Hello, I am Seraph IX Basarab and I’ve been contributing content to EN24 since 2011. I generally write opinion pieces concerning policy, meta strategy, in game tactics and a bit concerning the happenings in the shadier sides of Eve. I’m also the leader in a recently rebuild small corp known as Hades Effect that specializes in stealth warfare, intelligence gathering, mercenary work, and pirate activity in wormhole space, 0.0 and lowsec.

Phoebe Factors

There is no question that Pheobe has changed the face of warfare in Eve. The LY limit imposed upon capital ships has sent leaders and strategists across Eve scrambling to the drawing board to figure out new travel lanes and choke points. Contrary to what some have predicted, Phoebe has not decreased the use of capital ships but rather increased it. No longer does every lone carrier that undocks have to worry about that terrible cyno that would link dozens if not hundreds of supers to the soon-to-be wreck. Smaller groups especially in lowsec have seen an increase of use in their areas of combat. Now entities such as Pandemic Legion, Northern CoaltionDOT, Black Legion and so on, have to consider the costly effects of moving their capital fleets across space for a simple gank.

The changes have gone even further for those watching the Eve influence maps and dotlan. Mostly recently we have seen two major withdrawals by both PL and the CFC with the former giving up much of their territory in the Drone Regions while on the opposite end of New Eden saw the CFC withdrawing from the south west to defend their new borders at Fountain.

Our Task at Hand

The purpose of this article is to consider some of the grand strategies that could be implemented in the growing conflict as the CFC seeks to defend its borders from a multitude of enemies. Entities such as DARKNESS, Kadeshi and NCdot have amassed their forces in the south west where once flew the flag of the CFC. In NPC Venal, Black Legion has once again set themselves to attack valuable CFC income sources ablaze. How has the CFC dealt with these challenges and what sort of strategy are they perusing to vanquish their foes? On the other side, what sort of lessons has N3 and BL learned in the past and could they apply these lessons to capitalize on the CFC’s receding borders?

The Vengeful Queen Bee and the Black Knight King of the North

At Mittani’s media outlet, the CFC leader outlined his sentiment concerning Black Legion. Now usually Mittani can generally pose even the most dire situations as completely under his control. If he’s good at one thing, it’s making masses of his followers that things are going “according to plan.” It was quite telling this time around when the “cool collected smug-n-sarcastic” Mittani gave way to someone that seemed outright upset. This isn’t some thinly veiled attempt to say “umad” but a sincere observation and anyone can compare and contrast previous well written coalition addresses to the more recent one.

The Mittani, and Elo Knight (leader and head FC of BL) have had a one sided love hate relationship. During the Dotbros (NCdot, Nulli, BL) war after the fall of OTEC a few years back, Mittani wrote in admiration concerning Elo’s ability to lead fleets. In fact he suggested that Elo was the only FC on the Dotbros side that kept the CFC from acquiring a total and overwhelming victory in Tribute. As the CFC numbers poured into Tribute, NCdot failed to manage the opening of a 2nd front in the east against Solar, and internal drama concerning internet romance on the Dotbros side, the small coalition broke apart.

Apparently Elo had been listening to Mittani’s compliments and had succumbed to the silver tongued ex-lawyer. It also didn’t hurt that Mittani threw a pile of ISK at his knight. Elo would lead Black Legion as Mittani’s mercenary force during the conflict in Fountain which saw TEST Alliance and Tribal Band shattered and stripped of their territory. Afterward BL would serve as a strong force in the south as the CFC propped up “RUSRUS” against N3/PL.

Sometime during the conflict there was a rift between Black Legion and the CFC. I had contacted some members of BL at the time and the general sentiment was that the CFC now felt and acted as if they could tell BL what to do. Obviously Elo disagreed with having his alliance treated in that manner and the modern divide between the BL and CFC formed.

The Pieces on the Board Today

I’m writing this on the night of November 26th. With this conflict going as it goes, developments may appear that may conflict with this article or reinforce it. The rest should be written with that in mind.

The CFC had chosen Fountain as its new south facing border and yet they still need to contend with BL’s incursion in the heart of the north, NPC Venal. With Phoebe’s (rightful) limitation concerning jump range for capital ships, the CFC now needs to divide its capital forces across several regions. As Germany can tell you, two front wars are not the easiest to handle. However, if any sov holding entity can accomplish this task, it would be the CFC with it’s unrivaled logistical capabilities. This attribute will be stressed more than ever as N3 seeks to push into Fountain while Black Legion strikes out from Venal.

Handicaps of the Heavy Weights

It’s fair to point out that the CFC is not known for winning “hard wars.” The fall of BoB is often touted as a major landmark victory for Goons but many of the factors at play talked about have entered the realm of myth. Often it’s forgotten that soon after IT Alliance rose the Goons themselves lost all of their territory in an even more unflattering manner than BoB had. The Goon victory that saw them conquer the north from White Noise, had more to do with internal Russian politics than any sort of Goon military victory.

