Comments

OK. Some of you are going to want to argue with me because I’m about to say something contentious again. Ready? Theme statement first:

5-15 man fleets are dying in EVE Online null-sec except as a tool for ganks.

At ganks, I assure you they are still excellent. But if the age of the 15v15 or 15v20 or 15v25 fight isn’t over, it will be over very soon. It’s dying of four things simultaneously:

  1. The overall skill point inflation of EVE Online players as the EVE population ages.
  2. The prevalence of easily accessible data on fleet doctrines and the spread of those doctrines.
  3. The risk aversity of EVE Online players, particularly two- to four-year-old players.
  4. The ease of getting newer EVE Online players into T1 logistics ships.

Once upon a time, there were ~elite PvP~ alliances in this game. And these alliances excelled at using three things to defeat larger fleets (“punching up”): higher skill points, better fits and doctrines, and the ability to bring link ships. They used these advantages to take on somewhat larger fleets, or to use skirmish tactics to nibble at the edges of much larger fleets. Now everyone has those things. Is that a bad thing? No! Not at all! But it’s having an impact, and that impact is to drive the size of fleets on the low end upward.

“Small gang” in this game is becoming 30-40 ships, not 5-15.

This impact doesn’t seem to be affecting the “solo” pilot too much, except the solo pilot tends to have two or even three (or four) link ships. And this impact doesn’t seem to be affecting what I would call “micro-gangs”: five or fewer. These fleets can much more easily choose their battles — though they sometimes run afoul of those last few 5-15 man fleets and get one or two of their number ganked. But what I would have previously called a small gang of 15 is finding it nearly impossible to find equal size fights. The opponent of a 15 man gang isn’t another 15 man gang. More often than not, it’s a 30 or 40 man gang.

My alliance-mate Namamai had a lot to say about this topic on somethingawful recently and I want to quote some relevant bits (edited here and there for clarity):

Here’s the issue: these days, a micro-gang (5-15 people) is good for ganks only. And in particular, it has three flavors:

  1. Use moderately priced ships. You gank one or two ships at a time, and then either cloak up (in the case of black ops) or scatter (in the case of inty swarms / sniper BCs).
  2. Use cheap ships. You gank one or two ships at a time, and then die to the response fleet and not give a fuck. (Nano Thoraxes, etc.)
  3. Use powerful but slow-moving ships. Everyone runs from you until they have a proper defense fleet up, and then dunk you.

At best, you’re getting a easy (almost boring) gank and then blue-balling a response fleet.

Now, if you were playing a few years ago, there were tons of examples of a small, well-comped fleet being able to take a few kills off a fleet, and maybe even do sustained fighting with a larger fleet for a bit, and then disengage. There were a couple ways to do it, most of them focusing on speed (Vagabonds, 100MN Tengus, arty Tornados/Muninns, etc) or highly flexible damage projection (Zealots, Rail Proteuses, Navy Apocs with a single triage carrier, etc). These days, trying to do this kind of stuff will largely get you killed, with little or nothing to show for it.

He goes on to list a few reasons that he sees, which I more or less agree with (again edited, this time for brevity):

  • Warp speed changes. If you’re flying anything cruiser or bigger that can’t cloak, hostile inties and dictors will absolutely get ahead of you, no matter where you warp.
  • Changes in fitting meta. Railguns and sentry drones provide huge flexibility in range and tracking. The strength and relative cheapness of sensor-dampening ships remove many of the advantages of kiting/skirmish fleet comps. There are relatively few “hard counters” left in the game.
  • More accessible logistics. Logistics is no longer the realm of bitter-vets who train for months to be good at repping; there are now T1 logistics ships, and most fleets with 20+ people will have 3 or more logistics ships.
  • A general raise in median SP, especially with respect to capitals. Having a carrier alt isn’t the sign of an old player anymore; it’s rapidly becoming the norm. Capital escalations are common.

Now again, this is not to say you can’t get kill-mails with such a gang size. You absolutely can. But they’ll be in singles, pairs, maybe as many as five. You can gank mining ships, you can gank ratters. But as Namamai puts it, you can’t get a “really pounding-pulse we-won-a-sustained-fight-with-1/3-their-numbers PvP, of the kind that used to be possible just a year or two ago.”

~Elite PvP~ is dying. It’s not dead yet. But it’s falling over, and the wolves are circling.

