Comments

I don’t believe I have ever replied directly to another “peer’s” work on this website and I hope that you do not take this as an act of aggression on my part toward you. I’ve honestly never shared any thought or opinion on anything you have said, nor am I too keenly familiar with the position you occupy in Eve social media. I know that you have both fans and detractors and I seek no ideological collusion with either ends of the spectrum. Instead I only seek to share a humble opinion concerning your article that I imagine some would agree with, at least in part.

The first element that your article touches upon is the concept of popularity and its importance. And while I agree that it is wonderful to have people playing Eve, the focus on popularity would have a disparaging effect on Eve Online. The changes you have suggested would make Eve popular in the same way Middle School is made popular by the confused girl that developed early and has decided to misuse her assets. I’m sure for some little boys algebra class just became much more interesting, unfortunately in spite of the classes’s raison d’etre. Likewise implementing methods to make Eve more popular should not be done at the expense of what Eve is.

You argue is that the problem with Eve is that we cannot trust our fellow teammates and that other games have ways to sort of force that trust. Well first off, no trust that is forced is real trust. So if we look at trust as a virtue in the same manner we would look at friendship, love, and patience, trust is not something that your parameters would create.

When you play your WoT game, it isn’t trust in your teammates that makes you feel assured they won’t shoot you in the back. It’s the parameters of the game. When I provide vital intel to another party, or decloak and engage an opponent, it’s trust that I have that those other parties will pull through and accompany me on my task.

As someone that’s helped create and run a small corp, and can say with no shame, had imploded in on itself in large part due to issues that may have been avoided or at least resolved by some of the mechanisms you had suggested, I can say I am still against said mechanisms. I enjoy the idea of not out right knowing. The unpredictability of it all is the appeal that draws everyone to this game. “Eve is real” because when you don’t force virtues such as trust, when they present themselves, they really are authentic. Give me rare and authentic trust over a false mechanized version any day.

You give the example of what the president can or cannot do. I’m not sure the example is a very good one. A president is not the “CEO” of a country. CEOs in Eve act more like dictators. So in effect someone like Saddam Hussein COULD indeed do specifically those things. If you are asking for tools in the alliance/corp mechanisms that would allow for a more democratic structure, that’d be something else. But the choice should always be left there.

The draw and appeal of Eve is its unpredictability and the freedom of choice. This is way I was against the recent change on the EULA concerning people and their alts. While I can’t say I’m the most trusting person in Eve or other wise, I do appreciate the those authentic moments of actual trust. So for me, it isn’t that I am one of those people that would get upset over such changes because it would make it more difficult for me to scam or betray people. I have yet to find a good enough reason to act in that manner. But to me it is because it is only with a true freedom of choice that we see authentic, and not mechanized trust.

Leave it unpredictable and wild, it makes it kind of interesting.

– Seraph IX Basarab

  • ddd

    I think this article would have been perfect if it ended with “Goblin you dick”.
    But this should be sufficient for now.

    • I LOLD

      A little coke came out of my nose as i read this.

      thankyou

      • gimmah!

        Pass the blow Captain Columbia!

  • Felix

    Why so many analogies? Every article this guy writes has some stupid analogy, that doesn’t help explain anything at all, you read his analogy and think to yourself…what the hell is he talking about?

    “A vocabulary of truth and simplicity will be of service throughout your life.”

    • heh…..

      He speaks with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy
      who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those
      boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at
      high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one
      of those boxes with a pinhole in it.

    • You’re wrong.

      One analogy to illustrate a side point is not “so many”. Stop crying.

      • Stating the obvious

        He actually does analogies in “many” article, and they are often very stupid.

        • Who cares

          If he does stupid analogies in other articles, go respond to those articles. There’s only one analogy in this article, stop crying.

    • hurhur

      confirming this is a goblin alt ^

      • Stating the obvious

        Anyone that thinks Seraph is a bad writer is clearly they are Goblin alt…. In on honesty they are both awfully stupid when it comes to eve topic’s, it’s just when Seraph writes he makes stupid analogies about things that don’t need analogies frankly…. Does anyone really need “popularity” explained to them? Did the story about a girl going though puberty help you understand popularity better?

        The analogy was not only stupid, but it was not even necessary. The fact that he is being whiteknighted about this is hilarious.