The CFC victory over Dotbros in Tribute likewise had non-military factors that played a major role. I believe I was one of the first writers if not the writer to point out that the conflict in Tribute was taking much longer than one would expect. This spawned the CFC motto “not winning fast enough” as a sarcastic meme supposedly at the expense of observers. The real meaning behind “not winning fast enough” was that when you see a 900 pound gorilla enter a boxing match with a middle weight fighter, you expect the gorilla to win. The surprising part is when the middle weight fighter manages to survive 8 rounds.

The Persian’s still won fighting the three hundred Spartans but today nobody makes movies in a positive light concerning their victory. Defiance of the few against the many is an extremely potent theme in the human mind and only those who fail to grasp those implications sarcastically remark “not winning fast enough.” Over all the war had a positive impact for both sides, the CFC updated their old doctrines and fought a tried and tested enemy. BL on the other hand was solidified as a strong military entity and its image grew to what we know today.

Fountain is held up as a landmark victory for the CFC where they fought and defeated not only TEST but the overwhelming majority of nullsec that formed up N3/PL. But the reality was that TEST was an alliance that had the numbers of Goonswarm but only a fraction of their leadership and even less organization. N3/PL’s involvement at worst, simply stalled the CFC’s advance against their former allies and the swiftness by which TEST leadership abandoned territory surprised even Mittani himself who had expected them to turtle up in Delve.

Some will take this as some sort of attack against the CFC or me saying “they can’t win a REAL fight.” Here’s the thing, to me a “real fight” is an idiotic concept by people who expect warfare to be some clean organized ritualized event with rules and boundaries. I’m the sort of guy that will bring five falcons to a twenty man fleet. I’ll headshot every single FC that speaks up on comms. I’ll throw dirt in my opponents eyes, drug their food, call their mothers tramps and their fathers bastards and do whatever else possible to throw my enemy off guard. You win by cunning and creativity, not by delusions of space bushido. Even the majority of the tenets that make real Samurai Bushido was mostly composed in an era that no longer saw much use for Samurai. Instead of actually fighting, Samurai wrote romanticized accounts of what in their view a Samurai was suppose to do. “Fight to the last man” is easy to write about when you’re fat on sushi, drunk with sake and sleeping in piles of prostitutes never having to follow through with the actions you romanticize about.

In actuality if the past has shown anything, it is that the CFC knows when to fight. You don’t fight an opponent at full strength or when terms are not favorable. We saw this during the Halloween War. Even though N3/PL’s Titan loss at B-R was unlike anything previously seen in magnitude of destruction, the CFC opted to pull out and cease supporting their Russian allies. Suddenly the “irrelevant backward NPC dwellers” became top priority for the CFC and everything on a front they were seemingly poised to win was dropped. But this was a smart move. Mittani knew that victory in the south was impossible as trying to prop up the divided RUS was as plausible as N3/PL propping up TEST in the earlier conflict. Instead they took B-R as a major victory for propaganda purposes and simply remarked that the RUS were unable to maintain their own front.

Black Legion has its own set of limitations. While BL knows how to win set piece battles and harass the hell out of the CFC in the north, their abilities on the meta level are lacking. BL can have 10 to 1 win ratio but if they don’t make any one of their victories progress beyond the battlefield, and the CFC can make their 1 win go further, it’ll be for nothing in the long run. Right now it seems highly unlikely that BL will swell in numbers and start conquering the north. They lack the numbers and logistical infrastructure and organization that the CFC has. Furthermore Black Legion lives or dies on Elo Knight. Say what you will but the guy has an amazingly powerful cult of personality that unlike the Mittani’s, is not at all ironic. People will form up, sit on a Titan for 4 hours and if Elo tells them, go dock back up without any groans of resentment. They’ll throw their life saving’s worth of capital ships into a fight if Elo tells them they’ll win.

This may sound like a remarkable attribute to have but unfortunately this also presents as a single target to attack for the CFC. I’m not talking about headshooting him in fleet engagements but rather attack him as a leader. If you manage to destroy Elo’s image and credibility and somehow remove him from the equation, Black Legion ceases to be the alliance that it is. The other major issue with the “elite pvp culture” entities such as BL is that they’re often fairly ego driven, something which I’ll get into later in the article.

shio_03

Strategies at Play

“Unde dai si unde crapa.” This is a saying that roughly translates as “Where you hit is not always where it cracks.” In essence it refers to how actions may have unforeseeable consequences, or results that are far removed from the source of the impact. This portion of the article is going to be a bit hard to follow for some as one aspect in one region of space will move us across New Eden to something that may be seemingly unrelated. Perspectives will shift from one side to another but I’ll try my best to explain as we go on.

