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So far I’ve bought and fit two ships for Incursion running. I bought a Raven to start with, and yesterday I re-fit my newly skinned Rokh to run Incursions. And that’s about all I’ve been able to accomplish. It’s not that I’ve not been trying either. Unfortunately Incursions suffer from the same problem they’ve always suffered from. There are more capsuleers wanting to run them than there is available content.

Yesterday I spent two hours in and around Bereye. That was where the U0R channel said they had a fleet active. I didn’t even bother to ‘x’ up. A quick count of the number of pilots in local and the number of Vanguard sites available showed more pilots than fleet slots. If you’ve never done this type of estimate with an Incursion site, here’s how it works. Assume all fleets are filled to maximum for the site you are aiming to run. That would be 10 ships per Vanguard site. Count the number of Vanguard beacons. If there are five beacons, you can assume they need 50 pilots to clear them. If there are over 100 pilots in local, as was the case in Bereye when I was there, you have more than twice the number as needed to run the sites. It’s a quick and easy way to determine how long your wait will likely be. In most instances, numbers like the ones I just listed mean you’ll get into a fleet in no time soon. That was bore out yesterday as I watched the U0R channel. Periodically the lead FC would list the waiting list. It never shrank the entire time I watched it except when people said they had RL stuff to which to attend.

I didn’t watch it the full 2 hours though. For a time I went over to Aice, the Staging System, and messed around with the Scout sites there. Even with four mag-stabs, a tracking computer with tracking script, and a Federation web I couldn’t always hit those damn frigates. However, with 20 kilometers range, an Optimal Range script and Null ammo they were toast! But within 15 minutes all the Scout sites were done, and there were over a dozen ships hanging around waiting for the next spawn. In a battleship, I’d be Johnny come lately at every new site that spawned. It just wasn’t worth my time.

That’s the same problem Incursions have always had. There is far more demand than supply. The Incursion channel itself had nearly 700 capsuleers in it. That’s just too many. It makes getting into a fleet a hit or miss proposition unless you can sit there for hours waiting on a list, doing nothing. I don’t know about you, but I’m not inclined to sit around and do nothing for hours. Mining is more stimulating than that. Incursion game play just isn’t compelling enough to make me sit around. I can make ISK in other ways. I can’t say this definitively, because I’ve not really made a lot of ISK waiting for Incursions, but I bet if you factored that wait into the ISK per hour calculation everyone is so fond of, you could do better running L4 Security missions. So unless you have an “in” with an Incursion fleet, you need to consider that wait.

To be certain, this is a high-sec issue. From what I can tell, no one ever really bothers with null-sec Incursions. I believe the same can be said of low-sec Incursions. Taking them on in that space is just too much risk. I don’t think anyone reading this will disagree when I say PvE fleets are no match for PvP fleets. It’d be like lambs in the slaughterhouse to try and run Incursions in insecure space. When a pilot can run a dead space complex and make as much ISK with less risk, and do it by themselves, who’d want to bother with an Incursion? I know I wouldn’t.

And aren’t Incursions in non-secure space a sort of lore breaker anyway? Sansha Kuvakei’s real beef is with the Empires and their invention the capsuleers. Why is he wasting his resources on non-empire space anyway? That seems like a really poor strategy. I’m certain there are those who know better than I. Can anyone explain why we even see Incursions in null-sec? Wouldn’t it make more sense if Sansha concentrated his forces against his hated enemy’s main bastions?

Here’s a thought. Since there is more demand for Incursions in highsec than supply, and no (or very little) demand for them in null-sec, why not just swing all those null-sec Incursions into high-sec? In the end, EVE Online is a game, for people who want to play the game. It is obvious to me more people want to play Incursion EVE in high-sec than anywhere else. Why doesn’t CCP give them what they want?

I suppose that’s the nuts and bolts of it, isn’t it? CCP will say EVE Online is their game and they know what’s best for it. They’ll say too many high-sec incursions will <insert negative consequence here, like breaking the economy> and they won’t ruin their game in that way. That’s wrong headed. It’s not their game. It’s our game. We pay for it every month. CCP may have created EVE Online, but like selling stock, they gave up absolute control of it the day they accepted their first subscription.

