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Everyone wants to win. No one logs in wanting to get their teeth kicked in. Entering the game and being surrounded by bad guys on your front door is not appealing and neither is spending 99% of your time looking for someone to shoot. So players keep their enemy at arm’s length. No closer, no further. There is a certain amount of effort they are willing to spend to get to a fight. The effort is not measured in gates, jumps or bridges; it is measured in time. If players are willing to spend an hour or more to get to a fight and you factor in all the teleportation mechanics available, the arm becomes incredibly long. So much so that it crosses the map several times over during that hour. The jump sphere on the map not only is the places you can attack, but the places that can attack you. A spherical two-way street. If anyone in the game can descend upon you before you are done killing a POS tower, onlining a System Blockade Unit, done invading and taking over a system; what is the only real defense against it? Numbers.

As this formula plays out over the years, we finally arrive where we are today. Null security space is now one super coalition versus another super coalition. Now before you go trying to show off a Verite Influence Map mesmerized by the colors and activity; remember that the political landscape of EVE on an alliance level has been irrelevant for many years now. If you take the same map and view it as coalitions, there will there be vastly fewer colors and far less movement. When it comes to strategic objectives, coalitions group up and create super coalitions. The following map is from the 6th of February 2014 and based on known standings when a strategic objective is happening:

Some things have happened in the last couple of days such as Black Legion’s assault on Circle of Two, a CFC alliance. But in the grand scheme of things, it is not a dramatic change. Due to everyone dog piling into one war you are always trying to put everyone into one system and mostly into one grid to fight over a goal. We are not talking about a few hundred players anymore; we are talking thousands and thousands. One system, one grid, one node. The server has multiple strokes and sometimes falls over dead. The technology CCP currently has simply can’t handle it. Sure TiDi often times kicks in and it does help, it makes for a very poor gaming experience. Often times while stuck in an uncool version of Bullet Time from The Matrix, they long for the joys of smaller scale warfare. Even if the technology did exist where lag was no longer a problem, the bigger issues remain. There is a severe lack of Triple Constraint when traveling across the game.


Lack of Triple Constraint

The Triple Constraint consists of usually three aspects. If you want two of the three to excel the third suffers. You find this in a variety of things from production to war. Or when it comes to EVE, balancing. The normal three points is cost, time and quality. You cannot have a high quality project that is also fast and cheap. When you look at sub-capitals in EVE you see this in full effect. Especially after the last few years of balancing passes on most of the ships and the warp speed changes. If you want to take a sub-cap via the gates to get to a battle that is a decent amount of jumps away, you need to make choices. You may have higher firepower and resilience on the battlefield with a battleship, but getting there will be slow going. The Triple Constraint in effect. You could decide time is of the essence and choose smaller, faster warping ships, but either your firepower or resilience on the battlefield will suffer. One could find a ship that does all three decently, but not excel at any. Currently that rarely exists. You hop in the ship that will be the most influential at the destination and teleport there utilizing a variety of methods, avoiding the risk and decision-making that comes with gate travel.

Currently the Triple Constraint does not apply to teleportation mechanics and because of this; removes it mostly from ships. The time aspect is tossed right out the window because everything happens so fast. Bringing even sub-capital ships to a fight is mostly just sitting on a titan inside the safety of a POS and teleporting directly to the grid where the battle takes place. All in about ten to fifteen seconds. I use the word teleportation because that is exactly what happens. Jump drives, clones, bridges, doesn’t matter. It is essentially being teleported from one place to another in about ten seconds. Right now very few factors that are a bottleneck for the forms of teleportation and most of them are easily hurdled. Make no mistake – it needs to be nerfed.


The Usual Suspects: The Problem

Take a look at Jump Bridges and Titan Bridges. There are obviously differences, one being a structure that is locked into teleporting players to another specific bridge in another system. The other being a ship flown by another player who teleports other players ships to any cyno within range. Vastly more flexible, but of course more costly on the rare occasion of miss-clicking.

We have ships with Jump Drives. Essentially every capital ship sans the Orca and T1 freighters. Not to be forgotten, the Black Ops battleship can bridge and jump as well. As long as the isotopes flow and the cyno chains are intact; the largest ships in the game can go from one extreme side of the game to the opposite extreme side in under 15 minutes. This is not an exaggeration. I personally timed several of these cross map trips on Tranquility which usually is related to having to reclaim sovereignty that was recently dropped from an ally.

Even losing your capsule to enemies or suiciding your capsule is a form of instant travel. Granted being podded comes with a cover charge to keep your clone updated, but players death cloning to get somewhere is an often used method. Set your clone spawn via the medical station, undock and then self destruct or ask a friendly to pod you if you don’t want to wait the two minutes. A related teleportation mechanic is jump clones. With the right standings and trained skills, they can have up to eleven different clones spread across all of New Eden. Out of all the teleportation mechanics, Jump Clones do come with a hurdle that can’t be avoided by throwing ISK at it or trying to meta-game around it. Even with max skills, if you jump clone, you must wait nineteen hours before you can jump clone again.

Take the above into consideration and even the mildly organized groups can get anywhere with almost anything very, very quickly. Most certainly long before any system or POS suffers any real harm. It takes days to invade and conquer a system. Crossing the map with capital ships – minutes. Teleportation has made our New Eden into a tiny universe.

There is no magic bullet to fix all the problems of sovereignty and power projection. There is many layers and will need time. There is one change that will have a significant impact on how players and organizations project their power. It is time to change the teleportation mechanics from constant teleportation across the map endlessly into things used more strategically. And because of this it will have a healthy ripple effect on future battles, invasions, defending, the list goes on.


A Not So Little Experiment

Theorizing is one thing, witnessing things first hand with your very own eyes is something else. So I decided to see the difference between several ship classes when tasked to travel across the game map.

I researched a bit and arrived to a set of testing guidelines. Each ship class would start at the sun of one system and end at the sun of another. 373Z-7 to either SVB-RE, 3KNA-N, or BU-IU4 are the furthest systems and when taking the shortest path it is 99 gate jumps. I decide on the 373Z-7 to SVB-RE route. It is a route that starts in the Stain region and hooks west and circles clockwise to the north into Branch. Another decision was to not include time lost to warp disruption bubbles or hostiles one would encounter along the way. The fastest a standard fit ship could go. With the rules in place, I began the race of ship classes.

Super Taxi
The first ship I choose is a Crow. It is easily one of the most popular interceptors in the game right now. Instead of going with a standard fit, I wanted to see what would happen if money was no object and how fast I could make the trip. For implants I set myself up with a full set of high-grade Ascension implants. The are a new set of implants found in Ghost sites that increase the warp speed of any ship you are flying. Realizing warp speed is only part of the equation, I pick up a +6% to agility hardwiring and fill the low slots of the Crow with Local Hull Inertia Stabilizers for maximum agility. With my super taxi ready, I start at the sun and put the pedal to the metal and tear across system after system in record time.

Time to complete: 55 minutes

Crow
Now that the least likely Crow setup has been tested. I move on to a Crow fit that is the most common found in combat these days. No implants and the only item fit that actually affects anything is one Nanofiber in the low slots. I set back up in the same starting system on the sun, plot the same path to the end and off I went again. Granted the interceptor is immune to warp disruption bubbles it is important to remember that these runs also do not include time spent engaging the enemy. The fastest to make the trip with a standard fit.

Time to complete: 59 minutes

What the deuce?
What is interesting is only four minutes separates the standard fit from the super travel version. I was assuming the difference would be dramatic, but then I took a moment to break it down. Nothing affects the ships time to reach full warp speed or from full warp speed to out of warp. Also unaffected is the time during the gate jump, jump tunnel and grid load. Sure you might enter warp a second or two faster with the crazy agility of the super setup, but in actuality the time you are at full warp is very small measured in 1, 2 or maybe 3 seconds. Multiple those few seconds over 99 jumps and you only end up with just the 4 minutes. I digress.

Sacrilege
I move on to a heavy assault cruiser. This ship offers significantly more firepower and resilience to have better staying power on the battlefield. However, the warp speed is lower. The Triple Constraint in effect. Although a 1600mm armor plate can easily be used for gangs of HACs when logistics is present, I opt for the non-buffer fit. Real men dual rep their Sacrileges! Turns out nothing on the fit affects agility or warp speed. Still keeping using a clone with no implants, I make the journey again.