So Black Legion can continue having success in their battles up north, but if no headway is made claiming territory and putting a bigger hurting on infrastructure and the cultural status quo of the CFC, nothing much will change. As difficult as it may be for some of the egos in BL to hear, the CFC will not lose their domains on losses in Venal. BL can hand the CFC stunning defeats, and so far that is how the fighting has gone. But without a solid push and take over of actual territory, there won’t be a lasting effect. What can BL do for this?

Mittani already referred to it in his “Vengeance is Ours” speech. Call upon N3 in the south west to push Fountain. Fatal Ascension, the CFC’s wardens in the west, have been handed stunning defeat after defeat from their opponents. If N3 makes an actual concentrated push into Fountain while BL steps up their northern campaign into threatening CFC sov, something will have to give.

There is also one more element that may be over looked: Absolution Alliance. Their leader is ex White Noise who may have some level of resentment toward the CFC. If BL would be willing to reach out to Absolution, they could have a third front pushing into the CFC’s renter lands of Vale of the Silent.

This all depends on how nicely the CFC’s opposition can get along with one another. It’s unlikely that N3 in the south west would necessarily exchange bad words with Elo and his leadership circle. One point of concern for them would have to be the relationship between Vince Draken and Sort Dragon. I can’t say I know how well they get along but the CFC would do well to try to drive a wedge between the two. Although they left the RUS hang high and dry, they could also motivate them to push N3’s holdings in the south and force N3 to fight a two front war as well limiting their ability to push Fountain.

Obviously it’s difficult to predict what exactly will happen. The actions and reactions of other players across the universe will likewise have a large effect on the war to be had. The wild wild east is turning into a large territory grab for the likes of Initiative, Gorgon Empire and Red Alliance. How much money would it cost the CFC to hire Pandemic Legion to pacify Venal and match Black Legion? These factors depend on the CFC’s leadership ability to maintain the narrative.

One last thing I would have liked to note, the CFC was foolish to allow Initiative to go to Curse. Instead they should have given them every reason possible to hold up the front in Fountain and pull whatever forces they could from the surrounding regions. I find it hard to imagine a successful defense of Fountain lead by Fatal Ascension. If Fountain does fall, which so far it seems like it likely will, Mittani would be wise to begin spinning this campaign as a “scorched earth tactic” to drain N3’s momentum into CFC core systems. In any case the loss of the south west was extremely costly with the Mittani himself remarking that the south west is “the greatest piece of realestate in Eve with the highest concentration of R64s.”

Obligatory “Winter is Coming”

Most recently the CFC destroyed a Space Monkey Alliance member’s Titan over the supposed claim he was a BL spy. While assurances have been made that there is “evidence”, it has not been forth coming due to *reasons.* The CFC’s only possible move here is to continue insisting on this narrative regardless of how true or false it may be. In any case they are down a Titan and have no victories against the BL as of yet to show for it. CFC state media has been extremely quiet concerning the many fights they’ve had both in Fountain and Venal. It will certainly be interesting to see how Phoebe plays out this winter. One thing is left without question, this coming winter war will be by far the most interesting one in half a decade.

– Seraph IX Basarab

  • Centrix

    Unless Darkness and Kadeshi start pulling there weight in these fleet fights against the CFC N3 won’t make much progress at all, I haven’t seen any more than perhaps 60 members from either Kadeshi or Darkness being involved in these fleet fights and no matter how many they get together NCdot’s numbers are greater and half of NCdot are Capital and Super Capital alts.

    You cant win a a small war against the CFC with participation levels like that

  • Centrix

    Unless Darkness and Kadeshi start pulling there weight in these fleet fights against the CFC N3 won’t make much progress at all, I haven’t seen any more than perhaps 60 members from either Kadeshi or Darkness being involved in these fleet fights and no matter how many they get together NCdot’s numbers are greater and half of NCdot are Capital and Super Capital alts.

    You cant win a a small war against the CFC with participation levels like that

    • Seraph IX Basarab

      Agreed. Only N3 can make N3 lose in Fountain…which may be very likely.

    • BahhDa

      Don’t diss Darkness and Kadeshi mate, last fight Darkness and Kadeshi managed to pull out a decent number of 250 pilots together. I myself was supprised but I give them much kudos.

  • fermaguel

    winter is coming? your about 3 weeks late here in the states, were already buried in Jack Frost Jizz

  • Long time wars favor the CFC so if N3 wants to knock us out they should kick it into high gear. But it is refreshing to know I am not the only one that finds space honour to be stupid.

  • Slevin-Kelevra

    N3 need to decide if they want to hold the East or take Fountain, there is no doing both. Personally I think the East is already lost, so give it up and go full push into Fountain.

