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OK. Some of you are going to want to argue with me because I’m about to say something contentious again. Ready? Theme statement first:

5-15 man fleets are dying in EVE Online null-sec except as a tool for ganks.

At ganks, I assure you they are still excellent. But if the age of the 15v15 or 15v20 or 15v25 fight isn’t over, it will be over very soon. It’s dying of four things simultaneously:

  1. The overall skill point inflation of EVE Online players as the EVE population ages.
  2. The prevalence of easily accessible data on fleet doctrines and the spread of those doctrines.
  3. The risk aversity of EVE Online players, particularly two- to four-year-old players.
  4. The ease of getting newer EVE Online players into T1 logistics ships.

Once upon a time, there were ~elite PvP~ alliances in this game. And these alliances excelled at using three things to defeat larger fleets (“punching up”): higher skill points, better fits and doctrines, and the ability to bring link ships. They used these advantages to take on somewhat larger fleets, or to use skirmish tactics to nibble at the edges of much larger fleets. Now everyone has those things. Is that a bad thing? No! Not at all! But it’s having an impact, and that impact is to drive the size of fleets on the low end upward.

“Small gang” in this game is becoming 30-40 ships, not 5-15.

This impact doesn’t seem to be affecting the “solo” pilot too much, except the solo pilot tends to have two or even three (or four) link ships. And this impact doesn’t seem to be affecting what I would call “micro-gangs”: five or fewer. These fleets can much more easily choose their battles — though they sometimes run afoul of those last few 5-15 man fleets and get one or two of their number ganked. But what I would have previously called a small gang of 15 is finding it nearly impossible to find equal size fights. The opponent of a 15 man gang isn’t another 15 man gang. More often than not, it’s a 30 or 40 man gang.

My alliance-mate Namamai had a lot to say about this topic on somethingawful recently and I want to quote some relevant bits (edited here and there for clarity):

Here’s the issue: these days, a micro-gang (5-15 people) is good for ganks only. And in particular, it has three flavors:

  1. Use moderately priced ships. You gank one or two ships at a time, and then either cloak up (in the case of black ops) or scatter (in the case of inty swarms / sniper BCs).
  2. Use cheap ships. You gank one or two ships at a time, and then die to the response fleet and not give a fuck. (Nano Thoraxes, etc.)
  3. Use powerful but slow-moving ships. Everyone runs from you until they have a proper defense fleet up, and then dunk you.

At best, you’re getting a easy (almost boring) gank and then blue-balling a response fleet.

Now, if you were playing a few years ago, there were tons of examples of a small, well-comped fleet being able to take a few kills off a fleet, and maybe even do sustained fighting with a larger fleet for a bit, and then disengage. There were a couple ways to do it, most of them focusing on speed (Vagabonds, 100MN Tengus, arty Tornados/Muninns, etc) or highly flexible damage projection (Zealots, Rail Proteuses, Navy Apocs with a single triage carrier, etc). These days, trying to do this kind of stuff will largely get you killed, with little or nothing to show for it.

He goes on to list a few reasons that he sees, which I more or less agree with (again edited, this time for brevity):

  • Warp speed changes. If you’re flying anything cruiser or bigger that can’t cloak, hostile inties and dictors will absolutely get ahead of you, no matter where you warp.
  • Changes in fitting meta. Railguns and sentry drones provide huge flexibility in range and tracking. The strength and relative cheapness of sensor-dampening ships remove many of the advantages of kiting/skirmish fleet comps. There are relatively few “hard counters” left in the game.
  • More accessible logistics. Logistics is no longer the realm of bitter-vets who train for months to be good at repping; there are now T1 logistics ships, and most fleets with 20+ people will have 3 or more logistics ships.
  • A general raise in median SP, especially with respect to capitals. Having a carrier alt isn’t the sign of an old player anymore; it’s rapidly becoming the norm. Capital escalations are common.

Now again, this is not to say you can’t get kill-mails with such a gang size. You absolutely can. But they’ll be in singles, pairs, maybe as many as five. You can gank mining ships, you can gank ratters. But as Namamai puts it, you can’t get a “really pounding-pulse we-won-a-sustained-fight-with-1/3-their-numbers PvP, of the kind that used to be possible just a year or two ago.”