Time to complete: 1 hour and 32 minutes

Megathron
Time to try a battleship. Extremely common in a variety of fleet doctrines and found in all parts of the game. Also what is commonly found is buffer fit battleships rolling with a nice logistics backbone. Although I will not have the luxury of such things, I still fit two 1600 mm plates slowing down my agility a bit. Again, time does not include warp disruption bubbles and or dealing with hostiles along the route. The fastest possible.

Time to complete: 2 hours 31 minutes

As you can see, the more firepower, the larger and stronger the hull; the travel aspect suffers. If I really had to make that trip to show up for a battle, several decisions would need to be made. Sure I could bring a battleship, but it would be a long road to travel and what are my odds of getting there in one piece? Go with a smaller and more nimble ship that can make the trip faster and maybe successfully engage and defeat some of the smaller ships that would have killed my battleship? Decisions, decisions.

Archon
If you thought for a moment I would not include a capital ship, you are insane. Obviously I will not be taking gates to go from 373Z-7 to SVB-RE. Time for some cynos. I look up a jump plan that will take me the distance, pack all the fuel needed and begin. A few things to be noted is the time it takes to hit the jump to button, enter the warp tunnel, load grid, dock and undock again with full jump capacitor is about 32-33 seconds. If you are travel fit with cap rechargers and capacitor flux coils, very common, the time it takes to hit the jump button, enter the warp tunnel, load grid and have enough cap to jump again is about 50 seconds.

Cyno’s go up and I begin my run. I purposely do not use the convenience of a station to dock in to add more time to the route in an attempt to add more time. Having enough isotopes for the full trip already in the carrier and no cynos are destroyed; I also take into account that before I make the last jump into the destination system I refit for combat. Once again, a standard method of traveling with capital ships in the game. After I am refit and ready to go, I jump to the final system and check the stopwatch.

Time to complete: 7 minutes

That is not a typo. Also not to be ignored is the Crow, Sacrilege and Megathron were in danger to be slowed down and or killed 198 times. The Archon? Just the 7. Did I mention I put the other ships I used for the test into the ship maintenance bay and brought them with me? The Triple Constraint the other ships subject to was tossed right out the window.

In Reality
Sure you will hear horror stories of capital movements taking a long time. There will be the occasional one that bumps or is tackled. Maybe the cynos were not put in place prior to the move. Someone forgets the Liquid Ozone to light the cyno. The more and more people you involve it does affect the time. Of course TiDi rears its ugly head. But remember, the sub-capitals that took gates did not take into account warp disruption bubbles or dealing with hostiles along the way. The biggest ships in the game, the ones with the most firepower, with the largest hulls and sustain on the battlefield – are the fastest traveling ships in the game.

Why would anyone choose to bring a ship with less firepower, less sustain, is 28 times more likely to run into trouble and more importantly; 9 to 21 times slower to move? There may be the occasional system that is jammed where dropping in a capital is out of the question, but taking titan bridges and jump bridges across the map is not. I did not have access to 15 titans to set up a daisy chain, but considering at most you will spend is one minute per bridge; you can in theory make the same trip in about 15 minutes. Effectively, everyone is your next door neighbor.

travelchart


Everything is Connected

It is difficult to make a large change when there are multiple other aspects of the game connected to it. Even when all are broken in their own way, it is hard to change just one and leave the others as is – broken. What to remember is sovereignty mechanics and power projection go hand in hand. We have structures with millions and millions of hit points to grind because if they were easier, people would just steamroll through everything.

Of course by making the hit points so high to keep groups from doing that, you start excluding smaller groups from being able to. If anything the more hit points you add, the more incentive there is to increase the number of blues so the task can be completed faster and faster. The sovereignty system reflects what is needed due to the current power projection and vice versa.

The following is my idea on how to reintroduce the Triple Constraint back into all ship selection and how to travel with it. I can not stress enough that when reading it, you must remember that current mechanics for sovereignty and other things like industry can not be assumed to be the same. What this change does is open up the door to make logical changes to them based on this new mechanic. Just like you; your enemy is not immune to these changes. Something to remember.


Tough Love in the Cure

Each individual character will have a Power Projection Pool (PPP). This is a pool of light years that replenish over time and has a cap to the amount of light years it can hold. While aspects are subject to balance, all numbers I will be using are pulled out of my ass for the sake of having numbers. Keep an open mind and remember that this change not just affects you, but everyone in the game, including your enemies.

The following teleportation mechanics will draw light years from the PPP to do the teleportation action you use in the game right now.

Jump Drive

POS Jump Bridge

Titan Bridge

Covert Bridge

Jump Clone

Being Podded

The PPP has a cap of 24 light years with a recharge rate of 0.5 light years per hour. If the PPP is 100% full and a player uses one of the above teleportation mechanics the recharging of the PPP starts at once.

Each teleportation mechanic will not necessarily have the same pull on the PPP as the distance they are teleporting. i.e. a titan bridge that is 10 light years will drain the PPP by 10, but traveling 10 light years via a POS jump bridge will pull 8 light years from the PPP. This is due to the titan bridge being a more powerful form of teleportation for obvious reasons. This allows each teleportation to be balanced individually instead of a blanket change that affects them all.

If the amount of light years to be used from the PPP is not available for the teleportation mechanic the player wants to use, say a jump drive. Then they will not be able to jump. i.e. The distance between their carrier and the cyno is 10 light years, but their PPP only has 8 light years available. The exception is being podded. You can always be podded and return to where your medic clone is set.

With no timer restriction on jump clones, it is possible for a player to have several clones in the same station. While this is currently limited to two per station this could easily be increased. Each implanted differently to take advantage of the vast variety of fitted ships and fighting styles. There will always be a minimum of 1 light year consumed no matter how close the power projection action is. While this no doubt would open the door for players to always make sure they log off in a +5 implant set, it does offer the chance they might forget they are in them and lose them. Perhaps lose them on the way to the staging station.

Currently, anyone who is online (and anyone who is offline and at their computer among alliances who use Jabber or any other program to ‘ping’) can just hop into their capital ship and bounce all over the galaxy at a moments notice; or zerg out an engagement that is 45 regular jumps away by utilizing several titan bridges to bypass everything in between within minutes – as long as the isotopes flow and the cyno alts are staged. And if the battle is ongoing for over an hour (it usually is when it comes to sov objectives), any player who loses their ship can use the same route to return to the fight in a new ship very quickly. It makes the galaxy much smaller, and a majority of solar systems go completely unused as a result.

The proposed new PPP system will restrain this problem and encourage entities to take more serious consideration over owning solar systems that they actually care to use. Effectively breaking the trend of one alliance owning one or several entire regions by default. Hyper-Escalation of any battle anywhere in the galaxy suddenly requires much more strategic organization to invoke. And new alliances who want to be a part of the sov war game can more easily gain footholds in pipeline or constellation areas, rather than blueing up with the most popular coalition in the area. Generally making Eve itself as large as it should be. All of this with the help of a new UI feature to graphically illustrate your PPP status, of course.


Cliché Solutions

Some argue that having just a flat cool-down timer is the way to go. “Just make it one hour between jumps.” This will not work at all. You will still see capitals zerging across the map, but instead of ten minutes, they will take a few hours and in the end; still be able to heavily influence the course of a battle dramatically. After all, if you know when a timer is coming out, you can just start your route earlier and show up with an armada of capital ships. Even having it up to six hours will not be enough. Any alliance or corporation that is time zone heavy will have their timers at zero ready to go when they all log in. Meaning everyone could just bridge on top of someone from the start. Sure it will mean waiting six more hours for a second bridge, but that does not create any variation in ships brought to a battle from the start. It just means the first wave will be the most powerful and most likely the battle will be decided immediately from that first wave. With the PPP every one’s level of light years will vary across the board. So even at the start of the battle you will not see everyone in an alliance dropping something with carriers or being titan bridged. A part of the fleet might, but most certainly not everyone.

Just removing a ship or two will not be the solution either. Why remove the jump freighter when other types of teleportation mechanics will take its place? Players will find the path of least resistance. People in general do that with most things. By keeping the jump freighter and addressing teleportation in general it allows the player to keep the tool and reserve it for important decisions. Raising the cost to open cynos, use jump bridges and jump drives is not the answer either. The one to suffer from that change will be the younger and smaller groups. All the while the larger and richer alliances will be completely unphased.