That makes CCP a service provider. Service providers cater to demand. Its obvious where the demand is. Big null-sec battles may give CCP their marketing spikes and make them quiver all over with new found popularity, but they need to see high-sec for what it is – the place where most of us play; the place that has the most demand. It’s incumbent on CCP to understand where the demand really is (that’s where the player numbers are if you haven’t figured that one out,) provide the service desired (as indicated by those numbers,) and make it work in a manner that doesn’t break the game – in that order. That’s their real world charter. Failing to fulfil demand will harm the game more than breaking the economy will. There are plenty of games out there with broken economies that still earn money. There are none that have survived a lack of participation due to unfulfilled expectations.

- Mabrick

He’s been around the block a time or five. With over 15 years of MMO playing under his belt and a memory that reaches back to pencils and dice, he offers his insights into the not so virtual reality we call Eve Online.

  • fail

    ITT: A half assed attempt to do incursions results in a player failing and blaming game mechanics…. srsly? there are a ton of incursion groups to get into and there is more than VG sites. Incursions are one of the easiest ways to make isk, your article is of such poor quality that I would have to insist you unistall eve because you are the aids that is killing this game. Maybe CCP should add an incursion finder que like wow so you dont have to do anything at all. Do your research before writing pieces like this…

    • lol

      wait WoW has an incursion finder? sign me up

    • Jaime Gomes

      The 15 years of MMO’ing under the belt are making him lose his mind.

  • Billbo

    “I bought a Raven to start with, and yesterday’
    ^This was your main problem right here. TLDR Missles are shit to use in incursion.

    • Sold

      Skill up, bro. Missiles are fine. If I were so inclined, I can run scout sites solo in a Hawk np. Overheat web once in a while, bring paste.

      • Jaime Gomes

        yep stick to scout sites. No real sites for you!

      • lol

        your comparing your assault frig to raven, A, that’s dumb, B, he’s talking about real incursion sites, not the ones you solo.

      • Chris

        It is not so much due to lack of dps. It is due to delayed damage.

        Also scout sites are shit.

  • dub

    This is laughably fail.

  • bla

    So, you bring a shitty ship for incursions, that will hold the fleets back when contested. (wtf a raven?) And are surprised nobody wants you in their fleet.

    Also: just a few days ago I was happily running incursion sites in low-sec. In the 5 hours we ran sites in there, not a single fleet bothered us.

    Third, you expect to get your content handed to you on a dish. Man up: this is eve, if you want to run incursions, nobody is stopping you from making your own fleet.

    In my incursion running days I never had to wait for a fleet. Why? I ran the darn fleet. I took in only the guys with the shiniest ships and my fleetmates loved me for it. We would win 90% of the times all the contests because of my policies. I made boatloads of isk. Why? Because I took the initiative myself.

    This is Eve, take your destiny in your own hands.

  • Faggot

    I hate fucking bears like you posting shit articles about crap that only a few players care about. Don’t fill high sec with incursions – they are shit. Learn to eve

    • theseconddavid

      Perfectly valid way to isk if you aren’t in some subhuman renter pet alliance.

    • Me

      People need to make isk, and not everyone has a isk printing T2BPO, so it’s ether bear here, or there.

      • Daniel Plain

        there are, like, 10 T2 BPOs that have a profit margin worth mentioning. the rest is useless. just sayin’

  • theseconddavid

    L2pirate hull and L2contest. That is all.

  • Sair

    I fucking hate when a nullsec incursion pops in the region I live in null(lost at least five ships to rats on gates lol?), and by and large I think that’s what most people that live in null think about them, so I wouldn’t mind if they removed them, or just kept it to one that pops in null at even give time.

    • I Incur

      They are just an annoyance. “Crap guys, we can jump caps into **** there is an incursion there.” Most null alliances would rather wait it out than actually run it.

      • hoodaticus

        If they would let us capsuleers use our full power against Sansha, we would gleefully helicopter dick incursions into oblivion.

        • Ryu

          you dont get anything if you exceed an amount of players in the site.. But you could get rid of them faster yes.

