Comments

I got lots and lots of really good comments on my tent-pole post last week, Overwhelming Force. And I was really pleased that a lot of you just GOT it. The post was necessarily a little bit subtle — well, as subtle as a post full of WWII references can be — but a lot of the comments I’ve gotten particularly via EVE mail and on Skype, really got the heart of what I was trying to say. Darkwater wrote (and it’s the comment of the week, edited slightly):

Perhaps Null should just be left alone for those who like to play that style of game. It sucks, but apparently a lot of people enjoy that type of gameplay.

The new space they plan to open up though, that might be a great way to introduce new and better mechanics to a section of EVE space for those who enjoy the type of tactical gameplay that you enjoy. There is absolutely no reason that CCP just just copy/paste systems and mechanics that already exist into the new space they are opening up. They could literally change all the rules when it comes to it, and invent lore to support it.

It’s a golden opportunity for them to shake things up and open the game up to new and different play styles, require all players to relearn how things work, ect. Think of it almost as EVE 2.0, without actually making a brand new game.

And yeah, I have to admit there was a certain amount of “there’s no fixing the current kid, so let’s make sure the next kid is perfect” in my thinking. 😉

Lots and lots of you brought up the idea of cool-down timers to try to fix the current kid — er, rather to deal with the current ludicrous fleet mobility — and it’s something that I’ve wrestled with from time to time particularly when the cool-down timers are attached to ships. What’s to prevent rich alliances from just switching supers/dreads/carriers/whatever like the Pony Express used to switch horses? So when these suggestions are thrown at me to reduce mobility, I always respond “Well, if it’s a cool-down timer, how about putting the jump cool-down timer on the pod?” Nobody I’ve presented that to has been able to come up with a major downside to the idea. Can you?

But a comment that I really want to highlight is the alternative view, written by Abdiel Kavash of FCON. It’s long — really long, practically a blog post in itself! — but if you’re interested in this topic, it’s worth your time. Call it the counter-point to my post. The whole thing is worth reading, but I want to focus on one particular bit:

…there is one coalition in the game that values strategic victories more than masturbating over killmails. That coalition is right now leading an offensive in no less than three distinct fronts in an effort to separate enemy fleets and lure their forces away from strategically important objectives by chasing killmails of some marginally relevant alliances. (Reminds you of something from the post?) How well this will work we will see in the following days and weeks.

That same coalition in not so distant past captured two regions by using nothing but fast stealth bombers, running in circles around enemy fleets and never putting our significant assets under the danger of enemy supercapital Overwhelming Force. This is pretty much the definition of guerrilla warfare taken to the extreme.

You mentioned logistics and supply lines. Some time ago, in the middle of a typical back-and-forth sovereignty struggle (I’m sorry, I’m bad at remembering details, I couldn’t tell you which battle or which system this was in) a sudden call went out for one particular outpost timer. A broadcast storm so massive one would think VFK was under attack. Why was this timer so much more important than anything else in that war until then? Our spies found out that the enemy alliance was keeping all of their SRP replacement ships in one station. Dozens of billions of ships, now inaccessible due to our station capture and lockout. This was a turning point in that war, unable to replace lost ships the enemy quickly fell.

Now, dig into this wall of text and you — or at least I — realize that he’s right. What IS the CFC southeastern campaign except a massive diversion of enemy forces away from where those enemy forces would rather be fighting? This gives an entirely different spin to the idea of overwhelming force. The classic horror of warfare is the idea of fighting on two major fronts simultaneously, but the CFC has now grown big enough that they can do it if they have to… but they can often prevent having to do it through diplomacy… simultaneously! It was a really interesting way to think about the on-going war.

“Nerf diplomacy” I believe the saying goes…

So thanks to everyone for all your comments! Really interesting stuff!

– Ripard Teg

If you would like to read more we invite you to visit his blog here.

50 Comments

  1. the one

    but they can often prevent having to do it through diplomacy …………… nah its not really diplomacy they just pay people off

    December 16, 2013 at 13:30 Reply
  2. Tiago D'Agostini

    The “nerf diplomacy” is the reason why We should have large and powerful moon goo siphons that do not identify who places them. That can steal a POS completely in 8 hours. And would cause a lot of internal mistrust when fatally most of those POS would be stolen by people from the alliance and allies.

    Not only that, but several actions like these, that makes too easy for “fake friends” to steal you would gradually make the coalitions become less integrated, with more well defines frontiers ( for hell, NATO countries do not simply allow german army to roam freely on their territories.. they have a healthy distrust of them ).

    If while most of CFC is fighting in south, some of their members of allies coudl stole dozens of billions udner their noses undetected, jsut because they have blue standings, that would soon cause a revision on the number of blues everyone had.

    It snot easy to create such rules, but they could be the way to keep the coalitions less integrated and smaller.