    Obligatory VFK by Christmas.

    • II

      Querious, Delve, Period Basis for Scalding Pass and Insmother, i think pretty good exchange.

    • gg

      I’d say N3 has already written off the east holdings, everyone with a modicum of sense sees that. They are concentrating in the south-west, apparently, while milking the renting cow for as long as possible before the east is overrun. They will counterattack small incursions but they will not defend it from an organized push. That space is already counted as undefendable.

    • AFK

      Oh god, such a hard decision. We really MUST decide. lmao.

  • Bliss

    There are couple of things missing there, for once that N3 is fighting CFC in fountain on pretty even matters and thats without some of their alliances even deployed…for example Nulli is still south, pretending it’s defending their renters space. Also you speak about total absolution(absolution alliance are only their renters). They hardly have numbers to do anything at their current state. Buuut there already is Vale front. Triumvirate. is fighting CO2/Bastion on daily basis, well if they can dare to undock. Bastion even lost their JB tower in their home system….

    • Speedy

      All total Absolution ever do is sit in 6NJ and ship-spin. They’re no threat to anyone, except perhaps Gurista’s.

  • Senex Legio 1

    Good thoughtful article. Well organized and thought out. Interesting analysis and from the comments below, has provoked discussion rather than the normal stupid talk. Well done Seraph.

  • guess

    Seems currently CFC or at least FA are trying a slightly diff tactic of SBUing systems in querious in a attempt to divert NC. and darkeshi from fountain.

    • guest

      They assume it’s strategic to NC. and it probably isn’t – as that’s not where there assets are.

  • Gazookie

    Current tactic is 120 man Tengu fleets. We all know their aren’t 240 eyeballs behind those keyboards. so, in a month it will be what….25 man Tengu fleets, or 50 man fleets much less coordinated?
    Bah, get on with the SOV changes and make it all meaningless already!!!

    • Slevin-Kelevra

      you’re dumb

      • NC.Guy

        I agree

    • Varesk

      Black Legion has 1500 members, we usually get 10% participation in fleets, which would mean 150 people. 150 x 2 = 300.

  • Max

    Could have done without the space bushido paragraph, as it similarly went nowhere, and seemed to be a whole lot of writing to make no point at all.

  • Max

    Could have done without the space bushido paragraph, as it similarly went nowhere, and seemed to be a whole lot of writing to make no point at all.

    • Seraph IX Basarab

      The point was that it’s easy to postulate about standards when one doesn’t have to adhere to them.

      • Max

        Sure, but you didn’t draw it back to eve in anyway after a paragraph of explaining something that really didn’t need to be explained. You could have said “Elo complains about being headshot(and if you look at some BR’s he shows up like five times lol), but it doesn’t matter who’s flag you fly under, everyone trys to headshot FC’s.”

        There was simply no reason to talk about real life samurai for as long as you did, as it just seemed as I read it to be an off topic rant. I literally asked myself aloud “Why are samurai’s being talk about for so long” after reading the paragraph. That being said, you don’t need to defend your writing to me, I enjoyed the read, and just thought I would offer some constructive criticism on the one blackmark on the page.

        • Seraph IX Basarab

          That’s fine, just differing stylistic taste. I welcome it.

      • LexArson

        kind of like your posting lmao

        • Seraph IX Basarab

          That didn’t even make sense. Don’t hurt that troll doll top of yours thinking too hard.

  • LexArson

    STILL WAITING ON OUR KEBAB REMOVAL ARTICLE SERAPH AMERICA DEMANDS COVERAGE

    • loolie

      OY VEY

    • Seraph IX Basarab

      Still have to save enough money for a rain coat big enough to interview you about Syndicate: didn’t want that anyway

  • Admirator

    Very good story. It takes weeks to finally read something worthy on this site. Keep up the good work my friend and please ignore all the troll comments.

  • concerned whiteman

    A fair piece and well balanced. Anything is possible

  • AFK

    Elo will take goon coin again like a bitch. Once a sellout always a sellout.

    • Hobb3s

      We (BL members) actually asked him about that. You can be assured that CFC will only be paying the IRON price to BL from this time on. And looking at the huge spike in CFC kills on my kb this month I can tell you that they are already paying.

      • AFK

        I would love this, but, he’s got form when it comes to cfc so I’m not getting hopes up.

      • Leicester

        Best thing would be for Elo to take a big contract from goons to stop being naughty, and then use said cash to buy a metric fuckton of SBUs, Dreads, and anything else to increase their naughtyness factor.

        Nothing like scamming the scammers as sweet revenge.

  • NC.Guy

    Good article and yeah bl are doin great up north but I think you’re right they need to make a coordinated push on cfc with whoever else if fighting cfc in that area otherwise it won’t count for much

  • Red Teufel

    No one really gives a damn about taking sov until the new mechanics are released. What’s the point of taking a cluster of systems if in a few months ccps new mechanics limit you to 2 systems based on your activity lvls.