  • Jaime Gomes

    Was hoping for an interesting insight on incursion mechanics and how they affect the economy, how to change them in order to comply with the increasing player base, etc. Unfortunately you spent most of the article complaining about your shit incursion running ship and how no one helps the special snowflake you are. The solution you gave is a non-solution and you missed an opportunity to point at the elephant in the room: what is the point in incursions in losec but especially NULLSEC. NULLSEC incursions should be more then just a nuisance. NULLSEC incursions should be used as a SOV-Bat. Make incursions more preponderant on SOV warfare like for example: you don’t kill the mothership? lose all sov on the systems in question (even losing the stations if they exist). NULLSEC incursions were design to have that impact, however ccp conceded. That is what you should be focusing. Same as losec but with different impact. P.S: raven’s and rokhs are shit incursion ships.

    • hoodaticus

      They DO have that impact in nullsec. RUS RUS took an N3PL system by blobbing it in subcaps, knowing that the Wrecking Ball could not touch them with an incursion going on.
      They also have the effect of denying the economy of the system unless you squash them. I own two systems in 0.0 – it sucks believe me. If you don’t run them, two out of three sov indices collapse.
      If you’re going to strip sov and stations, fine, but take away the acceleration gates and cyno jammers because sov war is super war, and had the last incursion allowed me to use capitals the mothership would have died in seconds >:D
      If Sansha wants another piece of nullsec, it should have to face us at our full power.

  • woooo

    i have a demand that is not being met, therefore CCP doesnt listen to its player base. lol.

  • Ming Tso

    “Nobody likes doing Incursions in Low-Sec or Null-Sec because they’re afraid of getting 0wned. They should just move all the incursions to high-sec.”

    How about: “You’re out of incursions in High-Sec. Come to lowsec, bring cheap ships, take your fucking lumps and learn how to make something of yourself you useless shit-eating faggots.”

    Join Sniggwaffe Today! Ingame channel: “Join Sniggwaffe”

  • DD-Grunt

    I thought it is impossible to write worse than Gevlon Goblin does. But it seems I was wrong.

    • So Ming

      Thanks for nothing. Could you at least go into detail on what you didn’t like in the post. Suggest ways of improving or fixing it?

      Or is this just a troll statement?

      • lol

        Some things just can’t be fixed. Polished shit is still shit.

        • So Ming

          Granted it is one of those self serving pieces that don’t take into account the thousands of other players that inhabit the universe with him.

          So yeah it’s a nice polished turd.

          • Daniel Plain

            dude are you talking to yourself?

          • hoodaticus

            Are you gay?

          • Daniel Plain

            yes, why?

          • Javier Wilcox

            cant agree moar

          • Methylated Spirit

            You can’t polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter

          • Ming Tso

            Nice name.

  • lol

    Get a Logi ship to lvl five. You’ll have incursion fleets offering you their testicles to fly with them.

  • lol

    Some of us actually try to get together in Null regions to do Incursion sites. You did have a valid point about there not being enough of them…. until you went loco about high sec bears should get all of them. Sanshas hates capsuleers. Who owns Nullsec? If you can answer that then maybe you have a functioning brain stem.

  • John Bosch

    TLDR: Writer is too much of a pussy to run incursions in low/null sec.

  • Altaen

    Few weeks ago we had two Incursions in two different lowsec constellations in Molden Heath within a week or two of each other. TEST and some Russian corp moved in for both of them, and very coyly ran sites in both of them. They were super skittish, understandably. We did a get a fight out of the Russians once, so other than getting scouted and watching them POS or dock up they mostly completed sites undisturbed. Considering the cyno jamming effect, it should be quite safe when they spawn in an easy to scout pocket.

  • DarthChris00

    why they dont swing all the incursions to empire you ask? because there is only so many constellations in empire and there are people who enjoy other aspects of eve then inc a lot of them actually. highsec miners and mission runners and so forth. so if ccp loaded up high sec with 10-15 different incursions it would force those other people to either move of waste time doing nothing for at least a week (since even if you had enough inc for all the vg’s pilots i doubt the HQ pilots would care to move around and pop mom sites every day for random people. last i heard if they had to move 2 times a week they wouldn’t stop crying :P
    co basically if ccp wanted to rework inc’s so the waiting list isn’t that long they would be better off just adding more of each type of site to a system. instead of 6-7 vg’s have 14-20 or something. doesn’t really effect the isk per hour for the average player but allows more people to get in on it.