    December 16, 2013 at 13:51 Reply
  3. GFY

    This is almost as bad as a Goblin article. Also “I got lots and lots of really good comments on my tent-pole post last week”…you might mention the crap thats posted here, its like whats the fk is a tentpole post, unless we have to click and go visit your blog.

    Oh, and incase it wasnt understoood, by my first sentence. This article is fkn stupid.

    December 16, 2013 at 15:55 Reply
    1. Teky

      Uh, people care what he thinks because he makes a very valid point.

      December 16, 2013 at 16:06 Reply
      1. GFY

        Doesnt look valid to me, just looks like useless babble. And to be honest, Im a little unsure if he even plays what he talks about.

        December 16, 2013 at 23:55 Reply
        1. Ciaphas Cyne

          u mad bro? does no one visit ur blog?

          December 17, 2013 at 09:54 Reply
        2. person

          A playstyle where players actually contribute more to a fleet than F1’ing the broadcasted target, a playstyle where ability and skill was actually relevant (for all participants – not just the FC) above small gangs. Its funny that CCP have been encouraging these bigger and bigger fights, because currently the best tactic is throwing numbers at everything, when everybody agrees 10% tidi is horrible and they haven’t got the hardware to support it.

          The thing I disagree with is this new space being where the changes need to be, because low sec and NPC 0.0 could easily provide content for those that want more engaging PVP but get hardly any love from CCP and I assume with new space that means those areas will get even less attention as CCP spreads itself even thinner.

          December 17, 2013 at 17:34 Reply
  4. Csm8 is shit

    Where is the fucking minutes. Csm8 is by far the worst.

    December 16, 2013 at 15:55 Reply
    1. Mikey

      Dolan has had them for a month now, CSM handed them in ages ago, so its CCP’s fault now

      December 16, 2013 at 19:19 Reply
      1. Kamar Raimo

        Dolan should be shot more often with paintballs.

        December 17, 2013 at 11:57 Reply
      2. Csm8 is shit

        csm should be pushing for release not making shit post

        December 17, 2013 at 21:39 Reply
    2. Scott Lockwood III

      They’re inside your mom.

      December 17, 2013 at 01:34 Reply
  5. Teky

    Amazing article, it’s great to know more people are thinking what I’ve been thinking for a while: EVE needs tactics and strategy.

    December 16, 2013 at 16:04 Reply
  6. sister_uta

    I know you’re more interested in tactics than a mechanics fix, but this just makes sense to me as a solution. Add a new bomb to the game with a decreased damage and massively increased explosive radius that will cover most of all of a large engagement area. As such a large bomber wing becomes a threat to an entire field, and discourages clumping into large groups. The need for significantly more bombers makes it unlikely that you would throw this at small or even medium fleets, and the larger radius also means that the bombers themselves are likely to be caught in the explosion unless they are perfect with their warp out.

    December 16, 2013 at 17:54 Reply
    1. Ciaphas Cyne

      u win the best idea ever award. just kidding.

      December 16, 2013 at 23:36 Reply
    2. Tarzan WITH Jane

      a bomb with a “you can’t spam local for 6 hours when hit-damage” would be a fun addition.

      December 16, 2013 at 23:42 Reply
    3. FRUS

      i would say why not make a anti capital bomber would hurt large alliances and small a like

      December 17, 2013 at 01:22 Reply
  7. Slothen

    cooldown timers are pretty terrible idea that would affect a lot more people than major coalition blobbers.

    December 16, 2013 at 19:08 Reply
  8. smarty pantzy

    Step 1: reduce jumprange of _all_ capitals by 2 /3 (that’s right only 1/3 left
    Step 2; Increase cap needed for a jump to 95%

    Step 3: see how that works out

    December 16, 2013 at 19:49 Reply
    1. Mohamad's Comment

      and how this help the players exactly? ur terms of fun is wasting more time jumping to reach target system?

      December 16, 2013 at 20:45 Reply
      1. smarty panzy

        no its going to nerf power projection making it tons more hassle to get to the other side of the eve map in 2 minutes, the wrong part right now is ppl being able to get too ‘quickly’ into the fun. It SHOULD be tons more of a hassle, the reason you dislike it is actually intended.

        Why is regional warfare with capitals so fucked up? because PL / N3 or any other badass can get their capital blob everywhere with little ease. This totally removes the ‘room’ for smaller entities to brawl it out with caps in EVE vs each other.

        Capital power projection needs some serious nerfs, we are seeing retarde 250 man archon blobs, and its only going to get worse.