~Elite PvP~ is dying. It’s not dead yet. But it’s falling over, and the wolves are circling.

Before you yell at me, remember: I’m talking null-sec. I know this size gang is still prevalent in low-sec, particularly in faction warfare. I know this size gang is sometimes worthwhile in w-space. I know it has its place in high-sec war-decs. But I’m talking the old-style roaming gang of 2009-2010 that used to be as common as dirt: ten DPS ships, two or three tacklers, two special teams ships (usually a Lach/Arazu and a T2 logi), probably a dictor. That meta is what’s dying.

Now here’s the tricky part: there’s not going to be a lot of metrics that can be used to prove this thesis statement. When two 15 man fleets meet in null-sec these days, more often than not a fight doesn’t happen. And since the fight doesn’t happen, it doesn’t generate kill-mails. Therefore: no metrics. One side looks at the other and sees four Exequrors, or two Scimitars and a Falcon, or a pile of T3s and simply decides not to engage. The typical 15 man fleet out there right now is four inties, six DPS ships… and four special teams ships which more often than not are four logi. Or perhaps three logi and a dictor or three logi and a Rapier or Loki. Or if they’re hunting your 15 man inty gang, maybe a Keres.

To break even two logi, you have to bring 50% more numbers. To break three, you have to bring almost double, or a couple of jamming ships. Think that 15 man gang is gonna engage if they see 25 or 30? Or if they see you brought two Falcons, Griffins, or Kitsunes with you? Hell no. They’re gonna disengage, safe up, and let that gang go by. Therefore no fight, therefore no kill-mails, therefore no metrics. This thing is happening silently.

Which is why instead you’re seeing these 15 man fleets dunk on a few ratters or a couple of mining ships or perhaps a solo boat or two. They’re doing their hunting in renter space, usually going for things that can’t fight back. Again, ganks are cool! I like kill-mails as much as the next fella, maybe more. But I also like fights and in this fleet size they’re becoming a hell of a lot tougher to come by.

Meanwhile, the prevalence of cheap logistics, good numbers, alts, and high SP — plus the ever-growing desire to dunk these 15 man gangs — is pushing the “small gang” up to 30 or 40 ships. I’m not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing. But I am saying it is a thing. Inflation isn’t just hitting the cost of things in the game. It’s hitting the size of fleets in the game too.

- Ripard Teg

If you would like to read more we invite you to visit his blog here.

  • hmm

    “OK. Some of you are going to want to argue with me because-”

    no one likes you negro

  • I eat chicken

    Uhm its dying because there are idiots out there isboxing 5-10 Tornados killing it.

  • Provi Miner

    you don’t get out much do you? First off why would anyone get into a 15 on 15 fight except for gf’s? Perhaps your article should be retitled the end of “funzies” in Internet Spaceships. Funzies are what you are talking about. Now don’t ge me wrong, like you said low sec is chock full of funzies. But do you seriously think in null if you go visit someone’s home and disrupt their “business” they are going to say “hey boys and girls its a 15 man gang lets form up a 15 man fleet to fight them”? No its not going to happen unless they know they can curb stomp the invaders. Like wise the invader isn’t going to take a fight they are unsure of. Well they won’t till A: everyone is bored stiff B: they get caught on a gate C: they need to get home fast (via medical clone).

    • BitterVet

      You must be really new at Eve because you obviously don’t know what the OP is talking about.

  • LexArson

    that’s a lot of words to say: rote kapelle finally realized roaming syndicate is dead.

    • Noisrevbus

      Haven’t they been lowballing in nano-BC for years? Surely, they’d realize it was dead there and then, or at least respirated :P.

  • Dirk MacGirk

    come to nullsec looking for gudfites. find people not interested in gudfites. they just want to make you go away through either dunking you or boring you.

    • Lee Thrace

      By “people” you mean you’re alliance and coalition?

      • Dirk MacGirk

        “your”, but sure. because it’s so different over here versus the vast emptiness of the drone regions. You’re probably part of the l337 groups playing spaceship samurai that just can’t get fair fights and now get grumpy about it. I get it. everyone else is bad. Please tell me you have a monocle. Oh wait, haven’t I seen you in 0-W? I know there were quite a few from Common Sense Ltd stuck in station out there yapping in local. Were you one of them?