    • Seraph IX Basarab

      Nobody ever seems to care about sov…but then always do.

  • Varesk

    I am sure you didnt know this when you wrote your article, but Tri have announced that they are invading Vale of the Silent. With this announcement, the “non invasion” of Fountain and what BL do, the winter will be a fun time in the North, and its coming.

  • Deifirtep

    Quite an enjoyable read. Thank you.

  • Vaximillian

    While well written this article seems to take the position that all of EVE is still about CFC vs N3 and everyone else pretty much needs to pick a side. While all of EVE who have lived in 0.0 for the past 2 years has been made to make this choice, that time is rapidly passing. Many entities have already realized that choosing one or the other master is no longer the only option and have struck out on their own to grab space even now before the sov changes take effect. As a member of Ethereal Dawn who are currently trying to once again gain a foothold in our home of Etherium Reach I can say that simply putting forward Absolution Alliance as an entity that will choose either CFC or N3 to “assist” is selling them short. N3 and CFC will continue to fight each other and their propaganda machines will continue to preach “it’s us or them!” Who knows whether or not EVE would be better or worse if these two had or had not had a 2 year + cold war. No doubt (Gwen Stefani is a goddess had to say that) these two will remain powerful members at the table of 0.0. But the table is getting bigger. More seats will be added. And as the changes continue fewer people will look to CFC and N3 as the end all be all power brokers in New Eden.

    • Senex Legio 1

      That is a good point. As time goes on, these conflicts are going to turn more and more regional (if CCP implements their vision properly). That will make these groups still large, but hardly the only thing going on in the game.

    • NAdot

      You can rent from us, please contact Lady scarlet off good system in ER.

  • Observer

    Govlin has some significant distance to cover to get as biased as Seraph

    • Tiago D’Agostini

      There is no problem in a biased articles that is not trying to be news.. it is clearly an opinion article. Still far less biased than most CNN ones.

      • Seraph IX Basarab

        I’ve never been part of the CFC nor N3 so i’m not exactly sure what I’m suppose to be biased against/for.

    • Seraph IX Basarab

      In what way was a biased? I proposed both positive and negative aspects of both sides and described how both sides could employ tactics to win.

      • Menaiya Zamayid

        Speaking for myself and not as an SMA member, this article was well written it noted everything that is currently publicly known with some reasoned arguments. While I do not agree with everything about SMA. For the record I am loyal to SMA. Yes, Ivory being burned was something none of us are happy with. On the other hand, the evidence presented to us left some damning coincidences. Whether he was a spy or not is irrelevant, however when you have as much power as Ivory had in SMA, you better be damned sure the I’s are dotted the T’s are crossed and that you are beyond reproach.

        Back on topic though, Seraph, with as little bias as possible wrote a pretty compelling case for the current status of null-sec. I invite anyone to cite examples where he is “wrong” that doesn’t sound like a propaganda bucket.

  • Funkychicken

    absolution alliance, are you kidding?
    the whole alliance if full of ex NA. renters

    they couldnt even hold the space, against their neighbour renters

  • Simmering tensions

    It’d be unsurprising if SMA switches sides at an inconvenient time in this war…

    • Baboom

      And no one would be able to blame them…

    • Baboom

      And no one would be able to blame them…

    • Roy Oakes

      not gonna happen OOK OOK

  • Go BL & N3!

    RIP goons

  • Sieveboy

    I wish I could get hooked on the shit you take Seraph. Don’t know how to win a hard war? The various senior parts of N3 have faced off against the CFC 3 times being Tribute, Fountain and the Halloween war and have lost all 3 times. I remember in Tribute NC. putting all it’s timers into the AUTZ so their dominance there, given to them by Van Diemens Demise, ensured we took forever to grind the region down (not to mention the major break the CFC took after Vile Rat was murdered at Benghazi), they still lost. Fountain: N3 helicopter dicked around in their supers whilst PL had their backs. So we ground it down in bombers. Hard grinding, grifting work (with obligatory 50 cent in local when N3 tried to drop supers on bombers). Halloween war, well history shows that, apart from the fact I hate domi’s, the wrecking ball got reckt.

    • Seraph IX Basarab

      Dotbros fought a spectacular war in Tribute while fighting on two fronts and still defeating the CFC in the majority of pvp engagements. CFC won at grinding structures. Vince’s meta (or lack there of) and e-Romance did the rest.

      N3 gave a half hearted attempt in Fountain. Don’t fool yourself. Elo stated as much when I did my interview with him a year or so ago.

      Halloween ended with N3PL owning more systems in 0.0 than anyone else so…doesn’t look like a CFC win to me.