  • Oddsodz

    Alas I think the original poster has missed to point about “Contesting For sites” and or stepping up to lead his own fleet, Or looking to do more than just vanguard sites. For them that know, The real ISK in in the Assaults and HQ sites. Vanguard sites are just the quick 10m ISK printer, Do the Assaults and HQsites and you make real ISK from the LP. There are more than enough sites in hisec, You just need to man up and make your own fleet and battle/contest for that ISK. CCP is not here to give you free PLeX

    • Rhianna Ghost

      And with AS-Sites you are mostly alone. Getting a second fleet in System is remarkable, more than that is almost unheard of.

  • Say My Name!

    raven for uncursion running?

    stopped reading after that, incursions are like nerd forums, if you dont know whats going on, lurk.

  • Batelle

    buy shit t1 ships. Never get invited to incursion fleets. WORKING AS INTENDED. At least the people with meta4 fit machs are TRYING. You are not even trying.

    • Group PvE

      Say you have 4-6 players with under 1 year playing time in your corp and you want to do Group PvE. What can you do ?

      level 4 missons in high sec ? ……. No, bringing more then 4 pilots is pointless
      level 5 missons in low sec ? ……. No
      Incursions with T1 battleships ?…… No
      Sleeper sites in wormholes ? ….. pilots learn tech2/tech3 cruiser please

      • Me

        To go from a T1 BS to a faction BS takes like an extra week to sit in, and like a month and a half for max skill.

        • PvE

          Does only having a faction hull reduce the waiting time ? I dont think so

          • Me

            Yes, many community’s won’t even let you fly with them unless you fly a faction hull, many community’s will for instance invite a mach over a mael

      • Batelle

        there are TONs of viable configurations for group pve in wspace. There’s also plenty of group pve in nullsec, and yes, lowsec too. And if you really want to do incursions, you can train and do it, and it doesn’t require proper skills. The real problem here is that players that take the effort to lead incursion groups get to take their pick of who to include, which isn’t a problem at all.

        • PvE

          It’s fine with me that well trained pilots fly their expensive fleet doctrine’s and earn good money.
          Its not fine with me to see no reliable group PvE in high sec beyond expensive incursion fits. Maybe this is more of an issue of level 4 misson design then one of highsec incursion ?
          What I’am not saying is, that T1 battleship pilots should earn the same amount of money skilled incursion pilots do… am saying that we are missing an easy accessable place for group PvE in high sec.

          • bls

            Go mining.

  • Chris

    I don’t see the issue with there not being enough highsec incursion sites to fill demand. In fact, I think that is a very good thing for incursions as a whole.

    It encourages competition for highsec sites. Do you want that easy isk? Well, you got to make the investment first. Or alternatively, go do them in lowsec. Eve isn’t supposed to hold your hand the whole way. You should have to take risks or be forced into the shit tier income levels.

    If you were to change incursions, I am in full support of further reducing the income from highsec. As it is, there is very little incentive for one to venture into lowsec or nullsec to run them. Reducing the income will encourage more people to venture into the riskier areas with more rewards. Even better, others will go there for the sole purpose of disrupting the incursions runners.

  • GFY

    Sounds like rest of the newbs, and whiners that come into incursion’s. Next you’ll be crying that you flew all the way to one incursion, then the mom got popped early, and you didnt get to run.

    As I tell the other’s…..This isnt Incursions Online.

    Edit: Youre also so blinded by your tears, that almost everything in this article is wrong.

    • Neutral Noob

      So rude! What’s the matter with people?

  • Methylated Spirit

    First of all, you are in a fail incursion channel, second of all, you are using fail incursion boats, 3rd of all, if you dont even x up, how do you KNOW there is no room in the fleets for sure? Jesus Christ.

  • abc123

    ANOTHER FAILED CAREBEAR WHINING POST
    .
    Don’t worry! Cry enough and CCP will fix for you so you can make your uber safe ISK’ies and then come to zero zero and shit up our space so you can cry more about how zero zero is screwed and they break out the nerf bat on our fun. Please just STFU and go away.
    .
    LOSER!!

    • zyx987

      Wow! You come across as a total douche. I’m not saying the content of what you said was wrong. In fact, I agree with you and this piece is written from a standpoint of ignorance but really, there’s no need to be such a dick about it.