        Yeah, maybe there isn’t a cyno on every ship and a titan/blops behind every neut that comes rolling through. But it happens enough nowadays that the pvp he is referring to above is getting increasingly rare. Small gang? Maybe. But just as likely it’s bait. Most of you l337 “pvpers” aren’t looking for fights anyway. You’re looking to dunk risk-free and in the end you just diminish the pool of people willing to fight. But no mad bro. I’m sure you lift.

        • Noisrevbus

          Dirk,

          Can you explain to me how numbers surprising you from a cyno is any different than numbers surprising you from an out-gate?

  • Billbo

    Plenty of gudfights in Delve,, just don’t turtle up and hide when we undock a Home Defence fleet or come to fight in coward ships (ie Railgu’s)

  • TeaBone

    How do you really know this? When does your group ever leave Syndicate? I like your writing but maybe you’ve had to resort to talking about what others are telling you instead of experiencing it yourself. Anyway your premise is not what I personally am experiencing in my little part of Null, maybe we are the exception.

    • Noisrevbus

      Rote, along with essentially all NPC-null groups, used to roam far and wide.

      The fact that they no longer have a reason to leave their immidiate hot-drop zone is part of the issues the article touches upon.

      Don’t get me wrong, I find it boring as fuck to only fight my neighbours too or that the only interesting content those groups see inbetween each other is various ~20 man hotdrop action, but that all comes back to the same thing as everything else – expensive roaming ships are not competetive anymore. You can use them best you like, but that doesn’t take from the fact that they are not in the actual race :).

  • Jaime Gomes

    Few things i might add. The prime income from newer players come from ratting/missions/salvaging/mining. Since i first started playing this game the mission rewards, ratting drops, salvage and loot haven’t changed much. With the exception of drones now giving rewards and the meta 0 items being replaced by the dammed scrap metals the primary income for new players didn’t increased for the last 3 years. Obviously the value of loot/salvage and mining increased as a result of inflation however it did not increased proportionally to the price of modules, ammo, ship hulls and most importantly plex. When i started i could buy a fully fitted ass frig under 20 million and plex was around 360. Nowadays plex is 630 and the ass frig is arround 30 million. This makes people allot more risk adverse and they will take more fwiends to fwy. One other major cause is the new player friendly corps (eve uni, BNI, RVB, etc). They are important to anchor people in eve online and to teach them the ropes of the business however unintentionally they promote bigger fleets to take on not that big of targets. The last thing i want to add is the fact that most players are either in losec or highsec. Null is empty as fuck and the concentration of players on the first ones will translate into bigger fleets. So the small gang scale is pretty much 15 to 20 dudes and up with more people playing the game.

    • Neutrino .

      I took a break from the game in 2011 and just came back. Everything is now 2 – 2.5 times as expensive as it was, but incomes are either static or nerfed.

      Wspace is still a decent income, but wspace is starting to look crowded to the extent that you’d need to maintain a cap fleet in there just to hold onto your system.

      The choice for a small outfit seems to be, 1) do three times as much grind to be able to field the PvP ships you used to. 2) join some blob coalition whose moon funded SRP can keep you equipped.

      Neither is particularly attractive.

      • Noisrevbus

        Read the article and see that people don’t field the ships they used to anymore. In any space you will see the proverbial “Nano Thorax” Namamai talks about in the article’s citations and it really does that niche well enough while the niche itself is surrounded by other derivative issues encroaching upon it and making it more and more narrow.

        Also, consider that while new income streams are not higher, they are more accessible today.

        I can start the game anew and with “knowledge” access 100m ISK/hr fountains with Frigates. I can do one pass at such a fountain and fund the ships the character is able to fly (and access fountains with) into the absurd. How many Frigates can you lose for 100m and how long will that take you? So, what do you do? Invest in a more expensive ship? Well, there hardly are any you are encouraged to play. That same 100m will cover most of your needs and you are faced with some sort of ridiculous financial independence or financial head-start that is really difficult to squander.

  • Nobrain

    And I thought there was something good in the article. Meh.