Dynamic Fleet Battles

The number of players who want to be part of a battle may stay the same, but the ship they bring and how they get it to the battlefield will be dramatically changed. Even the term battlefield will take on new meaning as it will span beyond just a couple of grids in one system and spread out from the epicenter of the main conflict into many systems around it. Having everyone available to get to a bridging titan, undock their carrier or even log in their super capitals will become a thing of the past. Due to the PPP, not everyone with a carrier will be able to jump to a cyno, they will need to bring a sub-capital. Everyone will not be able to snuggle up next to a titan and wait for a cyno to go up, bypassing dozens of gates with their entire fleet. Even having a super capital in a fight will not result in anyone available in the game to log in their super capitals to cyno on top of you for a gank.

The fleets in a battle will start to become more mixed in sizes, especially as the battle goes on and players are re-shipping to get back to the fight. They may have to travel far via gates and thus ship down to smaller, faster ships to get to the battle. The number of capital ships used in a fight will go down. The speed in which massive numbers zerg across the map will drop dramatically. Most will run into fights along the way. Perhaps their plated up battleship is no match for the locals along the route. Some might make it back to the battle, but decided to bring assault frigates due to the distance. Deciding where to attack, where people should stage from, where to defend; all of these things will come into play. The Triple Constraint in effect. This is not some giant wall that will prevent players from going where they want. They just have to make a decision on what to bring that will get them there.


Summary

This is most certainly a game changer. Everything from how fleets are composed, to how they are deployed and even to how a battle is influenced. There are groups who focus on hyper deployment with capitals who will hate this. But, there are groups who will enjoy not having to deal with the earlier group. They can enter a cycle of siege on a low sec tower and not have to worry supers from nine regions away zerging across the map to drop on them. Yes, this actually does happen. They will still need to consider what could drop on them from the local area. Just not from the entire game map. Also large bloc leaders and fleet commanders will oppose this idea. It will complicate how they view the political map. They will have to reconsider deployments and even fleet doctrines. Very few ruling over very many will become more difficult and require vastly more effort. This of course will see the surge in small to medium level leaders and fleet commanders. Currently there is no need for them when it comes to strategic objectives. Why have a small time fleet commander lead an invasion when the big time bloc level fleet commander is on? Why should an alliance level leader decide on their own where they want to live when a coalition leader tells them where to live?

There is no denying it. A capital group can move from one side of the map to the other in fifteen minutes or less. Although it has been the case for years now, it is now becoming all too common. Especially with TiDi. A large battle erupts and everything in that system slows down to a crawl. Meanwhile everything not on the same node is effectively lightning fast in comparison. What normally would have taken a fleet from the other side of the game fifteen minutes to reach you, actually feels like two minutes for the system you are in.

With the PPP, the range of ships with jump drives are not affected at all. Players can still use them how they see fit, but the odds of everyone doing it at the same time will of course drop – dramatically. If a large entity wants to have a capital ship presence in a battle, they will need to have their capital force spread across their empire. Strategically placed for defending and attacking. Staging all capitals on a distant front is still very possible, but opens the door to being invaded on another front and having to defend without any capital support. Some players may have multiple capitals in different areas, the PPP still has an effect on how they get from one to the other and how it is used outside the system. The player might be podded while they travel or they jump clone, or take a bridge back. All of these actions drain on the PPP. It is possible they finally arrive at their second capital ship and have no PPP to jump it anywhere.

There is of course the possibility of trying to work around each persons PPP by using alts, but it is unpractical to be doing such things. The positive side is it could open up the market for having capital ships on the market near fronts. After all, a capital ship very near a war front will sell for far more than one no where nearby. Maybe paying a group to move your capital ships? Again, a possibility, but this involves more effort and trust becomes an issue. Regardless of how some players try to avoid being subjected to the PPP with capitals, you can’t have someone take a jump bridge for you or eat the light year cost if you are podded.

While there is still a vast amount of work to be done to the game such as a more robust industry in null, how intelligence is gathered and even how a player engages in large-scale combat; the PPP will allow needed breathing room for new blood to enter the sovereignty conflicts and go great lengths to make the wars far more numerous and far more frequent.

- Marlona Sky

  • Provi Miner

    What would be interesting is the insertion of randome events. Random event A: you ship is lost in jump translation. Random event B: you were dropped from translation and landed ? Random even C: You arrive at destentaion but the translation destroyed X (modules, implants, return fuel what ever).

  • Muul Udonii

    Holy crap.

    What a well presented initial point, and then a terribly bad idea to solve a problem you think exists.

    What you propose will mean media grabbing battles CAN’T happen, ignoring the fact that they are rare to begin with.

    You essentially want to neuter everyone with caps, and render titans even less useful. Jealous of someone?

    • Noisrevbus

      Marlona is (or at least used to be) one of the more profilific NCdot posters.

      I doubt he is jealous of himself or wants to needlessly ruin his own gameplay.

      Feel free to disagree with the article as much as the rest of us, raise the bar a bit, will you?

      • evesnooze24

        Funny eh, when N3 thought that their wreckingball fleet was flawless they never seems to mind being able to stretch their influence from the far north to the far south.

        Now that CFC has introduced them to a bitch-slap, its suddenly “force projection sucks”

        PPP would help N3 protect thier own shrinking space, and hurt the CFC’s ability to deliver a beatdown on command…. this is obvious to anyone with a brain

        cry more please

        • Noisrevbus

          Actually, Marlona has been talking about the force-projection of cynos for more than two years now. I still believe that he is wrong though :).

          You are repeating Muul’s mistake by not doing your homework and just blurting out jargon.

        • Jevous Encule

          “CFC has introduced them to a bitch-slap, its suddenly “force projection sucks”

          Marlona has been talking about nerfing force projection for years bro!

        • don’t be a tool

          Goons have been asking for that nerf a lot longer than NC. has, its to their advantage given the numbers and ship types they prefer.

    • Dirk MacGirk

      Fuck “media grabbing battles”. The media don’t play Eve so they don’t really understand how boring those kinds of fights can be for the average player. To them it’s just a big number to put into a story. Fun battles would be nice, and fun battles don’t happen with 3,000 people that get the media’s attention. Perhaps if you had the chance for “gudfites” a little closer to home, you wouldn’t be as concerned with how long it takes you to invade space clear across a universe.

  • Ricardo Gonzalez

    I agree they have to fix this , it would make the game more challenging and also more realistic making it seem like the galaxy is huge, there’s no point in having a huge galaxy when you can. Bridge 2000 people from one side of eve to another. It should take more logistic and more planing this would make the game more interested and less over power with the whole teleportation system. It will also make it harder for larger coalition to control so much space or should I say empty space since it’s empty, it would allow new alliances and coalition to fight for this space making it harder and helping the control of sovereignty ownership., adding more content to the game. Instead the whole system is broken and it allows blobs of pilots to go from one side of the system to the other by a simple click of a button to bridge. In a real war you should have most of your pilots in the war front line zone instead you have main accounts ratting or doing whatever and all of a sudden they are in a new side of the map. Maybe jump clones are ok since even Jump cloning it takes time to plan and if to worst scenarios you have to self destruct your pod and if you didn’t plan ahead you might lose your implants or not participate. Instead you have a mechanism. That allows you to flight two war fronts even if it’s systems across or across the galaxy map, which I find very unrealistic and if you haven’t heard eve is real. I wish ccp could could look into balancing this issue with bridging which would give the game more content. :)

  • Captain terry tibbs

    Awful just awful this would mess every single aspect of the game and limit how many people will even bother to go to fights. Just because it would suit small roaming enties and fledgling allainces doesn’t mean u need to screw over the 100+K of pilots that need jump freighters moving new ships to staging systems and carriers to move fitted ships to a new deployment and who would bother with a Capitol at all if this was the case? Might as well just head to faction warfare and screw the PPP mechanics making going to a fight like the trip frodo had to do to get to mordor.

    Flip the argument around and say that the way it currently is with the bridging mechanics allows more fights to happen and make logistics easier and is all round a good thing compared to this proposal. Screw not being able to go to a fight cause uv moved some ships around ur allainces home region cause of a 10/10 and used all your PPP that u had. PPP would kneecap every alliance in the game and screw over every member in them!

    • Chris

      Which is the point. Force the coalitions to downsize or lose a bunch of space anyway.

  • lord of the trolls

    So now that your coalition is no longer the capital power of eve, you want them nerfed into the ground?
    Fucking idiot

  • [email protected]

    What will fix EVE? Moar retards with wall of text! Yes. please.