      @OP – As several people have mentioned, get a faction BS or tech II logi, fit it properly for Incursions (you can find incursion fits if you google, ask people or just look at fits others link in incursion channels) and join an incursion group.

  • Jedran

    On a similar note I went into a wormhole and ran a site and got no bounties. Obviously this is an oversight so I have a petition in to get my bounties.

    Seriously though A Rokh and a Raven? If you were trying to not get into incursions then gratz you brought the right ships, though WTM will take a rokh, I think. Also who is U0R? FYI the ingame inc channel has no bearing whatsoever on fleets being run and the local count really only matters if there is no station in system. You can also watch site turnover on your overview to get an idea of how many fleets are active. Also I’m happy to say I’ve been doing incursions for over a year and have never run a scout site.

    How to get in an inc fleet:
    1. Join multiple channels on your tank type (armor or shield) and look over the fits posted till you find one you are happy with (fitwise, timewise etc…)
    2. X up in community channel with a ship that is often accepted in fleet:
    – Shield: Nightmare, Macharial, Vindicator
    – Armor: Legion, Kronos, Paladin, Vindicator, Amarr or Gallente Navy Variants
    Make sure you have tech 2 guns and that your ship is fit according to the doctrine of the community you want to fly with, preferably with faction modules but at least with t2 modules
    3. Profit

    Alternatively:
    1. Train into a t2 logistics ship for the tank type of your choice after watching community channels to see what is accepted or needed most.
    2. Fit according to the doctrine of the community you want to fly with, preferably with faction modules but at least with t2 modules and have at least logistics 4 for beginner communities and logistics 5 for advanced communities then X up in community channel.
    3. Profit

    • Deifirtep

      What this chap said.

  • Eric loto

    You should have gone with the one about ships not spinning themselves. I know it was just a draft but the arguments were far more compeling .

  • Eric loto

    Pro tip: link a blinged out faction ship, bring t1 meta at last second.

  • Royally

    I dont have a special “in” with any incursion community. But when I x up, I usually get into an HQ fleet within the hour. I dont “bling” fit either.

  • Alan Artemisa

    Dear Mr Mabrick,

    You said several things in your post, some of them have been listed below:

    – Too many people want to run incursions, so there is not enough room for all of them.

    This is incorrect. Today, I ran a fleet for about 1,5 hours in the Panorad incursion (the current location of the aforementioned U0R community). Today, there were only a few communities there, DIN-Flotten (a mostly german group that usually flies HQ sites), U0R, a Vanguard community, an armor community of which I don’t know the name and my own little group, SWA Incursions, who only run once or twice a week. There were about 300 players in the local incursion chat. There were two other highsec incursions up as well, where the other big groups are deployed.

    – You can see if there are too many people in an incursion by dividing the local count through the number of sites, multiplied by the maximum fleet size for those sites.

    I’m sorry to say so, but this is incorrect as well. If there is an incursion near a mission hub there will be a lot more people in system then when it is in some backwater area, but even there you can have mission runners and miners in local (and I didn’t even start about off grid boosters or storage Orca’s). It can be a good guesstimate, but it’s not even close to being accurate.

    A better way of estimating the “saturation” of an incursion system is counting the number of sites. An unused system should have 6 available sites (please correct me if I am wrong here), if two more or less efficient fleets are running it should be down to 3 or 4 sites. If there are 3 active fleets the number of sites should be around 3 and if there are more than 3 fleets the number of sites will go down rapidly, approaching zero.

    – Running Scout sites

    Don’t do this. Scout sites have a payout that is way too low to make ISK out of. You would’ve been better off fitting mining lasers and going for an ore anomaly.

    – People don’t run low-/nullsec incursions.

    They are done. They may not be farmed as much as highsec incursions, but I have noticed incursion influence going down several times in those low- or nullsec incursions, which means sites are being completed.

    – Incursions and lore; Sansha is against capsuleers and against the empires, so why does he send his minions to nullsec?

    Null security space is the place where capsuleers build their empires, also, he needs new minions, so he abducts them from nullsec, seeing that his highsec operations are… not going as good as planned.

    A friendly suggestion would be getting a logistics cruiser or a faction battleship. I know several communities that will take t1 battleships, but all fleet commanders love faction battleships for their higher DPS (and thus, faster site completion)

    As a last thought, I would like to point out that joining one incursion channel won’t get you in fleet very fast. The better tactic is finding out who are active at your location and joining their channels as well.