  • Corebloodbrothers

    I say: welcome to providence, the true null sec thunderdome. The inevitbale blob is comming your way , but gangs like tri murder alot, but it isnt changing tbh. Except the warpspeed, which is tackled easy with a defense buble, a burn and kill of tackle. To bad there is no data on it, but if i look at my own killboard is see a increase in provi. With old jumpbridges blobbbin was also easy, old north soace same, with shared intel. It doesnt help that blocks and donuts are bigger, u ll find a easier reason there. If i post a fleet and i have 10 k, i ll have to work hard to make not a big fleet. Unless its your goal to roam small your fleet will grow. To me, the tier3 start was more wrong then the current ceptors, kiting murder and warp of without true engagement. Where we see now again a variety in doctrines, with drone nerve that will only increase. Paper rock scissors. For me roaming 40 jumps of gay empty renter space is more wurrying. Push for localised meaningfull hubs, but as also just part of developing game. For now, want small scale pvp, come to provi, and dont overstat your welcome, as yes blobs will form

    • Jin

      “For now, want small scale pvp, come to provi, and dont overstat your welcome, as yes blobs will form”

      So you’re basically proving his point.. if he goes to Provi, he’ll probably gank a few noobs and then get blobbed by 5x his numbers. And a defense bubble + burning off in the next system doesn’t work, because ceptors either hold cloak or just warp to your next gate. Either way you’re stuck logging off in the system or warping to safes. New mechanics mean that you can’t outpace a fleet with a large number of ceptors.

      • eurynome

        agreed, been there done that, this is exactly what happen in provi

  • bigbonedbobby

    its a sandbox,it develops the way it does because the players make it so,if players make it this way there is a good reason,small scale pvp is live and well in lowsec,i dont think that is just because of mechanics….i think alot of people got sick of the blobs and the big blocks bullshit….so they LEFT NULLSEC,and that leaves the blobs in their staging systems.

    Lowsec is small scale because that where we move when we get sick of the politics and just want the fun brawls without the tacked on demands of some ego maniac and his circle och backstabbers called high command…..the game isnt dying it doesnt need nerfing its working as intended.

    This goes for every part of the game that has developed naturally and not by predesign…stop asking ccp to change the natural flow….if i wanted a forced playstyle i would not play a sandbox MMO i would play a FPS console singleplayer game.

    Its not broken…the game isnt supposed to be a stasis of some romantic snapshot your brain have of “the god old days” that you have distorted over time.

    • Tiago D’Agostini

      There is your mistake.. the FORCED play stayle happens exactly because things are unbalanced.. as they are now. THe fact aht you can predict most of the likely fleet encounters and compositiosn nowadays proove that there is an imbalance.. and that the sandbox is not in a healthy state.

      • Chris

        Or that the meta has not evolved and put the current doctrines out of the meta yet. Even when no balance changes happen, very rarely does the meta not change.

    • Noisrevbus

      I’ve never understood this horrible sweepstake paraded around by the witless…

      “It’s a sandbox, players make trends, durr durr”.

      Any trend is always rooted in mechanics and mechanical changes; especially in a game as old as EVE where *really* being ingenious is difficult as all of us know so much about the game already and the cycles it has gone through.

      Small scale PvP in Lowsec is also absolutely pointless, done in cheap ships for meaningless losses that promotes numerical superiority and the only thing that keeps the play-at-war in your subset of lowsec safekept from the infamous “blob” is that no one has cared enough to properly dick with that content. What happens to Amamake every time PL goes “home”? It fucking dies, and PL do not even try to kill it.

      So if you look at the existing content in any untouched shithole of the fragmented sandbox: there is no mechanic there to rely on that actually keep the big nullsec entities from entering that fragment of the sandbox and shark it like a japanese middle-aged man. Even WH with it’s defensive collapses and volume-controls is not impenetrateable by a large-scale, time-biding, invasion. The tedium involved discourages, but hardly makes powerplay unplayable.

      People like you who refuse to look at those facts and spurts nonsense behind some entitled illusion of safety are so annoying that I hope one of the big powers ruins your sandbox, and does it soon enough, to prove that point to you the hard way. I would love to see PL capital-projection across an entire FW-theatre or CFC powerplaying all factions in both theatres, to game the system and cut all and any travel pipes with massive camps for to elicit easy kills in TiDi.