    • Guest

      Might want to put nickname in nickname box rather than your email, prepare for Viagra and Penis enlargement emails by the dozen.
      Also you from like North Korea where you are not allowed an opinion? That’s sad… :-(

      • [email protected]

        Thanks for the advice, but i’m too lazy to make my account so I’ll use yours instead.

    • Airke Label

      What will not fix EVE? CCP apologist for EVE’s bad game mechanics.

  • Dirk MacGirk

    Absolutely agree force projection is an issue, but disagree with the pool idea. It not only fucks the big guys moving herds across the map, but it dicks individuals just trying to do their thing on a much smaller scale. Similar to whacking drone assist down to 50 drones, I just don’t think you have to hurt the individual of small group because the blob overextends the mechanic in a way CCP didn’t envision or intend (obviously they are horrible at envisioning how the players will use their mechanics).

    I think there are other ways of making coalition and even alliance-based mass fleet movements more difficult/cumbersome that would have a meaningful impact. This can be done incrementally to ensure the nerfs have the desired impact without causing unintended consequences. Timers, mass restrictions, alliance-only jump bridges are all possibilities that can be tweaked as needed to get the desired result. I totally buy what you’re selling in terms of trying to make Eve bigger and more fragmented, but just don’t agree with the pool concept. Not everybody has a dozen alts, and outside of war players do move around Eve for other reasons.

    However, despite my agreement with your underlying principle, none of us who think force projection is OP or that massive swaths of blue is all that good for a video game are ever going to convince the monkeys who just want the easy button. Easy to defend, easy to attack, anywhere on the map and be back home in time for dinner. They have been groomed to see travel as something that gets easier over time and nothing should be made hard for them despite sensible arguments. That numbers are the answer to everything. It’s a sandbox blah blah blah. But more and more people are thinking about these issues. It remains to be seen what CCP really has in mind.

    • ForceProjectionIsOP

      While i agree with the author and you that force projection is an issue, i disagree with you that the solution to “OP Force Projection” must favor the individual over larger groups. The authors proposal (and most proposals that nerf force projection) impact all groups equally and rightly so imho. If we are ever to tackle the increasing problem of a shrinking eve universe and massive tidi fests at every turn there must be a change in eve mechanics that impacts EVERYONE equally.

      • Dirk MacGirk

        Agreed. There is no single solution to anything and there will be a ripple effect to any changes. Hence why CCP need to be better at foreseeing what those ripples will be before they make big changes. Force projection can’t be changed without changing several other high-profile subjects/

  • DBRB

    someone is buthurt at having their teeth kicked in by my carrier

  • Synisterspyderbite

    Too long did not read.

  • Insert Name Here

    Glad people are talking about power projection in a serious
    way. The point here is to prevent one entity from being able to enforce
    their will anywhere in New Eden at any time. It should be pointed out
    even with some sort of nerf to projection, the current blocks would still own
    large amounts of null sec and rightfully so. This is just one change
    needed, sov being another. Here are a
    few of thoughts on the issue:

    On the suggestion in the article, a few points come to mind. First, how
    would wormholes effect the PPP? While the number of capitals that could
    be reasonably moved would be limited, it’s still a mechanic to think about. Second and more impactful, the use of moving alts
    and characters. Large groups could use
    alt’s with the ability to sit in super caps and titans to move them. Line members probably would not be trusted to
    move titans and supers, though perhaps if a coalition was desperate enough… Thirdly, the PPP mechanic would also cause
    capitals to be “stranded” in whatever system they happened to be in
    when their PPP ran out. While not
    entirely a bad thing (hunting for them would be very enjoyable) it seems unfair
    that a pilot would have NO way to get a very valuable ship out of a system or
    region for many hours at a time. This
    would realistically impact smaller groups or individuals more as they would
    have a harder time protecting their assets on the jump in and the inevitable
    logging back in period to jump out.

    This maybe be an older suggestion but the only answer I see: Allow capitals to use gates and add a long cd
    to or completely eliminate the jump drive. The exception here could be black
    ops and JF’s, to allow for remote regions to not be completely horrible to live
    in and teh hot drops. Perhaps capitals could still have a jump drive with
    a very long cd (24 hours+) to allow for occasional quick movement. Jumping gates would require fuel, with cost scaled
    appropriately.

    Other thoughts, using cost to limit the size of an alliances
    capital and super capital fleet is probably doomed to failure with current
    mechanics. The answer would have to take
    into account the unlimited nature of corporation and alliance creation, still
    allowing different alliance to cooperate when needed, and a host of other
    concerns. There would have to be heavy advantages
    to still having a large number of super capitals in the same alliance. Adding
    contacts should require the consent of both parties, knowing instantly when a
    super or titan is logged in without any effort seems contrary to everything Eve
    is about. There is a whole other post in
    changing drones so they will not melt servers, but that should be a top
    priority for CCP, even if the meta changes away from heavy use of them, drones
    will still be present, and in large numbers, at any sizable fight.

    In conclusion I believe what’s best for Eve is to encourage
    gameplay which allows players to engage in what we all want, fights and blowing
    spaceships up. Encouraging them on all
    levels, large to small. Eve right now is
    still an amazing game. Limiting power
    projection seems like a step in the right direction of making the game even
    more amazing.

  • smg77

    It’s funny how NCDot only complains about force projection after they have lost the war.

  • Tri scrub
  • Verenikin

    So what I understood is: BAAAAAAAAAW :’( my coalition can no longer curbstomp everyone with capitals – CAPITALS ARE OP!!

    • Chris

      He never once said capitals were op.

  • Woschdbrot

    The problem about this is that it’s multi-layered and a general problem of 0.0. In my opinion the root of the evil is the sov mechanics that force you to use a lot of firepower and be able to project that force on far distance in quicktime. The reason why people do these long range fast convoys is because of the current constellation of power blocs. Usually the only alliance to jump around all of eve to drop on shit has been PL mostly, everybody else was in fight with his neighbour. It’s all cascading to the current bullshit max TIDI battles because the 0.0 mechanics work that way.

    I’d prefer a way to make people less dependent on supers and caps for sov warfare to actuallydo stuff in 0.0. Anybody who spent some time on sov grinds knows the feeling. If you could take down sov structures with less firepower it’d help create more conflict, more fun, less boring grinds, less need to form huge coalitions to project that kind of firepower and protection. Of course you’ll always have the blob issue, but that’s something else to address.

    Your approach would be a good idea but it has its downsides. In general when you look at 0.0 and infrastructure you have several problems to deal with. First of all – distance. Distance to market, distance to customers, to friends/staging system, to enemies, etc. If you want to set up shop somewhere in 0.0 you can’t just fly in 2 freighter loads via gates, no you need JFs, especially if you want seed a staging system to field several doctrines and be able to reship. Your system would cripple the logistic backbone of alliances, in my opinion. And then you need stuff like JBs in bigger alliances to be able to get to the enemies fast and not need to jump 30 gates and then the enemy is all docked up.

    I think that if EVE would push you towards that smaller scale fights (still about 200-400 people fights), it would help a lot of issues. You could still have awesome fights, use your caps/supercaps for ACTUAL fights not grinds, TIDI would be a minor issue, POSes would be easier to reinforce, sov levels harder to keep/maintain (JBs, cynojammers, etc.)…

    It’s such a difficult issue to solve, there won’t be a perfect solution anyway. But it’s a nice thought and I think CCP would be able to solve a lot of issues people have with the current state of game if they’d manage to overhaul the sov mechanics.

    Keep it up marlona ;)

    P.S.: Loved your “report” on travel time, nice!

    • MaraRinn

      The same “pool” of travel could apply to hi sec too.

      Marlona also mentions that a nerf on travel would have to be accompanied by a nerf to the millions of HP present in sov structures (I’d suggest simply moving sovereignty metrics to activity-based rather than structure-based).

      • Woschdbrot

        Yep, just wanted to highlight that – because that’s the main reason why people go to such lengths to setup that kind of force projection. activity based model sounds interesting.

  • Tough Love in the Cure

    +1 Force Projection hugely OP in EvE and is the reason we have two super coalitions in null sec. Its too easy to move huge fleets around the map.

    Not sure i agree with the authors idea of pool points. I like the much simpler solution of neft capital jump range. Cut all capital jump range to 30% of what it is now. Cut titan jump range to 20% of what it is now and make jump bridges only work for the alliance that owns them, not every blue.

    BOps jump range should stay the same, and jump clone and podding are balanced as they have downsides already.