Before you yell at me, remember: I’m talking null-sec. I know this size gang is still prevalent in low-sec, particularly in faction warfare. I know this size gang is sometimes worthwhile in w-space. I know it has its place in high-sec war-decs. But I’m talking the old-style roaming gang of 2009-2010 that used to be as common as dirt: ten DPS ships, two or three tacklers, two special teams ships (usually a Lach/Arazu and a T2 logi), probably a dictor. That meta is what’s dying.

Now here’s the tricky part: there’s not going to be a lot of metrics that can be used to prove this thesis statement. When two 15 man fleets meet in null-sec these days, more often than not a fight doesn’t happen. And since the fight doesn’t happen, it doesn’t generate kill-mails. Therefore: no metrics. One side looks at the other and sees four Exequrors, or two Scimitars and a Falcon, or a pile of T3s and simply decides not to engage. The typical 15 man fleet out there right now is four inties, six DPS ships… and four special teams ships which more often than not are four logi. Or perhaps three logi and a dictor or three logi and a Rapier or Loki. Or if they’re hunting your 15 man inty gang, maybe a Keres.

To break even two logi, you have to bring 50% more numbers. To break three, you have to bring almost double, or a couple of jamming ships. Think that 15 man gang is gonna engage if they see 25 or 30? Or if they see you brought two Falcons, Griffins, or Kitsunes with you? Hell no. They’re gonna disengage, safe up, and let that gang go by. Therefore no fight, therefore no kill-mails, therefore no metrics. This thing is happening silently.

Which is why instead you’re seeing these 15 man fleets dunk on a few ratters or a couple of mining ships or perhaps a solo boat or two. They’re doing their hunting in renter space, usually going for things that can’t fight back. Again, ganks are cool! I like kill-mails as much as the next fella, maybe more. But I also like fights and in this fleet size they’re becoming a hell of a lot tougher to come by.

Meanwhile, the prevalence of cheap logistics, good numbers, alts, and high SP — plus the ever-growing desire to dunk these 15 man gangs — is pushing the “small gang” up to 30 or 40 ships. I’m not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing. But I am saying it is a thing. Inflation isn’t just hitting the cost of things in the game. It’s hitting the size of fleets in the game too.

– Ripard Teg

If you would like to read more we invite you to visit his blog here.

1,211 Comments

  1. I couldn’t refrain from commenting. Perfectly written!

    June 14, 2019 at 08:04 Reply
  2. I think this is a real great article post.Really looking forward to read more. Much obliged.

    June 14, 2019 at 10:21 Reply
  3. HelpfulUsefulValuable infoinformation. FortunateLucky me I foundI discovered your siteweb sitewebsite accidentallyby chanceby accidentunintentionally, and I amI’m surprisedstunnedshocked why this twist of fatecoincidenceaccident did notdidn’t came abouthappenedtook place in advanceearlier! I bookmarked it.

    June 15, 2019 at 09:44 Reply
  4. TerrificGreatWonderful articlework! This isThat is the type ofthe kind of informationinfo that are meant tothat are supposed tothat should be shared around theacross the webinternetnet. DisgraceShame on the seeksearch enginesGoogle for now notnotno longer positioning this postsubmitpublishput up upperhigher! Come on over and talk over withdiscuss withseek advice fromvisitconsult with my siteweb sitewebsite . Thank youThanks =)

    June 16, 2019 at 08:24 Reply
  5. AwesomeVery goodSuperbWonderfulFantasticExcellentGreat sitewebsiteblog you have here but I was curiouswanting to knowcurious aboutwondering if you knew of any user discussion forumsmessage boardscommunity forumsdiscussion boardsforums that cover the same topics talked aboutdiscussed in this articlehere? I’d really lovereally like to be a part of grouponline communitycommunity where I can get advicefeed-backresponsesopinionscommentssuggestionsfeedback from other knowledgeableexperienced individualspeople that share the same interest. If you have any recommendationssuggestions, please let me know. Bless youThanks a lotKudosCheersMany thanksThank youAppreciate itThanks!

    June 16, 2019 at 20:19 Reply
  6. GreatExcellentGood blogweb sitesite you haveyou’ve gotyou have got here.. It’s hard to finddifficult to find qualityhigh qualitygood qualityhigh-qualityexcellent writing like yours these daysnowadays. I reallyI trulyI seriouslyI honestly appreciate people like youindividuals like you! Take care!!