    • Seraph IX Basarab

      Dotbros fought a spectacular war in Tribute while fighting on two fronts and still defeating the CFC in the majority of pvp engagements. CFC won at grinding structures. Vince’s meta (or lack there of) and e-Romance did the rest.

      N3 gave a half hearted attempt in Fountain. Don’t fool yourself. Elo stated as much when I did my interview with him a year or so ago.

      Halloween ended with N3PL owning more systems in 0.0 than anyone else so…doesn’t look like a CFC win to me.

      • Sieveboy

        Tribute: CFC won at grinding structures. Which is how you win a sov war. Sov war under dominion cares not for elite PVP skills (or e-romances or falcons or politically motivated murder).

        N3 and PL was well committed with its super fleet in Fountain, hence the CFC’s super fleet sitting in POSes, until they had to rush back and regrind their renter space. End out come: CFC won at grinding structures. Don’t try and spin the Fountain war any other way, but a freaking long hard grind (also, Lyris Nairn is a goddam space legend).

        Halloween War: We still have 53 mobile structures (AKA titans) we wrecked and we forced PL out of the war (right after they entered essentially a non-aggression pact with the CFC) and hell camped S2N. I would note, you can’t claim on one hand that “Vince’s meta (or lack there of) and e-Romance did the rest” lost him the tribute war as a reasonable excuse, when RUS imploded in a similar fashion and some flipped sides and then claim that Meta as the loss for the CFC (which had already left the war) you have to consider both together or ignore them both. I won’t bother arguing the semantics of who truly won the Halloween war as the CFC were always “honourable 3rd parties”. I would also note that all that N3PL space came at a terrible cost in terms super capital fleets.

        • Seraph IX Basarab

          Nobody denies that the CFC won in Tribute. Nobody denies the Persians defeated the 300 Spartans either.

          Concerning Fountain, “committed with its super fleet” doesn’t really mean much in the pre-Phoebe world. TEST had always been a poorly structured alliance that had its hand held by the CFC. N3PL wasn’t about to fall on their swords for them.

          You forget that B-R could have gone either way very easily. Before B-R the CFC had ate a terrible defeat in HED-GP due in large part to Provibloc’s meddling in the area even prompting mittani to threaten the NRDS coalition if they showed up again. N3PL lost the battle of B-R but CFC/RUS lost the war.

          • Sieveboy

            Please stop comparing N3 to Spartans, they died out as inbreed country hicks, performing sadomasochistic circus theatrics for the Romans.

            Committed or not, N3PL propped up the stinking corpse of Test and made it far harder for the CFC in Fountain, otherwise, it wouldn’t have been a hard war.

            HED-GP was lost far more due to shitty servers crapping out than Provi or the wrecking ball. B-R was a CFC victory

            As for the Halloween war, Rus lost, but I take it from your lack of reply with respect to my comment on the Rus meta, you accept it as an equally valid point to your above comment saying the proto-N3 lost Tribute because of Falcon and e-romance.

          • Seraph IX Basarab

            I’m not comparing N3 with Spartans. I’m simply making the point that sometimes when you win, you lose and visa versa. You can look pretty good “losing” sometimes, better even than the winner.

            Yeah N3PL propped up TEST. But to go around and spin this as “the CFC defeated TEST + N3PL is laughable.

            Both HED-GP and B-R were due to shitty servers and Eve game limitations. Nobody should seriously take any of those battles as an honest example of either side’s fighting prowess.

            I’m not sure what point you were making concerning why Rus lost. RUS and N3PL were roughly equal in capabilities and numbers. The CFC could have pressed the war into a win. It’s quite impressive n3pl won in spite of b-r.

          • Sieveboy

            A lot of people make the point of comparing N3 to Spartans, which is an interesting analogy, when you ignore their military prowess and look at them from a societal point of view (it was one sick and unbalanced society they ran).

            As for Fountain, yeah we beat Test and N3PL used the first excuse they could to bail out and leave Test hanging out to dry (or commence rotting).

            The point I am making is after B-R, the CFC had set the conditions for Rus to complete the war. But ~Meta~ meant it didn’t happen. In your first post you claim Vince lost Tribute in part because of ~Meta~, that is all i am claiming.

          • Seraph IX Basarab

            I think both N3 and CFC are pretty sick and unbalanced which is why I steer away from the larger groups in Eve.

            N3PL never intended to prop up TEST to win any war and if they did they were lying to themselves. TEST was a weaker smaller less organized less capable version of Goons. TEST could have fallen even if only GSF invaded.

            Your point is bad because there was no “meta” reason that the CFC pulled out of the south. They could not integrate with their RUS partners, they could not continue the fight due to burn out. I remember around that time Mittani was even PAYING Goons to show up to fleets.