    • Jevous Encule

      Like you, I to am for nerfing capital ship jump range. As for JC and podding, I think the downside of suiciding your pod is not high enough. You should loose skills for suiciding your pod (or if you asked a blue to do it). Also, there should be a maximum distance in light years for your “conscience” to travel into your survival clone after you died. If it is to far, it should just spawn in a random low-sec NPC station that is in range and equiped with medical facilities. Same with jump clones, if the JC you are trying to jump into is to far, your conscience should not be able to reach it…or you could loose some skill pts if you force it lets say.

      • Woschdbrot

        I dont get why – if you die in battle it would only hurt the game experience if you were set on a cooldown timer. It’s not like you can pod anywhere you want, it’s limited to the offices your corp is holding – and with high SPs it gets expensive. What’s the use of JCs if they are too far off to reach? What about a simple HS JC to get some skill books etc? Don’t make 0.0 even more annoying as it can be. Battles aren’t won with JCs or podex – let people kill their pods if they want to get elsewhere fast.

    • Titans Nerfed Again

      Cutting jump range won’t really do anything except annoy the hell out of super power alliances – they have the numbers, just means more alts have to be moved into position, which = more bullshit eve trucking sim game. Frankly EVE has way too much trucking sim as it is right now, even with Jump Freighters and such. I would say that at least 35% or more of eve game time is spent hauling shit from one place to another – even if your a pvper exclusively, you still have to go buy your guns and ammo and ships. This is not really a fun part of eve, more like an annoying necessity. Can we all remember that were playing a game, paying for it, and that we came to have a good time? I have plenty of annoying shit in my RL that needs to get done, I don’t want any more in my recreation, thx.

      If one more jackhole nerf’s titans again I swear… They can’t hit anything with their guns anymore, nerfed the DD weapon, if you nerf the last thing they’re good for (mobile jump bridge), their 70bill plus cost will make them all but total shite.

  • Triple Constraint

    All combat capitals (not jump freighters) should take time (0 to 5 mins) to jump depending on distance of jump. Titan bridges should take time to complete (0 to 10 mins) depending on distance of jump and mass of ships being bridged.

    Moving a long distance or bridging a lot of ships (or both) should cost you time.

    • Chris

      This is actually not a bad idea either.

  • just sayin’

    You should have included in the carrier trip the time it took you to find fuel, find a route, find/put the cynos online (yet not everyone has a zillion of cynos at the ready at the perfect places) and whatnot, and your numbers will be much better even more so for a solo trip. I’m fairly sure you’ll count the trip in dozen of minutes then ;).

    And it’s all fair since all those are very important part of the trip, from the time you say “I need to move” to the time “I’m actually there” that much time happens, and this is power projection as one can’t always be all ready right before something happens.

    Even if you live in a huge entity which is what helps shortening the flight, you shouldn’t forget some people actually “lost time” to provide you the fuel in your stations, eventually put up cynos for you since they were close to the destination etc… This is the effect of banding together and being well prepared which makes this happens, as such it isn’t that bad a mechanic maybe it could take a bit more fuel or something else as a kind of preparatory step, but nothing that bad.

    I do agree that teleportation is a problem though, and in my opinion the worst thing is the jump clone in this case. This effectively allows enormous empires to actually bring a full 10k man army to the other side of the universe in under 2 minutes + the time people take to react. You only need to have put once a jump clone around there and to have ships on the ready to undock, which isn’t much a problem since ISK isn’t a problem.

    Though using caps could indeed be ~harder~ like not that much but maybe one could need a step or two more as preparation. Maybe putting cyno as something more than click and light or making jumping more than click and jump, it’s still a jump to the other side of the universe many “RP mechanism” aren’t mentioned.
    Also the big problem with caps comes when put together with time dilatation, the difference of time length becomes critical as in effect those 7 + 20/30 mins (at best) maybe preparation time appear as only less than real 5 mins fight for the TIDIed side in some of the best cases, which then becomes OP. If it was all going at the same time, the time it takes to put a cap fleet together, to put cyno at the locations and whatnot wouldn’t be that bad. Enough for people to hear spies or whatnot telling of a sudden formup and moves and attempting (or being successful) in pulling out.

    o7

  • LMFAO

    Looked at that graph of the blue doughnut cfc/rus have created and feel pitty for the dumb fucks.
    Man the fuck up and fight your own wars instead of having to blue cfc so you can outnumber your opponents 4:1
    Honestly Russians used to be far better than this, used to have some dignity, I see theres none left as is proven by the blue doughnut…bah!

    • Chris

      The core russian alliances have died like 3 times now.

      I’m pretty sure their diginity was gone awhile ago.

  • Sarah Thrace

    Ultimately the issue is with TiDi. Battles like Asakai and B-R would have been decided much earlier on and not given the entirety of EVE a chance to jump in on the fight. It was a few hours into each of these fights before they reached their peak populations. If guns were firing in real time not 1/10 – 1/100 speed then it would generally be a contest between the active players in the vicinity of the fight unless they were balanced such that the fight lasted long enough for reinforcements.

    For example in Asakai, the CFC’s proximity to the system gave them a significant advantage in the first hour or two of the fight which was less than 10 minutes of game play. The TiDi allowed the rest of EVE to not only fly across the universe, but to negotiate truces. Thus the numbers tide changed between the 2-3 hour mark which was still less than 15 minutes of game time. Imagine if those 2 hours had been at full speed.

    • Noisrevbus

      That is an incredibly odd way of phrasing it, considering that TiDi is an ad-hoc solution to stave off the very problem to compounding numbers and only implemented recently.

      How can it be the “ultimate issue”, or the root of a problem, when it was a band-aid to the problem in the first place?

      Sure, TiDi kicking in can make the symptoms worse, but it’s hardly the illness.

    • Britanicus99

      you are exactly right. TiDi is the real problem. IN the system effected time moves at .1 of real time, force projection to the system is in real time which in reality is 10 times faster then time in the system. So this allows the responding forces to move, essentially in relation to the battle, 10 times faster. It allows for supers and titans to be pinged and brought right across the map to get into a battle that in reality was over before they even got there. What I mean is that if you speed up the tidi system to match the time outside the system that battle would have been over before the force projection even got there. So Eienstien that mofo’s LOL.

      What should happen in this case it that any ship wishing to jump into a tidi system should enter warp tunnel and stay there until the time in the system matches the time out of system.

      When comparing the 2 timelines you should not be able to bend time to enter a battle effectively before you even logged in as far as time in the tidi system is concerned.

      I know that hardly makes sense but I am not sure how to clean it up so it makes more sense.

    • Chris

      So basically it turns into one side gets on grid, the other side blackscreens.

      Sounds like a fun game I want to downgrade to and play again.

      TiDi isn’t a solution by any means, but at least things are much more reliable.

  • heh

    It’s pretty easy what the problem is. It isn’t that.

    We have these game ending skills that we get to. They are badass, and we like them. There are some balancing issues sure… but not so much as we like to think there is.

    Here’s the real problem.

    New people are playing WoW everyday. Not so much for Eve. The age of toons in Eve on average is probably a hell of a lot older than in WoW.

    What we have is a bitter vet > noob ratio going on here. Too many people with the ability to use end game items and not enough people to be stuck with the noob shit. Let’s be real with ourselves here. We are getting to the point where soon enough, most people will be able to fly the bling in PVP. Enough people here played the game long enough to manipulate the market, manipulate any way to make isk to get what they need. The value of isk vs actual items in the game is probably much lower than we like to think it is. PLEX should probably cost a crap ton of more isk than it is. You can set things to make carriers or whatnot cost more minerals to build… but it doesn’t really matter that much. Problem is too many people are at the end game or at least near the end game of what they do in their niche to capitalize as much off the game as possible. On top of that, we have probably the best organizational structures in Eve Online for pretty much most major alliances and coalitions since…ever…

    When you combine all of this together… you get people fitting up end game ships and fits constantly… and not only that, but have the ability to replace it at least often enough to more than often enough, or for even some players…until they die in real life.

    My conclusion…

    For how people are skilled, and where they are at in the game, and how they choose to organize themselves and meta game…and also how CCP views and keeps the game.. we pretty much are at a constant end game. It’s going to become more increasingly obvious as time passes.

    How can it be fixed?

    1.) everyone hates this, but reset the clock.
    2.) People in game need to use what they have much much much more often.
    3.) Nerf more passive income sources to prevent constant end game ship blobbing.
    4.) I can probably think of more but you guys can probably add on to what I’m saying instead.