    June 17, 2019 at 08:34 Reply
  7. This will be priced at perusing, I like the idea a lot. I am about to take care of your unique satisfied.

    June 17, 2019 at 10:19 Reply
  8. Really appreciate you sharing this post.Much thanks again. Great.

    June 17, 2019 at 16:02 Reply
  9. UsuallyNormallyGenerally I do notdon’t readlearn articlepost on blogs, howeverbut I wish towould like to say that this write-up very forcedpressuredcompelled me to take a look atto tryto check out and do soit! Your writing tastestyle has been amazedsurprised me. Thank youThanks, quitevery greatnice articlepost.

    June 17, 2019 at 18:30 Reply
  10. Informative and precise Its hard to find informative and precise info but here I found

    June 17, 2019 at 21:27 Reply
  11. You may have a very good layout for the blog i want it to utilize on my web-site as well

    June 17, 2019 at 22:53 Reply
  12. I’m trying to find apparel and also style ideas at a reasonable costs for a woman over 25 … Anyone know any kind of great websites or blogs?. Feels like whatever I locate is either geared towards teens or is remarkably expensive couture … Thanks!.

    June 18, 2019 at 08:13 Reply
  13. I enjoytake pleasure inget pleasure fromappreciatedelight inhave fun withsavorrelishsavour, lead tocauseresult in I foundI discovered exactlyjust what I used to beI was taking a looklookinghaving a look for. You haveYou’ve ended my 4four day longlengthy hunt! God Bless you man. Have a nicegreat day. Bye

    June 18, 2019 at 09:32 Reply
  14. very couple of websites that come about to be detailed beneath, from our point of view are undoubtedly very well worth checking out

    June 18, 2019 at 18:30 Reply
  15. I am reallyactuallyin facttrulygenuinely thankfulgrateful to the ownerholder of this websiteweb sitesiteweb page who has shared this greatenormousimpressivewonderfulfantastic articlepostpiece of writingparagraph at hereat this placeat this time.

    June 19, 2019 at 07:44 Reply
  16. Im grateful for the article.Much thanks again. Great.

    June 19, 2019 at 16:33 Reply
  17. Way cool! Some veryextremely valid points! I appreciate you writing thispenning this articlepostwrite-up and theand also theplus the rest of the site iswebsite is also veryextremelyveryalso reallyreally good.

    June 19, 2019 at 20:38 Reply
  18. HiWhat’s upHi thereHello to allevery oneevery single one, it’s reallyactuallyin facttrulygenuinely a nicepleasantgoodfastidious for me to visitgo to seepay a visitpay a quick visit this websiteweb sitesiteweb page, it containsconsists ofincludes valuablepreciouspricelessimportanthelpfuluseful Information.

    June 20, 2019 at 07:13 Reply
  19. When I originallyinitially commented I clicked the “Notify me when new comments are added” checkbox and now each time a comment is added I get fourthreeseveral emailse-mails with the same comment. Is there any way you can remove mepeople from that service? ThanksBless youThanks a lotAppreciate itCheersThank youMany thanks!

    June 20, 2019 at 22:43 Reply
  20. ExcellentTerrificWonderfulGoodGreatFantasticOutstandingExceptionalSuperb post buthowever ,however I was wonderingwanting to know if you could write a litte more on this topicsubject? I’d be very gratefulthankful if you could elaborate a little bit morefurther. ThanksBless youKudosAppreciate itCheersThank youMany thanks!

    June 21, 2019 at 08:01 Reply
  21. I wanted to thank you for this good read!! I absolutely loved every bit of it. I have got you saved as a favorite to check out new stuff you post… https://penzu.com/p/413c9d31

    June 21, 2019 at 15:18 Reply
  22. Thanks again for the blog post.Really thank you! Really Great.

    June 21, 2019 at 19:47 Reply
  23. HiWhat’s upHi thereHello Dear, are you reallyactuallyin facttrulygenuinely visiting this websiteweb sitesiteweb page regularlydailyon a regular basis, if so thenafter thatafterward you will definitelyabsolutelywithout doubt takegetobtain nicepleasantgoodfastidious experienceknowledgeknow-how.

    June 21, 2019 at 22:17 Reply
  24. Thanks for sharing this very good write-up. Very interesting ideas! (as always, btw)

    June 21, 2019 at 22:19 Reply
  25. You are my inhalation , I own few web logs and occasionally run out from to post.