        • still mad bruh?

          youd probably be taken more seriously if you weren’t an illiterate serf sheep fucker

          • Stating the obvious

            Sorry if my spelling/grammar isn’t perfect, English is literally my third language. I actually know better then to take part on English forums as grammar nazi is the go to insult when people don’t have anything rational to say. I have always found it funny how most people my age in my country speak two or three languages, and most in North America anyone is stupid if they can’t speak perfect English.

          • Herpy

            Congrats analogy nazi, you are one half step above grammar nazi.

          • Dumbass lol…

            Oh the irony of writing in bruh, and being a grammar nazi at the same time.

        • Noisrevbus

          Obviously they do, given the amount of comments you see floating about the EVE-community that regard short-term popularity as some sort of idealized modern capitalist goal to strive for. If there’s one analogy that was very fitting, it’s the puberty one.

  • WhySoBrah

    Stop being bad seraph PLZ. WHY SO SERIOUS

  • Dennis the Dreamer

    Seraph and Goblin should duel in game. We will watch.

    • BlackHelmetMan

      It would be funny when goblin realizes he has trouble fighting things that shoot back after claiming to be the king of PvP from ganking mining barges.

      It was funny watching him claim the be a better pilot than anyone in RnK because he had never lost a ship while ganking miners.

  • Long Muppet

    Not trying to be a troll, but has anyone honestly ever agreed with Goblin?

    • Guy

      He’s alright at making pretend space/WoW dollars.

      Otherwise no, I don’t think anyone ever has.

    • Once upon a time…

      There was one article a few months ago that people had a “This makes sense… who the hell is this?!” but he burned that little bit of credibility looooonnngggg ago.

  • Justin May

    Thank you. Nice article man. Makes glevon look like an illiterate basement gimp with a sandy vagina. 🙂

  • Atogrim

    You, Sir, are my personal hero.

  • John

    CHIRPS

  • ohdear

    The problem is, EVE IS NOT REAL, and i wish people would stop with all that bollocks, because quite frankly is a whole load of bullshit. See the problem is you guys simply dont understand is this, in real world if you was to buy something, trade something etc you would have say a contract, or you could see the goods before you buy it etc, you can get references, stuff like that. You have some guarantees, and also if someone does try to scam you, you can at least punch them in the face if they tried In eve there is no such mechanisms (other than a contract), which is a little flaky at best, but it works in its simpliest form. I put up a contract to sell something for a price you accept it, you get your goods i get mine, easy. However there are some things that cant be, for example bogus rentals schemes, purely based on trust. There is no contract, no official rental agreement nothing, therefore its give us your isk, scammed, close chat, blocked and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. So please tell me why the person should have some sort of way of protection? This is why new players dont stay and eve is not expanding (and please dont tell me it is) becuase people like goons prey on the newbs, take all their isk and thats it they quit. Do you not realise how much of a massive damaging impact scamming actually has on the game, and how it effects people? The big corps heists, yeah great, but personal scamming really pisses people off, especially when it takes ages to earn that isk as a new player. You have to remember new players no fuck all about eve, and when they see a massive alliance like goons with lots of space they instantly think they can trust them, infact they are the worse people to trust. It was a good move by CCP, infact i would remove scamming altogether its destroying the game IMO. Or at least have a better system in place for contracts that covers things like rentals etc. Maybe CCP could have some kind of NPC third party, maybe a rental system could be put in place that puts your money in escrow, so after a week/month the money automatically gets paid to the alliance your renting from.

    • meeeeee

      you think in the real world, everything happens through official contracts?? seriously?

      • Hahaha

        Why is Chribba trusted with titan transfers again? Obvious Goblin rage is obvious.

        • meh

          because he makes alot more from the hundreds of titan trade fees than he would by scamming one person out of a single titan. it only takes one scam to get yourself blacklisted

    • One Sided

      How about EVE IS REAL, it just happens to be a very bad neighbourhood (or country) where there’s no one to hold your hand and tuck you in at night, but where might makes right? Think of it as the wild west rather than a elite enclave with private police nannies.

      • CCP DerPenner

        How about making this really happen in EvE? Remove NPC null, make -10 chars unable to get into hisec, or fly ships in lowsec? How quick would YOU leave this game? As quick you leave the pub when big dogs pick a fight?

    • Truth

      “There is no contract, no official rental agreement nothing, therefore
      its give us your isk, scammed, close chat, blocked and there is
      absolutely nothing you can do about it.”