          • Dracvlad

            Seraph, the CFC won the Tribute war when they SBU’d and reinforced about 16 systems during the US TZ, at that point the Dotbros AU TZ who had the ability to deal with 3 system saves a day knew that it was over, so thye decision was made to pull back to Vale. It was that massive effort by the CFC which broke the resistance. I know, because I had my Amarr combat toon in NCDOT Au TZ fleets.

            In terms of this war, in an earlier thread I blasted NCDOT for not looking after their coalition members against PL, I called them morons. The way to defeat the CFC is to keep the pressure on from the south and the north, and all the time there is PL pissing around with their coalition members that is weakened in the south.

            The thing is that the CFC are so strong as a group that to even dent their morale Fountain, Vale and Tribute need to fall. And while I do see some of the coalition members of the CFC failing at that point, the Goonswarm Federation is just too strong and cohesive, I actually expect the CFC to give up more territory in a controlled gradual manner, but once they draw that line in the sand, I cannot see that being breached.

          • Seraph IX Basarab

            I don’t disagree with the CFC’s ability to SBU more systems than Dotbros had numbers to deal with. But my point was that it wasn’t a fight between two entities of the same weight class. I’ve criticized Vince again and again for mishandling the war concerning his relationship with BL AND fighting on a 2nd front with Solar. But yeah N3PL just doesn’t seem to “get it” in terms of cohesion the way the CFC does.

            Completely agree with your third point…unless the CFC continues to take itself too seriously and implodes. To be fair, Goonswarm is maintained as a strong entity by leeching in large part from its servant members. Can anyone say Rzr, FC or FA are anything but shells of alliances? Maybe i’m being a little harsh.

          • Guest

            Some of the CFC’s recent behavior causes me to question their morale. Denying that a massive fleet moved 40 jumps just to get blue balled? That’s such a trivial thing to lie about. If you can’t admit that then it implies tremendous emotional insecurity. The Rayonar affair belies instability in the leadership as well. Calling facts you don’t like “propoganda” shows you can’t face the truth.

            The goons have a great history of organizational identity, but recent events make it seem like the CFC’s morale is in crisis.

    • Pick a Name

      CFC lost the Halloween war, so not sure why you are trying to use that as an example of a win.

      • Sieveboy

        If by lost you mean failed to achieve desired outcome of large Rus block in south west then yes. The fact we had withdrawn from the war after wrecking PL and N3’s titans and hell camping S2N, leaving Rus to do their job (and fail at it), means what exactly: let me say it carefully for you: we withdraw from someone elses war after we achieved local victory. The fact N3 won the space back after we left is like saying AAA won the last war with the CFC, because they re-occupied their space after the CFC curb stomped them in 2011.

        • Pick a name

          So because of withdrew any N3 victory doesn’t count, I get it….. So by that logic Raidendot actually won the war for Tenal, because they withdrew from Tenal having won the isk war right? You clearly don’t have to answer that, we all know CFC won in Tenal. The point is, you are claiming victory for a war CFC didn’t finish, and also just happened to be on the losing said of. If RUS’s won, then sure…. claim victory all you want but that isn’t what happened.

          • Sieveboy

            By that logic, does any war ever finish? By your logic, the only way a war could finish is with your enemy being defeated and disbanded (like BoB). At some point in all Eve wars, someone says we won or lost and walks away leaving someone in a dominant position, someone withdraws from the war, runs to hisec/lowsec/wormhole or a spy humanly puts them down and out of their bitter misery. When the CFC left the Halloween war, that was their position with Rus. Most commentators noted that around February 2014 the war was largely over when the CFC withdrew.

            So, we can only conclude the only way to win a war in Eve is either: by disbanding your opponent, forcing them to concede defeat or walking out on a high note with war objectives achieved at that time or running for the hills screaming. In the Halloween war, the CFC and Rus achieved 2 and sort of the 3rd of these outcomes: Disbanding your opponent,they sort of achieved this when they forced PL out of the war, leaving N3 isolated. Walking out on a high note, yes the CFC left the war on a high. Forcing your opponent to concede defeat: arguably Progodleged did just that here on jesterstrek http://jestertrek.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/the-last-war.html?showComment=1391137820545#c5720501994898866560

          • Seraph IX Basarab

            And the war was over because N3/PL won the war against the CFC/RUS. B-R didn’t change that.

          • Thatguy

            Maybe not, but it was a nice kick to the egosacks.

          • Seraph IX Basarab

            Oh yeah and if you ask me, a long needed one.

          • Thatguy

            This latest debacle kind of makes it sound like another one is needed, if you ask me. So much chest beating it’s painful.