    June 21, 2019 at 22:26 Reply
  26. thank you web site admin

    June 22, 2019 at 07:07 Reply
  27. HiHello there, I foundI discovered your blogwebsiteweb sitesite by means ofviaby the use ofby way of Google at the same time aswhilsteven aswhile searching forlooking for a similarcomparablerelated topicmattersubject, your siteweb sitewebsite got herecame up, it looksappearsseemsseems to beappears to be like goodgreat. I haveI’ve bookmarked it in my google bookmarks.

    June 22, 2019 at 07:25 Reply
  28. HowdyHi thereHey thereHiHelloHey! Someone in my MyspaceFacebook group shared this sitewebsite with us so I came to give it a looklook it overtake a lookcheck it out. I’m definitely enjoyingloving the information. I’m book-markingbookmarking and will be tweeting this to my followers! TerrificWonderfulGreatFantasticOutstandingExceptionalSuperbExcellent blog and wonderfulterrificbrilliantamazinggreatexcellentfantasticoutstandingsuperb style and designdesign and styledesign.

    June 22, 2019 at 15:08 Reply
  29. Teen Ladyboys http://bit.ly/ladyboyhub

    June 22, 2019 at 18:49 Reply
  30. HiWhat’s upHi thereHello to allevery one, the contents presentexisting at this websiteweb sitesiteweb page are reallyactuallyin facttrulygenuinely awesomeremarkableamazing for people experienceknowledge, well, keep up the nicegood work fellows.

    June 22, 2019 at 22:55 Reply
  31. HowdyHi thereHey thereHiHelloHey! Someone in my MyspaceFacebook group shared this sitewebsite with us so I came to give it a looklook it overtake a lookcheck it out. I’m definitely enjoyingloving the information. I’m book-markingbookmarking and will be tweeting this to my followers! TerrificWonderfulGreatFantasticOutstandingExceptionalSuperbExcellent blog and wonderfulterrificbrilliantamazinggreatexcellentfantasticoutstandingsuperb style and designdesign and styledesign.

    June 23, 2019 at 06:32 Reply
  32. SweetWonderful blog! I found it while browsingsurfing aroundsearching on Yahoo News. Do you have any tipssuggestions on how to get listed in Yahoo News? I’ve been trying for a while but I never seem to get there! ThanksMany thanksAppreciate itCheersThank you

    June 23, 2019 at 13:56 Reply
  33. I like thejust like the valuablehelpful informationinfo you supplyprovide for youron yourin yourto your articles. I willI’ll bookmark your weblogblog and testchecktake a look at againonce more hereright here frequentlyregularly. I amI’m ratherquitesomewhatslightlyfairlyrelativelymoderatelyreasonably certainsure I willI’ll be informedbe toldlearn lots ofmanya lot ofplenty ofmany new stuff rightproper hereright here! Good luckBest of luck for the followingthe next!

    June 23, 2019 at 14:59 Reply
  34. Your positions continually have got a lot of really up to date info. Where do you come up with this? Just saying you are very resourceful. Thanks again

    June 24, 2019 at 05:28 Reply
  35. Ahaa, its nicepleasantgoodfastidious discussionconversationdialogue regardingconcerningabouton the topic of this articlepostpiece of writingparagraph hereat this place at this blogweblogwebpagewebsiteweb site, I have read all that, so nowat this time me also commenting hereat this place.

    June 24, 2019 at 07:37 Reply
  36. This is a very good tip particularly to those fresh to the blogosphere. Simple but very accurate info Many thanks for sharing this one. A must read post!

    June 24, 2019 at 07:51 Reply
  37. This is my first time visitgo to seepay a visitpay a quick visit at here and i am reallyactuallyin facttrulygenuinely impressedhappypleassant to read alleverthing at onealonesingle place.

    June 24, 2019 at 15:58 Reply
  38. Piece of writing writing is also a excitement, if you be acquainted with afterward you can write or else it is complicated to write.

    June 24, 2019 at 20:35 Reply
  39. HelloGreetingsHey thereHeyGood dayHowdyHi thereHello thereHi! This is my first visit to your blog! We are a groupcollectionteam of volunteers and starting a new initiativeproject in a community in the same niche. Your blog provided us valuableusefulbeneficial information to work on. You have done a marvellousoutstandingextraordinarywonderful job!

    June 25, 2019 at 07:14 Reply

Leave a Reply to uniform shirts Click here to cancel reply.