      Why not get a ship and take your revenge on them? Go kill their bears, hire mercenaries to harass them, re-enforce their structures, be a general pain in their ass? Make them regret screwing you, make sure that everyone knows what they did to ruin their prospects of ever doing it again?

      There are probably 100 other things you could do to get revenge that I can’t even think of. What comes around goes around, how can you say “there is nothing you can do about it”? Eve gives you all the tools to do what you want.

      • Revenge is real

        Add to watch list, locator agent, payback time, or use unassociated alt, infiltrate them, get their trust, steal 100x what they took from you. This is why I like eve, because I can go hunt down and fuck over people that fuck me.

        • really?

          No you cant

      • lol

        Yeah lets just go chase an alt in every system in eve hoping you can find some person.. Honestly stop talking total bullshit. Also that people know what they did, yeah and those people get trolled for it. Seriously what fucking planet are you on? Or yeah probably on some eve planet in your head, fucking douche

    • Seraph IX Basarab

      The problem is you don’t know what “Eve is real” means. It doesn’t mean that Eve should work the same as OUR real world with all of its rules and regulations. It is “Real” in the sense that there are consequences that go far beyond anyone’s intentions and that there is freedom to make various choices both good and bad.

      • Fartolio

        “It is “Real” in the sense that there are consequences that go far beyond anyone’s intentions”…like?

        • Seraph IX Basarab

          Go ahead and install the game. You don’t sound like you’ve ever played it.

          • Fartolio

            Just explain to me. Consider i don’t play Eve. …well?

          • Seraph IX Basarab

            Like when the Russians invaded the old Northern Coalition. They weren’t able to hold grasp on it and instead of becoming the dominant power in the north, they made a vacuum for the Goons to step in and take up that role.

  • Fuck it

    I agree, Eve would be shit if it were not for all the crazy things that can happen in it. So much content is created because of the fact that really bad things can happen. People can be betrayed with massive consequences. Goblin understands markets, but he knows shit about pvp, fitting, running a corporation/alliance/coalition. Even his advice on making isk is questionable because he doesn’t understand what opportunity cost is, or the fact that when you have to spend months researching something to make it work in the market THAT TIME COUNTS FOR SOMETHING. In goblins head if he spends 3 months flying around and researching markets, the only time he counts is when he actually starts using that information. Which we all know is a pants on head retarded way to think of things.

    In eve you can die because you carry too much value in your ship, and Goblin is so quick to bash these people but when people want to kill Goblin because they love your tears and hate your shit posting, you think that the game should be changed to suit your carebear lifestyle. I hope you get grieved right out of this game. All the isk in the world can’t open your eyes to why people play Eve.

  • FA Mike

    Glevon is a FA embasadore and i would appreciate it if you take that into account before you post.

    • Mr FixIT

      You should be ashame!

  • Necromonger

    The moment Eve turns into a carebear WoW like safe game world glevos globlos wants it, thats the moment this game dives into the abyss and die’s like all the other mmo’s we have brought to the graveyard.
    And that are alot of gravestones we planted in the past decade.

    Eve needs to be that hardcore undock and lose everything type of mmo.
    It makes you play on your gaurd everytime you undock or jump to a new system.
    I agree with some changes so your corp / alliance assets are a little harder to steal.
    Or changes to some ridiculous unhandy UI elements.

    But all in all Eve is exactly what it should be, a fish eat fish / dog eat dog world.
    No other mmo’s make headlines like Eve do.

    Unless you ask glovdon gonblons about wow and he might say WoW is so hardcore that people die inreal life from playing it 5 days without sleep.

    • Dudumarus

      “Unless you ask glovdon gonblons about wow and he might say WoW is so hardcore that people die inreal life from playing it 5 days without sleep.” +1 :)))))))))))))))

  • BS

    “Gevlon Goblln, the seagull of eve, just keeps circling and shits everywhere.”

  • JIeoH Mocc

    Writing a response to Goblin’s article or having a semi-serious debate about his “opinions” …
    Is like arguing with a random lunatic running around in broad daylight screaming “It’s dark, It’s dark, It’s nighttime!!!”
    C’mon.