          • Pick a name

            Plenty of alliances have lost wars, and openly admit to it. It seems like CFC will never lose a war because some dude will always twist it, and move the goal posts so that they won, just like you are doing with the Halloween war. I find this amazing really, it’s as if you were sent a memo from HR telling everyone how they should feel about a particular subject, and/or how they actually won.

            Tribute war the objective is the only thing that matters and Dortbros openly admit they lost despite winning the isk war, Fountain war the objective is the only thing that matter and Test/N3/PL openly admit that they lost despite winning the isk war, Halloween war the objective apparently doesn’t matter, and CFC refuses to admit they lost because they clearly won the isk war even well N3 take the objective.

          • Sieveboy

            Let me quote myself for you: “If by lost you mean failed to achieve desired outcome of large Rus block in south west then yes.” we lost. I still like to point out that quote from PGL i linked above as well. Seems we all spin it a different way.

            Ninja edit:

            In the OP, Seraph said the tribute war wasn’t hard, yet he spins it to say that the CFC won because of meta, despite the proto N3 elite PVP. Whatever, sounds like a hard war the CFC won by kicking NC. out of Tribute (which they haven’t retaken), which was the CFCs objective, so they both won, hurray!

            In the Halloween war, the CFC won the isk war (a Tribute level victory) and failed to achieve the strategic objective, whilst N3PL kept their space, apart from an incident involving a certain S2N station. Victory for them as well, minus a large number of supers.

            Can we stop spinning this shit now?

          • Pick a name

            I honestly care about what PGL/Vince/Shamis/Grath says as I care what Mittani says, which is to say….. I don’t care at all. My opinions are my own opinions, and not that of someone that is perhaps a leader/FC/ or CSM. What they says may greatly influence what certain people think, say or do, but I have a mind of my own and really couldn’t care less what they think, or want me to think.

            As far as your question, you are the only one spinning victory’s out of loses, so you only you can answer your own question. I have openly admit to lost wars.

          • Dracvlad

            The key point in the Tribute war was when the CFC having dominated the EU and US TZ ‘s just reinforced and SBU’d metric shit ton of systems.in the US TZ which was impossible to deal with. That massive effort broke the back of the resistance, the Dotbros Au TZ.could only sort out three systems max per day and at that point they knew it was effectively over.

          • Seraph IX Basarab

            Oh the CFC did have a hard time in Tribute. I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about my point though. The CFC had a hard time, but with the numbers on paper, they shouldn’t have. They had more of everything. Let me try this: “It shouldn’t take those 3 guys so long to beat up that 1 guy…but it did.”

          • Guest

            The CFC didn’t lose their highsec POCO war either. They transferred the POCOs to a holding corp at the 11th hour and THAT corp lost them. The CFC even blew up their own reinforced assests to deny the enemy KB’s.

            http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2014/03/goons-didnt-want-these-regions-anyway.html

      • observer

        it’s been a while since you visited br memorial, my friend.

        • Guest

          “Battle” does not mean “war” illiterate one. On a side note, the side who clutches at ridiculous lies and half-truths is usually the side who doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

        • Baboom

          The CFC’s objective was to vastly weaken N3 and PL at the benefit of RUS. RUS is a former of itself now, and N3 and PL have more territory, income, morale and supers than ever before. How did CFC win this war?

  • Roy Oakes

    What nul sec warfare? Enemy Doesn’t show up anymore. the reffed y-2 station…………..final timer comes up and they dont even show up. station repaired, sbu’s destroyed, cfc op success with bit set of blue balls.

    • Ragvey

      You’re down a system and N3 is dictating when and how often they make you travel 80 jumps, as well as picking when they themselves will decide to fight. Yet you and Batto call this winning? Your side is doomed if this is any indication of your leadership’s cunning. Judging from Rayonar’s trial, it is.

      • Roy Oakes

        raynor has been found innocent, titan replaced. and travel 80 jumps? hell i didnt even go, there was no need. stayed docked up blue balled by n3. went ratting instead

  • wanna say “i was there”

    murdered in Benghazi huh…. Is that what were calling it now. Hey, its ok to say “the US should stop acting like the worlds police” until some person you vaguely know becomes an “example” of just how high that cost can be. LOL if your self respecting in any way what so ever, the “vile rat” thing should never come out of anyones mouth.

  • The Grid

    Good article. Having been in NCdot for a while I’d like to make the following observations:
    – During the Tribute war (which, although we lost, was one of the most fun in recent years) NCdot managed the opening of the Solar front just fine thanks to un-nerfed power projection. By leaving the caps out when possible, the conflict with Solar actually produced a whole bunch of true good fights. Toe-to-toe brawls in Lokis to remember. What tipped the Tribute war over was BL falling out.
    – Relations with Sort Dragon seem good after he semi-publicly ate humble pie and apologized for his power trip. No bad blood has been noticed between him and Vince, who has been much too AFG to matter in day-to-day operations anyway.