    5.) People need to learn to understand the metagame and fight against it. Don’t be a drone.

    • heh

      I really know people hate this… but I look at this game in the nullsec arena like I look at a game like Travian. We are in the last stages and someone wants to put up a world wonder. Goonswarm looks like they want it and have the ability to do it. I say, give CCP a go at giving an end game scenario and then just end it.

      Then restart the game. Everyone keeps their skills. You can make arguments as to what needs to go or not. Where they need to go or whatever. Reset Nullsec to nothing. All the supers and carriers are gone, and converted to isk. Everyone has to rebuild everything from scratch.

      Again… I know most people hate this idea… but to me, it sounds so much fun. I can even say that my idea on how it resets is off.. and sure you can give me ideas on how to do it more effectively. But man… what I would give for a total reset of the game.

      Honestly, I wish I had to start from scratch like everyone else. See what happens after that. See all the new alliances and powers that band and come together… and learn how to deal with the fact that they need to delegate towards the futures and what not. A new Eve you could say. Eve 2.0… after armageddon.

    • just sayin’

      Exactly this and again this.

      Most of what people seem to focus on aren’t that much imbalanced. For one cap projection can be pretty well countered. You can counter cap with numbers or alpha, you can counter caps just by killing their cynos. You can also ninja dead end systems without cynos ready. You can kill logistics chain to remove the amount of fuel, …
      Most things are only number tweaking then which aren’t the core of things, the system itself isn’t really ~faulty~.

      Some problems though are big one
      * Null sec new player population isn’t refreshed enough. Many vet leave the game which kind of balances, but almost NO new player comes into null as everyone think they need zillion of SP before they can even press on “Yes I want to jump” when they’re close to a low sec gate. Also null sec isn’t seen as attractive by many persons.

      * Sov sucks. You can’t ninja a system except if sov was dropped for example. As long as the big entities can’t be surprised (at most they’ll lose a timer or two before they take notice) then smaller ones have almost no chance.

      * Jita centralism will kill eve. If the universe was more spread, with ressources all over the place, your neat cyno chain to find fuel could become useless since the ressources would temporarily be elsewhere, which would make your whole ally need to adapt. For now there’s no adaptation or anything required. Just have a cyno to jita and you have the universe at hand.

      * It figures TIDI isn’t as good as it’s made to be. The price for de-syncing a whole system with the rest of the universe is way too high. This is further imbalanced when you see CCP isn’t capable enough to scale their code up (it is possible to make battles with millions of players I am certain as I work in the cluster departement, CCP just doesn’t want to invest in this).

      * Carriers RR way too much since they have nothing to do of their capacitor and of their high slots.

      etc…

      There are many more fundamental problems which can be highlighted, and even the problems I spoke about here can have more fundamental roots. But basically the capitals and some other aspects of EVE don’t need to necessarily get fixed or nerfed or whatever, this system on its own works well only other elements make it imbalanced when coupled together.

      • heh

        pretty much I agree…. except the carriers thing. I think carriers are fine with their repping. They need to balance it to the other races though, gallente and minmatar. Maybe some slight tweaking otherwise… but yeah I agree.

    • e-uni-teacher

      There is no “end-game” in eve, although i can see that having the same support skills for my “noob” frig and your “bitter-vet-end-game-boat” is a big hurdle for newbros.

  • Liu Bin

    I think the simple solutions can yield interesting results. The hour delay is more crippling than suggested above, in that people have jobs and the dedicated six hours to jumping *into* a battle won’t work for many. IMHO, the desire to stage and fight near the front will increase.

    Also adding in a 1 in a 1000 chance of a mis-jump or mis-bridge to *all* pilots would have a sobering effect on moving thousand-strong fleets around EVE. It may cause the occasional PVE into low-sec mishap and mining bot into Jita moment, but those would be fun too.

    It would focus the risk averse out of shinies, the roamers into smaller gangs, and provide stray PVP targets. Power projection would carry a low attrition cost risk.

    • heh

      Hour delay I think is dumb… as I think the game needs to stay and be more accomodating… but the mis jump chances thing I like. Things that make people think twice before using a pvp capital ship is a good idea.

  • Not just no, hell no.

    All this bullshit, pretending to want to nerf capitals because you care about little guys holding sov. Please. Where was this article when you were abusing the same mechanic? You’re just crying now because CFC/RUS broke all your shiny toys and are punting you across the map like a football.

    As to your proposed solution? No, just…no. Shit takes too long in EvE as it is. I’ve gotta wait to train skills, wait to go find my ships/spare parts/ammo, wait for my buddies who may or may not be available to log in, wait for intel, wait for timers, and sometimes wait for the goddamn stars to align as far as the tactical or strategic scenario goes. Now you want to add some arbitrary, bullshit time pool?

    This may not be obvious to someone who has enough free time/disposable income to write a dissertation on internet spaceships, but some (most) of us have lives, families, jobs, and other obligations that leave us with very little free time. For the limited time I have to play games and already have to wait, I don’t want to spend it slow boating across the whole of New Eden having to deal with every little strategically irrelevant pissant alliance I come across along the way. I want to get to my objective, and I want to do it right the !$&@ now. When I get blown up or complete an objective, I want to get back to base, get in a new ship, and go out and do it again-right the !$&@ now. How do I do that? By taking advantage of a well organized logistics chain. A logistics chain, with all it’s jump clones, bridges, cyno alts, and titans, that is the reward of months of planning and effort. All of that work, nerfed because of some arbitrary time pool? Congratulations, you just came up with an idea that’s even worse than the ESS.

    • Apolo Askiras

      I think it could have been said a little nicer but I definitely agree. There is way too much waiting in this game as it is. I don’t want to be waiting even longer to move around.

    • Black n Blue

      I think you’re missing the point. If you can’t jump across the galaxy you’ll be forced to make enemies with the guys next door if you want to pvp.

    • Lazy F*ck

      …but you personally did nothing for that logistic advantage. Maybe just go use the gates?

    • Marlona_Sky

      If only I didn’t start working on the research prior to B-R, where my side was winning, then it would have fit your narrative.

    • Chris

      Just because his side lost the war doesn’t make his post any less valid. Force projection has been an issue that people on ALL SIDES have wanted for years.

      The amount of time you spend won’t be changed at all, because the amount of sov any group holds would be much smaller, but nothing else would change.

  • NewOldMan

    I’m not really liking people that just keep saying “Just nerf the jump range or hike up cyno fuel” Because big power blocs will just use more alts to light more cyno’s and they would also put more isk towards fuel. That still doesn’t stop them from jumping from one side of the map to the other. Only makes it take a few minutes longer.

    Which is still not as long as jumping that distance in a subcap through gates. There needs to be an actual limit as to how far you can jump your carrier, titan, or dread. Because let’s be honest you can’t just put a band-aid on power projection and call it fixed. Sacrifices have to be made and ones that don’t just mean more cyno alts (limiting jump range)

  • sin

    I think it would just be great if you could not activate a titan bridge inside a pos. Force them to take a bigger risk.

    • josephdamienfurlotte

      This is actually a great idea. if you risk your titan being dropped every time, even a line member can sneak in a cyno and BOOM titan gone. i REALLY like this.

  • SteveO

    what they need to do is eliminate standings, cap corp and alliance size. Boom eve is fun again.

    • josephdamienfurlotte

      you are a fucking retard, for sooo many reasons. Mainly being that you think massive alliance wont find a way to still be massive.

      • SteveO

        lol sensative much, is this mittins?

        • Michael

          Shittens

      • SteveO

        Where is your wizzard hat?

  • asd

    dont try to fix it. just rip the entire teleporting bullshit out of the game. and while you’re at it: stealth is bullshit too … popular but still bullshit.

    • Lol

      Stealth doesn’t exist in EVE.

    • Chris

      I’m pretty sure ripping something out of the game when it is a good mechanic, but simply needs some work, is bad game design.

      HEY GUYS THE DRAKE IS OP
      Remove it

      HEY GUYS THE RIFTER IS OP
      Remove it.

      See what I mean?

