by other communities to ensure they were happy with it. However, once we actually started the policy other communities got cold feet and started releasing statements of being neutral, or worse. This was quite surprising following discussions on comms with them, and disappointing of course, but it did show what a fantastic group of players are in The Valhalla Project channel as they are sticking up for what they think is right. I would ask that any incursion communities or players that have feedback, suggestions, or diplomacy requests, contact one of the names linked in our MOTD. We’re always open to communication, and we consider it vital to a healthy community.
What I personally take from this is, while ISN deny that any wrong doing was done on their part, they do indeed like to cause a little bit of trouble, this is evident here :
Did Noble say anything at the time about possibly having extra loot or was it just ISN wrecks on grid?
PopplerRo > Nope, but he did link a slightly faked cargo bay just to piss of TVP.
And here
If you were Noble Ranger, would you have “linked a slightly faked cargo bay just to piss of TVP” ?
PopplerRo > Yes.Even with what is now happening, you would do it?
PopplerRo > Yes.
What I think also sends a lot of mixed messages is that while Noble Ranger and his diplomats strongly deny any wrong doing on their part, an excerpt from local can be found in full here:
The Valhalla Project policy can be found here.
The reddit thread can be found here.
pastebin here
At the very least it would appear that ISN are unable to keep a story straight, and at the most… well, I think Noble said it best in that Pastebin excerpt.
Do you have an opinion on this or have been affected?
Do you think taking loot while players are unable to log into the server is fair game?
I would also like to take a moment and ask if you the playerbase agree with CCP’s “If it dropped into a wreck then you will not be reimbursed no matter what happens to the server and if you are unable to log back in”
Let us know in the comments section!