      Think about how epic the screams of a thousand entitlement-samurai would be :).

  • Pick a name.

    This pretty much has nothing to do with the state of EVE, and everything to do with the state of which Rota Kapelle conducts themselves. I have yet to fight them when ether ten plus dudes jump in via titan, or they drop two carriers on us. That only needs to happen a couple times before a particular group just won’t engage you anymore. Of course according to this blog post, unless you are willing to fight their roaming gang plus whatever happens to be sitting on their titan, you are risk averse.

    • dichzor

      but of course you are risk averse, if you haven’t died to them a few times repeatedly. Its just empty rhetoric, designed to provoke an emotional response. In my eve experience, faggots that tell you that you are risk averse, are just that, namely faggots.

  • [RH-] BCPRO

    I can see it both ways but I am definitely not a fan of the t1 logi. Yeah it gives scrubs a chance to do something useful but with the median age of eve players these days you gotta do something to get the nubs involved. Bringing a drake is just not an option. Lol

  • Tiago D’Agostini

    Both T1 logi and t2 logis are too powerful. Remote repairers shoudl get a base range increase of 100%. THe logis range bonus should be divided by 3 and their repair bonus HALVED.

    • Chris

      T2 logi are fine.

      T1 logi are a bit too strong imo. They are almost as good as T2 logi except for tank.

  • Garandras

    I do see where you are coming from, But there are still alot of small groups out there doing PvP.. I know my mates and myself are constantly doing small gang PvP… we will have between 3-11 in fleet (when at the higher number atleast 2 will be boosters) and regularly take on larger fleets then our own. We also take out various ship types.. flying frigs all the way to dreds
    IMO small fleet 2-10 man fleets are the most fun

  • Maraner

    Absolutely agree with this article. Our corp has been a small gang / 0.0 roaming setup since the beginning. We often roll around the 10 or so number in fleet and we are going a long long way to get a fight. We are often engaging numbers much greater than we would like to just to have some pew pew.

    The days of sindicate small gang pvp appear dead, that or we get hot dropped by much larger forces. The growth of the large 0.0 alliances has had a major role in this, why fly in a fleet of 15-20 if you can do 50.

    you might get around the 10ish to 15 in low sec, but always in faction war space, and usually in the nano setup Ishtars etc. Never a battleship gang to be seen :( brawling BC’s are a rare find, the attack BC gangs are also few and far between.

    And yes the warp speed changes was a major mistake, I understood the rationale for it, but trying to fly a mixed fleet setup now is just not possible.

    Good article, well written. hope someone a CCP is reading this.

  • Lee Thrace?

    why did you delete my post about alternative causes?

  • Lee Thrace?

    Fleet mechanics and navigational shortcuts incentivize blob style war. A new pilot can choose between the long and short route to rewarding PVP.

    The difficult road requires a pilot to study how tracking, signature radius, and optimal range affect the damage they are projecting or mitigating. They have to learn how to quickly process data from the transversal, and orbital velocity columns. They need to develop a solid understanding of the every ship, think through their own fittings and learn to anticipate fittings. They must learn navigational techniques such as manual orbiting, spiraling, and etc… They also need to develop strong situational awareness. Pilots who play this way feel their losses a lot more because they are solely responsible.

    They find a group with players who have learned the above mechanics. They receive doctrinal fittings from their alliance or corp, and sometimes purchase a ready made ship on contract. The orbit button allows them to completely avoid navigational decisions. Target broadcasting eliminates the need for them to learn how to order targets. The FC must be situationally aware but the rest do not. After a victory the pilot feels he has one. If he dies it wasn’t his fault because he was just following orders.

    This is similar to any military structure, however the orbit button, and broadcast option allow one person to give orders that allow the rest of the fleet to relinquish a large degree of control.

    Because it is easier to outsource all of these decisions most people do so, and thus blob warfare grows.

    I have done both, and although I am not very good at flying on my own my solo victory’s are the ones I cherish most.