        December 16, 2013 at 22:32 Reply
        1. FRUS

          make that 400 man blobs bro

          December 17, 2013 at 01:20 Reply
        2. best_burek

          Are you trying to say that N3+PL blob with Arcons? You sir are talking shit about my idols. You do not call the elite of EVE, bloobers. I well be waiting for an apology from you…

          December 17, 2013 at 02:12 Reply
        3. Trying to stay nuetral

          You fail to add that n3/pl fight out numbered in most fights .. Because they choose to put capital ships at risk make them blobbers??? If the mighty Cfc can’t counter with their fleets twice to 3 times the size.. Which I guess isn’t blobbing something is very wrong…

          December 17, 2013 at 14:46 Reply
    2. Fredyy

      So what you’re saying is you want coalitions like the CFC to rule because they have 37,000 pilots and can keep them in sub caps all the time if they wish, to crush any entity they like. Supers are a problem but so is blue-balling (perpetrated by Goonswarm, Razor and all the other alliances they allied with at such high levels the likes of which I have never seen before ever). Couldn’t make the game more risk free if you tried.

      December 17, 2013 at 08:50 Reply
  9. Burseg Sardaukar

    I had a vision similar to the example above about how the new space Seagull keeps hinting to could work:

    http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2013/11/ccp-seagulls-vision-my-hopes.html

    December 16, 2013 at 21:46 Reply
    1. best_burek

      I had a vision once…..Then I came down from the acid trip.

      December 17, 2013 at 02:15 Reply
  10. Bitter Vet since '04

    TLDR; This game is still shit for a game in the year 2013. PVE? STILL SHIT PVP? STILL, Nullsex? STILL SHIT. THE PROBLEM WITH EVE IS ALL CONTENT TOO FUCKING BORING. AT THE END OF THE DAY WHO WANTS TO READ ALLIANCE MAILS FROM EMO RAGGING FAGGOTS AFTER A HARD DAY AT WORK.

    December 16, 2013 at 22:37 Reply
    1. Ciaphas Cyne

      despite the all caps and annoying anti-gay bullshit that you should have outgrown at this point…..

      i see your…point? 90% of eve is boring. for me, i discovered how to make that 10% be all i do, and im having fun. just stop doing the stuff u dont like. problem solved.

      but yea, all of pve is mind numbing, tidi is a terrible solution to a problem that really just needs money thrown at it…money that is being pissed down a drain on dust and vampire games…

      December 16, 2013 at 23:35 Reply
    2. xxxxx

      That really bitter.

      December 17, 2013 at 01:44 Reply
    3. best_burek

      AMEN brother! Don’t listen to all these homos that think EVE is their life.

      December 17, 2013 at 02:05 Reply
  11. best_burek

    The problem with supers and larger capita ships is there is no maintenance cost associated with them. Even in a fantasy game there should be wear and tear on stuff or simply have CCCP tax supers. Anything above lets say 5 per alliance the tax lets say doubles for every super per month. Just an idea.

    December 17, 2013 at 02:27 Reply
    1. fun with numbers

      While we are at it put a limit hard limit on how many blues can be in a system

      December 17, 2013 at 05:44 Reply
    2. suppa123

      There is already ‘tax’ for having super.
      You cannot dock, use another ships and your character
      is locked to that super. Since supers were nerfed there
      is not much use for them but you still have to plex every month character.
      You cannot rat in super. Mostly you are shooting structures and
      maybe 4 x year in big fleet fight where you might lose your super..

      Its not so super…

      December 17, 2013 at 06:14 Reply
      1. Master Sergeant MacRobert

        The reason that is the case is because a Super force larger than your Super force can cheaply and quickly relocate across 10 regions. If it was not soo easy then you would have more super fights with your super ships. There should be a maintenance cost for all SuperCaps but it should be built in to fuel costs and it should require large amounts of logistic support to supply you with the fuel to shift your fat ass half way around the world. Once teams of supers have to deploy to zone coverage you will get more offensives all over null and the counter will be to attack the enemy where their blob is not.

        December 17, 2013 at 13:51 Reply
  12. santa

    The problem is the blob not the ships. Sorry your blob is too small!

    December 17, 2013 at 14:00 Reply
  13. ISOmytimeback

    bad article is bad

    December 17, 2013 at 14:32 Reply
  14. Cold as ice

    There is an easy fix to Sov,
    Make it work to have sov. Stations use fuel. Food, water ect. The more space you have the more it costs.
    I do like the cool down on pod. The force projection is kinda crazy. If your going to fight in X
    space, its a commitment. Not a 3 hour tour.

    December 17, 2013 at 15:59 Reply
  15. acetech09

    I think the cooldown is a good solution to the problem but not as good as it can be. I know I’ll be trolled the fuck out of for this comment but it’s really just thinking out loud… how about making cynos only limited to adjacent systems, somehow? Perhaps still have some cyno variant, maybe mobile structures that act like ‘stargates’ for capitals. That way they can move like the rest of the ships in eve, instead of ‘jump, wait, jump, wait’ style movement. *shrugs*. Cynos could still be used but with much higher and more debilitating costs involved. If you want to emergency teleport a fleet, you’re gonna pay.

    December 22, 2013 at 01:12 Reply
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