  • Michael

    While this is an interesting idea it is short sighted. This idea is supposed to curtail force projection and in turn make it possible for little guys to push their way into holding sov in nullsec. What this idea will do in actuality is make already massive coalitions even larger. This is evidenced in the current war. Goons were being assaulted on at least 3 fronts at once, in order to defend their space they deployed different parts of the cfc to those regions. If you were to limit the number of light years a pilot could jump you would force coalitions to grow larger in order to defend their space. The other thing that would happen is you would have the rich alliances purchasing large caches of caps for use in those regions and just having the pilots take intys from region to region in order to be able to use said caps. There are innumerable ways around this idea. I give you an A for effort but an E on your idea. It just won’t change anything.

    • Fartolio

      ” It just won’t change anything.” …except it will lure more small entities to be targets. I just wonder: how much does the CSM play CCP’s game? Also, on a second tought: Marlona, why didn’t you publish this when your party had cap superiority? Lel, lel, lel…

      • Chris

        Except Marlona has always been in favor of a force projection nerf.

  • Sneaky SOB

    The problem as I see it is the support. Titan bridges should be removed and carriers should be carriers. Carriers, supers and titans should have their maintenance bays enlarged so that subcaps can dock in it with the pilot (clone vat skill). The carrier and super then jump the subcaps with them and the subcap pilots deploy from the carrier. That way you don’t have 2000 subcaps titan bridging risk free instead they jump inside capital ships. Once the subcaps deploy from the capitals the carrier/super has access to its drones like they do now.

    The risks are far greater giving players more caps to kill.

    Moving huge fleets quickly will be riskier than just losing a cyno and the subcap fleet size is limited to the capitals maintenance bays. This will also require more planning with the limited maintenance bay size. More battleships = less ships etc.

    • Michael

      Now there’s an idea worth looking into.

    • 7yearswasenough

      I suspect the current eve engine does not support having players docking and/or being moved by a mobile platform. I recall when carriers were first discussed this idea was thrown about.

      Personally I think what you said would be awesome.

      • Sneaky SOB

        Sorry for late reply, clone vat bays already move players docked in a ship so I don’t think it would be that difficult to program.

    • neon

      and while they at it, rework sizes so it becomes feasible that a carrier could fit 2 Machariels. Even if that would mean showing them visibly strapped outside onto the hull with minmatar-made hyperspace-proof duct-tape

  • Red Teufel

    titans bridge too much. drop it to 20 battleships and 4 cruisers and you wont have this crazy sov blobbery

  • goonslave

    Imo teleportation isn’t the “problem” this article makes it out to be, in fact most epic battles would never happen if you couldn’t bridge and i’m pretty sure i’m not the only one that thinks the most boring think in eve is the f* warpanimation (or jumpani.). the article hinted on the real problem tough which will always be numbers – even if you implement the proposed changes the larger alliances (coalitions) will always have more ways to “jump the hurdle”.

    • Dumb goons

      Spending all day in .01 TiDi isn’t epic, it’s retarded, boring and leads to thoughts of suicide and depression ( also known as mining). I guarentee that without power projection the CFC wouldn’t have the amount of blues and the number of systems that they do. It just wouldn’t be any fun trying to fly through THAT much space for a fight. And EVE would be a more interesting place for it as well.

  • moretitans

    I believe you pulled all those numbers out of your ass! No sane person would use his (free)time to do that many jumps around eve, even in your “Super Taxi”

  • Carniflex

    I do not like jump pool idea. It’s shafts the logistic backbone of not only the alliances but even at corporate level. Usually there is just few guys who jump freighter the stuff people need around for larger pool of people. In the crusade of castrating capital power projection you would essentially kill any teamwork in logistics.

    • Banden Lokemir

      Oh yes? and maybe then nullsec economy could be more than just an extension of hisec economy? Maybe people would mine, build and trade locally? Maybe there would actually be demand for minerals, so mining in nullsec would be a worthwhile way to earn? Maybe then there would be more people in nullsec, doing stuff out in space that other people could come and shoot at? Its a novel idea certainly…

      Seriously though, if you think logistics is not a part of power projection, think again.

      Do ask yourself, is it reasonable that just a few people can stock the markets of entire alliances?

  • Ossey

    I updated your pic i.imgur.com/dQHcmGI.jpg

  • bbo

    WTF is this crap, SOV is the way it is because of the games Sand box nature that permits players to band together either officially or unofficially.

    The reason we have mainly 2 main coalitions fighting isn’t because of teleportation it’s because in the current power dynamics you either like goons or you hate them. Thus you either join them or go against them.

    Guarantee if goons were to fall you’d see the rise of many warring coalitions. But until they do, it’s everyone vs them.

    Teleportation isnt a cancer to eve, it’s what brings us epic fights

    • Banden Lokemir

      Nope, because coalitions is pre-CFC. You give them too much credit. Saying that If it wasnt CFC it would be someone else, because capital proliferation. Marlona is right on the money.

    • Chris

      Sov is the way it is right now because of the Dominion sov changes. Way back when things, while more annoying to manage, was much better in terms of number of alliances who hold space.

    • Marcus

      *ether hate goons, or are a winning side bandwagoner*

      CFC has always lead the charge in the escalating coalition numbers, and it has nothing to do with them being loved. It’s because people don’t want to lose, and numbers win EVE plain and simple.

    • lulz

      Sounded like you just implied TiDi fights are consided good content…….. lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol.

  • Constantinee

    i.imgur.com/XCRyqTN.jpg

    Proper realization.

  • dream

    Hard way but a big step for the game is to remake the universe “nullsec” create 6 pockets 3 each side of the map with same number of regions in each one and and a huge gap between pockets, all the regions in the diferent pockets must have a escape rote without the need of holding cocks (ex colbat edge if you lose the escape system the other 60 80 are just useless crazy hum?.
    Another ideia i was checking dotland region by region and i saw most of systems are crap since only dead ends are use for ratting/mining leaves the others only for moon and exploration, dead ends with good sec are rare, for a big alliance that systems gets overpopulated so they need more space to get a decent rat areas for their members.
    Another gap in this game is the rats why serpentis plexes are soo easy to make 1 2 players than you need a huge team to make blood raiders, drops is another gap.
    I know its a year job or more but it will improve a lot the game

    • Chris

      Don’t make them the same. Each region has its own quirks. There are different reasons to live in different places, or fortify certain systems.

      Making everything the same is boring.

      • dream

        i untherstand your point and i just wrote the general ideias doesn’t mean they will be the same. Like npc regions between those pockets and 1 central in each one giving pirates a real home and fights, estrategic systems are needed and good for null fights blabla..
        Its just my thought it will be better with others working on it creating a better one :)

  • Justin Cody

    PPP is terrible, go back to the drawing board. We don’t need ancillary character boosting :-P Oh look 24hrs until my character is useful again! nice try…throw it out and try again.

    • Banden Lokemir

      forces people to plan ahead and make choices, both good things.

      • Justin Cody

        It is another useless layer of complication to add to the code base. There are simpler ways of limiting force projection than some stupid pool of points. This solution is opposed to emergent behaviors and gameplay. It is the anti-sandbox.

        A better solution is a jump timer that counts down from when you hit jump…preventing instant reinforcement for at least 60 seconds and also prevents jumping from inside the invulnerability timer on stations (here’s looking at you JF pilots).

        In addition to that CCP could re-scale the cluster so that regions are farther apart, so regional and constellation travel would still be easy but cross regional projection would make more systems as key systems. Of course depending on skill level maybe more systems could be hit…which would mean tweaking the jump drive calibration skill bonus to make level 5 matter even more.

        You currently still have to plan quite well to move a group of caps across any significant distance in EVE, whether it is moving a large number of alts in place for cynos, or staging fuel depots…I guess the point is that one jerk on the test server doesn’t demonstrate the amazing dedication of the pilots involved in setting up the logistics chains in EVE.

        Or you may consider balancing force projection on skill alone. So making the jump drive calibration skill matter progressively more as levels increase. Level 1 being a 2LY increase, L2 3LY increase, L3 6LY increase L4 8LY (really cross regional), and L5 16 LY. So a carrier starting with say a 6LY base would go in this manner: 6 ->8 ->11 ->17 ->25 -> 41. Or instead of that progressive increase you do a nominal: 6>8>>9>12>14 which I think is basically what we have now. The progressive makes skill matter more, while nominall constrains movement. But you could reduce base numbers on the progressive skill side and balance it that way.

        so Base 3 LY on a carrier instead of 6: L0 3: L1 5: L2 8: L3 14: L4 22: L5 38

        Levels 1 and 2 would be less powerful but give you increased rewards for training the skill higher and higher. This for an attacking force puts more systems in range of attack and puts more pressure on defensive forces as they can at Level 4 or 5 hit anywhere in your territory from almost any adjacent region. OMG 38LY is OP you say. Fine fine its just an example…but if we re-scaled the map for greater distances between constellations and regions (yay stellar drift) we could make force projection more difficult for anyone but the most skilled pilots. Basically a pilot today with JDC4 should need JDC 5 in the future to hit what he used to with JDC4.