  • a small gang dude

    Proliferation of hot dropping is missing too. The community as a whole has easier access to hot dropping ships than years gone past. I mean…people barely even roam anymore…

    • Dirk MacGirk

      excellent point. And probably a big reason why any particular neut or gang has to be looked at as a possible bait cyno. But it is one more element why the typical response these days is blue ball or blob.

    • I just do not know

      This is something that almost made me quit just recently, in the end I have stayed, where I am all I see is AFK cloakies ready to drop BLOPS on you, its easy to avoid and incredibly lazy on their part. And where I am I have not seen personally a single roam for months, my normal mode of operation is to see if I can get them to come to the station so I can scan their ship for cyno’s.
      Also the other day I decided that we would go after one of these BLOPS groups, had a discussion with someone who used to do this and found out just how well tanked a properly set up BLOPS gang is, conclusion, its going to be a real pain to kill this group, oh well, best to leave them camping the best system in the constellation, so in the end we just leave about 5 cloaky campers in there with him and no one goes in there at all now.
      The reality of Eve…

      • eurynome

        even in lowsec, this is now the norm.

        the only “fight” you can draw, will be a BC / strat/ whatever is tanky, or even a small gang.

        the split second you engage, or in gang case, you take the edge, cyno goes on, and your 5-10 men gank end up facing 30+ BC/BS or blops… often with 1-2 triage carriers

        if you are lucky, this happen at station, so you use carriers…yeah, no, the second your carriers are engaged, say hello to the 15 aeons……

        that’s what is happening since a year (was happening before, but since a year this is what pvp is 95% of the time).

        so now, pvp is either use alphanados, so you stay out of range, and gank ppl running anoms / missions / sigs….

      • Noisrevbus

        Tell us…

        How well tanked is that BLOP-formation?

        I still consider them quite nice potential targets given their juicy over flimsy status, or did CCP actually go full retard on the BLOP-issue as well and listened to the people who wanted to give them better tanks and resists a year ago? And I missed that change?

    • Noisrevbus

      Is that because people have access to those ships, or because those ships provide access to content the subcaps no longer do?

  • some dude

    so bitter!!
    Let´s go to provi and grind some ano´s.
    Good work jester, as always (not).

  • byebyenull

    Especially talking about this size of fleets in null, i think it is also indirect linked to the situation in null going on atm. The last year in special we’ve seen the size of the super coalitions grow and thereby the size of the amount of space they control.

    Why is this important? Well just think about it, the renters that are in the renterspace of these coalitions dont feel the need to field against these small fleets cause they are mostly occupied by collecting their income to make sure they can pay their bills.

    The reason they dont wanna field a small-fleet of their own is simply due to the fact they already know the gang will fly on and as soon as they come close to the homelands of one of the coalitions they will be blobbed out of space, so why as an small alliance try to field and fight if you know the blob is waiting for them.

    In my opinion, if we still had more smaller alliances controlling different areas of null and we dont see any big coalitions, these fleets will come back as there will be more smaller fleets roaming around either for defence of their own home space or just to harrass your close neighbours to intimidate or disrupt their operations.
    All in all the growing of big coalitions and no prospect for smaller corp/alliances to get into null will indeed kill the sight of these size gangs, null sec wise at least.

  • I swear I am not Luwc

    k.

  • Blah blah blah

    Another yada yada Eve is not as I would have it post. People are lazy. This is a sandbox. Create your own content and stop relying on CCP or trends or the FOTM. Get of the freakin’ couch.

  • Diskutant

    Certainly one part is true: logistics ships make it a lot harder to kill anything. While this is true for both sides, it favours the larger side, because the smaller side is unlikely to break the larger side’s reps. So the smaller side will not even kill a few of the larger fleet.
    If you could expect to chew at least a little bite out of the enemy fleet before going up in flames, I am sure a lot more pilots would be willing to engage even against bad odds. And undock smaller fleets in the first place.
    Also, new pilots should be equally valuable in alternate ships in which they can learn to fly and learn other mechanics, especially ewar and individual navigation. As it is, they are very much encouraged by their elders to hop into a t1-logiship until they can afford and sit in the F1-monkey-ship.
    I am very much in favour of nerfing logistics heavily.

  • BitterVet

    The good old times of 15vs15 Vagabond fights is dead because we all who enjoyed this gave up and quit.