    Fly safe,

    Alan Artemisa

  • lol

    ISN ftw … Fuck this shitlord.

  • http://tipiaks.forumactif.com/ Irya

    high sec incursions …. so need more high sec incursions BUT none want to run the already existing in LOW and null …

    seems legit.

  • exo slave

    The HS incursions are bigger then you think as long as people are not popping the kundalini you there can be upto 500 running sites across all the spawns TVP ISN Warp to me and DIN all run HQ around the same times dureing the EU into the US

    even HS islands are no longer out of reach for some of these groups TVP has started a HS island ship rental program all you need to do is get a clone on the island

    • Nobody

      2-MNY AKRO NIMS

  • sdfko

    TL; DR: high sec is overcrowded but i’m too scared to go into low sec or null

  • Altrue

    TL; DR: Incursions are generating MASSIVE amounts of money but fuck the economy, lets increase that number by two or three and ruin the economy!

    • Mike

      In reality incursions are not that big of a isk faucet because like 70% of the isk you make in it is sunk into LP. L4 missions are worse for the economy because of how little is sunk into LP, and ratting in nullsec is hands down the worse for the economy because zero isk get sunk in LP(it’s just a pure isk faucet).

      You probably shouldn’t talk about the economy of EVE, as you clearly have no idea how big of a isk sink LP is.

    • Theryn

      That was very a ignorant statement. People doing incursions, and FW do make a lot of isk, but the amount of LP they get makes the isk faucet of the activity very small to the point that as far as the health of the economy, incursions, and FW are perhaps the best or healthiest. The only isk making activity’s that have less of an impact on inflation is farming sleeper sites, moon/ore/gas mining, manufacturing, and trade.

      One thing that is unquestionable is your standard nullsec ratting is hands down the most damaging isk making activity to the economy.

  • Manny theMiner

    How do the mechanics work, can you just form up your own fleet and go in?

    • Exporer

      Yes

  • World of Eve (WoE)

    Article was questionable, but readable. Until this part: “It’s not their game. It’s our game.”
    That is where you completely lost me and all credibility.
    Eve is CCP’s game. We’re just allowed to live and play in New Eden any way we see fit WITHIN the bounds and rules CCP has created for its world, New Eden.
    That also does NOT mean CCP is a “service provider” either.

    I am very much against trolling ppl but…
    The entire article has a non-eve mmo mentality of entitlement that is loathsome to say the LEAST. (others in the comments thus far have had been far more eloquent)

    tl/dr: Go back to WoW Mabrick

  • Nobody

    “That’s wrong headed. It’s not their game. It’s our game. We pay for it
    every month. CCP may have created EVE Online, but like selling stock,
    they gave up absolute control of it the day they accepted their first
    subscription.”

    Yikes… That’s not how it works buddy. If you go to Disney World and pay to get in, you don’t get a share of Disney stock. It’s their game, and the deal is that people willingly pay to play it while they willingly accept money to let you. Both parties participate completely willingly. By paying you get your one month subscription, which they deliver; you do NOT a stake in the company. Otherwise it would cost a lot more than it does!

    You paid, you got your game time, that was the deal. If you like, it, sign up again, if you didn’t, then don’t. It’s that easy. Nobody owes you anything else. CCP owes you the game as much as you owe them extra subscription money. Saying it’s your game is as outrageous as if CCP demanded retroactive subscription rate hikes and claimed that it’s THIER money so you better pay up. No, sorry, that wasn’t the deal. You had a deal, both sides lived up to it, that’s it.

  • elnator

    I’m just trying to figure out why anyone would [want to] run a rokh or raven in incursions ;)

    Also, agree with everyone else… this is CCP’s game, not yours.

  • lol

    ISN … ISN … ISN … ISN … ISN … ISN … ISN … ISN … Booyeah.

  • NotTheBrightestFolks

    Yikes, a call for regulating access to PvE content? WTF is happening to Eve?

    Every other MMO has been doing this for years, why would you destroy Eve and start doing it now?

  • rick james

    Get a better ship… but you are correct in saying eve is our game ccp knows this without us servers close simple as that