  • brb

    good article. In my opinion travelling the galaxy should take days (or even weeks), not minutes. Every time a player teleports he should lose skill points. Call it teleportation disease, it messes up your dna. Eve players that want endless pvp, can play dust514.

    • Hey Moron

      Endless PvP in EVE would be a cure, not a disease.

  • Banden Lokemir

    Excellent article, Marlona and a pretty good idea for curbing this monster.

  • mantizz

    Don’t blame your lack of capacity on silly stuff like this. You must be greefing miners in a destroyer and don’t know how it is to fly a 2-4billion ship that any one can tackle for hours and that a few cruisers can take Dow. So the jump drives are a way to compensate for that. Stop waiting you NoOB

    • Chris

      Reading comprehension OP.

  • 7yearswasenough

    Maybe the solution is embrace jump drives and give it to every ship. Have cyno beacons scattered throughout the empire and expand the size of galaxy and the solar systems. While this makes the force projection worse it would allow a bit more equality for the have nots and the sub caps.

    • Chris

      No. Dear fucking lord no. You don’t solve a problem with something being OP by bringing everything else to the same level.

      • 7yearswasenough

        Maybe but sometimes the solution to a shitty problem is a crazy idea. It would change how Eve plays hugely but maybe a big changes are needed.

    • GG

      That is called power creep, and it’s what every MMO dev. avoids. In most cases it’s better to nerf one thing, then to buff everything.

      • 7yearswasenough

        Reckon this will ever get nerfed? Remember the “jump bridge” nerf? How the tears flowed and how essentially useless it was?

  • erroch

    This change would kill the already less desirable locations on the map. The fringes where a lot of the small corporations are pushed to live because it’s already inconvenient for the larger groups to survive.

    God forbid with a max 24 light year range, you live in Paragon Soul. It’s a 43 light year trek one way to the old low sec staging area from when I used to live down there. A single trek by this calculation would take two days real time. It also doesn’t change sub cap power projection because it just means that one has to have titans positioned ahead of time to form a chain.

    The solution to force projection really doesn’t need to add more tedium to the already tedious tasks that are required for survival in null, especially for the smaller entities. I would hate to be the poor sod who’s entire game-play experience becomes fueling pos’s because it takes four days to make a round trip to fetch fuel.

    I think a better solution would be to tinker with the mechanics of teleportation, specifically the direct force projection via cynosural fields.

    Perhaps instead of a power projection pool, you have a cynosural accuracy skill added. Successive jumps within a time frame decrease accuracy, meaning you land further from the cyno point. After a certain point your supercap blob starts landing outside of the range of remote energy transfers, perhaps even off grind from each other instead of the nice ball we currently see.

    Another thought that came up in some late night discussions was another sort of cyno jammer that instead of blocking travel to a system, interdicted jump travel across the system. So if you were, lets say going from MB-NKE in catch to Thakala, and there was a cyno interdictor deployed in J6QB-P you would not be able to make the connection This would put tools to limit power projection into the hands of the players. More or less, If you want to jump into the heart of someone’s territory, you have to circumvent the walls or take them down.

  • thoughts

    When I look at that Verite Influence Map, I see everything that is broken with eve in a single image. Coalitions is not an eve mechanic, its not something added to eve by game developers. It was dreamed up one day of two alliances setting eachother “blue” and the standard of NBSI was formed.
    Eve is designed for corp vs corp or alliance vs alliance with no tidi, servers don’t crash, everyone has a great time. I’ve been in a couple alliance vs alliance wars, 300vs300 etc, and it was a lot of fun.

    The best thing eve could do at this time would be to remove standings, which is the only thing that allows these non-eve created coalitions to be created. It would revive the game.

  • Guest

    fuck shit stack hitler

  • hmmmish

    Stopped reading at PPP made eve sound like a damn browser game… no thanks but the above I do agree with but your solutions I do not

  • Herp Derp The Great

    At the end of the day, the metagamers and no-life(SniggPLGoonzRussians) fucks that sell isk to pay their rent so they dont have to work like the rest of us, will come down against anything that threatens the ability of them to preside over renter filled AFK empires.

  • Nobodt

    Awesome very long article. Articulated much of what I’ve thought for years. Except I don’t like your proposed solution. I don’t know if I have a better one, but I don’t think it will really solve the problem (often everyone will still be within instant striking distance, or will deploy so that they are) while simultaneously having a lot of unintended consequences. I like the originality, but it’s too complex and convoluted and doesn’t strike at the heart of the problem. Sure, people might have to deploy a little bit closer, but the principle doesn’t change: ships, especially capital fleets, instantly appearing in one system from afar. You restrict the frequency and distance involved, but not the event itself. The large EVE battles would happen exactly the same except the staging systems might be closer and they wouldn’t do it as often or perhaps not be able to get back on field after one dies. I don’t know for sure what the answer is, but I know what it ain’t.
    If a solution to this problem can be found it would really add a lot of depth to large scale war. It would add a huge tactical element (troop positioning in different systems) instead of everyone instantly piling into one system, which would also decrease tidi/lag problems. So I think it’s the best change to EVE that can be made if it can be done.
    I think the answer might just be that caps/super caps might just have to go through gates… and only through gates. Since they’re the most powerful, they ought to be strategically placed and difficult to move. Plus that gives subcaps a little advantage in that they can be black op’d (is that a word?), but capitals will have to get there the old fashioned way. A black op ought to be a small force by definition anyway, not a capital fleet (I know a “black op” battleship doesn’t transport caps, but the principle is the same with titans, which do). It would be a radical move, but I think it might make the game a lot more interesting. Not only does a lot of strategy open up, but scouting becomes more important, and I think we’d see more escalation since some mystery fleet isn’t just gonna magically appear on the field. I don’t think clones/jump clones and such are such a big problem, especially if you instituted this change. If you’ve got piles of titans strategically placed around the galaxy you deserve whatever benefit you get.

  • 2013 noobie

    I have a solution that is simple. You make the resources needed to make the jump fuel much more rare and you don’t respawn it as often so that you can’t just stockpile fuel, jump ranges must be rebalanced, and titan bridges need a 72 hour cool down period before they can be reactivated. I will go through each one individually so make my point. The first, making it harder to get jump fuel will make all 0.0 entities more decisive using capital ships as well as where they deploy resources if you know that jumping a blob fleet is going to deplete your regional supply of jump fuel alliances may start to place resources and assets more strategically and make more use of jump gates to move fleets this will in turn make it a more urgent situation when a fleet is dropped on a system and force a more coordinated response other than pinging for people to log in and go. I agree being able to jump from one side of the map to another is kind of lame all you have to do is find a low sec mid point or two and who in a low sec empire system is going to be fool enough to mess with an alliance capital or supercapital fleet. The reason why navies like the US have carrier battle groups that are constantly moving in all sections of the world is they know that time is a precious commodity and that having that roaming presence makes them more effective in responding to threats, major alliances and coalitions should have this same sense of urgency knowing that it will take at least several hours to traverse space they would be required to make better and more organized fleet movements. Finally the cool down for titan bridging. I will start off by saying that I have only been in game since August 2013 I do not know the finer details of how much fuel is consumed by a titan bridge, I don’t know how long it takes to recharge the capacitor on it etc., but in my opinion (and I know opinions are like assholes we all got one and every one is full of shit) I think that this has become a crutch for most null sec entities. Why base anyone anywhere but home if you can just jump them wherever, whenever it’s lazy and I. think that it hurts the game and will do irreversible damage in the long run. The only way I can see to end this dependance is to make it as inconvenient as possible to overuse and quite frankly abuse these resources. Can’t build a titan except in sov space, but who can gain sov space to hold when all you need is to titan bridge a blob fleet in and destroy everything. It is a downward spiral that leads to people just staying in hi sec eventually getting bored and quitting. I know that as a rookie I’m just supposed to shut up and carry the veteran players pads, sing the fight song, and just wait for my turn but I gotta tell you if things continue on as they have been it won’t be too long before even the most bitter vets look at the null sec map shake their heads and just quit in disgust.