    We were a corp (yes not a fucking alliance, a corp) living in NPC nullsec and we’ve slowly our way to live wither and die. Nobody undocked anymore, or only after enough of a blob was formed to cancel the change of fight.
    The wolfpack was mocked. People prefer to bore themselves to death in blob fights to be ~relevant~ in the grand scheme of things.

    We had to evolve.
    First we used the Burn Eden tactics so we could fight the blob, but it got nerfed bad.
    We joined alliances, to get in the sov game. We had to recruit to contribute to the blue blob. Trap chars into supercaps, shoot structures, join CTAs at stupid off timezones…

    Over time, one by one, we’ve all quit.

  • Monte

    I fly in small gangs on a regular basis. I am I’m the off timezone for my alliance so unless it is a stat op it is uncommon that we ever have more than 20 in fleet on weekdays. Often it is just 3 of us chasing a random neut. I tend to avoid known hot dropping alliances. Maybe you should look at your own alliance culture for an answer. If you hot drop regularly don’t expect good fights.

  • Ciaphas Cyne

    facwar. tons of good fights. we get 5v5s. 10v10s. 20v20s and even 5v10s all the time. no gank fleets here. straight up mini fleet fights with ewar and logi support. makes the game fun. why complain that people are making good fleet comps? “whaaa people use logi now wtf!!!”

    jester stop crying, placid/black rise will heal you. right now you just sound like a whiny little turd. “meh my elite pvpers cant find gudfights….cause you wont bring the comps i know i can beat….bully!”

    got issues with logi? bring more damps. got issues with ecm? bring more damps! got issues with damps? bring more damps!!!!

    • LexArson

      Rote went to Black Rise for 2-3 months on a roadtrip last year and we all agreed it was the best thing ever. Then we had to go back to Syndicate, for no other reason than “it was our home.”

      Now they’re leaving Syndicate for Provi. Idgi.

  • Noisrevbus

    For me, the big killer of the “10 vs. 1-100″ spectrum is none of the things either Ripard or Nanamai lists. I give them both as much that cheap ships in key roles (Frigates and Cruisers with EW or Logi profiles) surely do not help, my contention is not really based on losing engagements to these gangs – it’s the cheap ships’ discouragement to engage in the first place; or the discouragement for me to fly the kind of ships Nanamai lists in the first place.

    Even in the rare event that I would win a 10 vs. 100 scenario that had been engaged I still end up losing or not winning anything. The risk I take is rewarded with nothing. The time I invest in going to their space (provided I am a roamer) is rewarded with nothing. Outright trying to live in their space (in the case of deep-space NPC-pockets, or a covert deep-safe lifestyle) is much less rewarding than simply basing out of elsewhere.

    So, yes, trying to deal with 1:5 numbers under superpowerful EW and Logi is definately one side of the coin. However even the outlook of flying that “Nano Thorax” myself is discomforting and would have me bored out of the game before I’d be left concerned with how the larger group would kill me. Similarily, it’s not that the cheap Frigate, saved by cheap EW and rebuffered by cheap Logi, tackling me is much of an issue – it’s the fact that I have no reason to engage those ships in the first place and will merely stretch my toungue out at them and move on. They provide no income for me, they inflict no loss on my opponent and they are not worthy of my time or the risk of taking them on in any challenging scenario.

    That is the real problem, and it’s as omnipresent in NPC-null and Lowsec as it is in Sov-null, so it’s hardly a problem attributed to Sov-space or coalition-behaviour alone.

    • Noisrevbus

      So many left out words (I need to keep reminding myself to make a Disqus account).

      Row 2: (While) I give them…
      Row 6: /scenario that had been engaged/ (scenario in which you attempt to engage)

      Row 7: I still end up losing /or/ (by) not winning anything…
      Row 11: superpowerful (cheap-) EW and Logi…
      Row 16: They (cheap ships)

      I hope it helps getting through the text. I need to stop posting when I’m tired, the remaining flaws (punctuation etc.) shouldn’t affect your ability to get through the text so I’ll leave them in :P.

  • Newt

    I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen a gang over 5 but under 20 pilots. Maybe some very terrible POCO takedowns here and there, but that’s basically killing time until the rest of your fleet logs in.