  • I just do not know

    There is an issue, but people just seem to ignore it, first of all we have a lot of very old players who are full of ISK, they are in certain alliances such as PL and they set up scam accounts using plex, they buy toons or develop them, it matters very little to them, then they get into another corp/alliance work thesmelves into a good position and steal everything they can, rinse and repeat. Often their main targets are up and coming alliances, because they recruit and look for people to get involved. This means that the game gets stale, because they get broken apart before they can develop. The issue is that there is no way in game people can defend against that person, nothing, also you cannot get back at the player, as he will just sell on the toon or de-sub it. It is a major structiral issue with the game design. Eve is certainly not cold dark and difficult for them, in fact its all too easy…
    Goblin has sorta realised the issue, however his solutions are not quite there.
    Lets take the events around your corp Seraph, you had what I would call a C&P type join your corp, you setup to be a infiltration BLOPS corp and you tried to offer services on that forum, this person who on the surface appeared as a good recruit, with high skills and other abilities was anything but, the person had joined your corp to attack you and destroy what you were intending to do, you were already known as a writer on this site, so they joined to directly grief you. I noticed the thread and watched as this drama queen posted no end of crap about you and your corp and you got into a slanging match with this individual which was joined by Noir and some of your ex-colleagues in Bombers Bar. This event is not the same as what Goblin is going on about.
    I don’t trust anyone, I will not build up a corp or an alliance because of the structural issues around accounts, its just not worth it, so I play Eve within my owb corp under a small alliance which is linked in with a Coalition that likes to do small gang combat, we might take a system for the lol’s, but we use other peoples 0.0 systems and the changes in November will benefit us. My original goal in this game was to build an alliance, but there is no point, its too easy to be infiltrated, and even if you lock your corp/alliance down they will of course use that person to take out your cap fleet, so I changed my direction.
    But this issue is for me a major issue for Eve and something I think is likely to kill the game over time…

    • Seraph IX Basarab

      I’m not sure if the person you were talking about had joined with the intention of doing what he did from the start. I think he first misunderstood the concept of the corp in general, and in particular, although I don’t believe a poorly intentioned person, he was somewhat unstable in my opinion. The issue with HE was more due to director failure. I had people that were all gun-ho on the first day and then they vanished and I rarely if ever saw them until the end of the corp’s life when suddenly they expected to be handed everything based on god knows what virtue. I had someone that was a director but his capabilities didn’t extend far beyond a very basic FC role. Other people I think were just waiting for the corp to be successful out of thin air and spent much of their time with their focus elsewhere. And I too had my own short comings. I was far far too soft on people that really needed to be kicked out. In the end none of what happened was much of a loss to me considering the things I had to focus on outside of Eve. Wasn’t the end of the corp and it wasn’t the end for me as far as I’m concerned. But getting back to your PL alt comment, yes there will always be the haves and the have nots and I personally don’t find fault with that in Eve.

      • I just do not know

        Its not the haves and have nots, its the ability to leverage it by the usage of multiple accounts to gain advantage, meta gaming, which is made so easy by the structure of Eve. I am surprised you cannot see the issue, Goblin did though his solution was not what I would have done.
        I think you might want to do a bit more digging on that player…, but it could be as you have said, I have seen some people in Eve play themselves as unstable however.

        • Seraph IX Basarab

          Not to insult the guy but he just never came off as smart enough. But if it were the case, i’d actually be flattered someone took the time.

          But anyway I don’t know if there is some great big movement by the “upper classes” aka vet players to keep down the newer people. People in power will try to maintain power of course but i’m not sure that that phenomenon is as structured or organized as you may be implying.

          • I just do not know

            The newer people are easy targets, because they are trying to grow, its not so much organised more like so easy for the old players to do, their fun is less of playing the game, but more to screw over others by meta gaming and of course it is a very easy way for them to make ISK and they do it because they can. However the issue is that it is something that you just cannot defend against as there is no way to screen them out in game, the only way I could think off is some wwebsite to harvest peoples IP addresses.

          • Fartolio

            Ohrly? Maybe a bit hypocrite here?

      • Provi Miner

        unless I miss the point: You can not build up because older players will awox you to death, in order to protect their position. I am thinking that it is sad that no matter what you do you will never be able from scratch create an alliance to challenge the Goons, or N3, or The russians. The only way to challenge them is to help in their distruction by one of the other parties. And that to me is a sad situation. To me there needs to an alterantive method. Someway for non-aligned players to create their own stuff so that they can burst out of the void and rain havoc and distruction upon their enemy of choice. Without having to pick a side, without having to rely upon the help from the other major forces. By the time you get big enough for revelence you are no longer the “anti” team instead you are “alt” team and before you can do anything those “alts” will kill you. You might remember a certain rage sound wave “We have no less then 12 spais”.

        • I just do not know

          I cannot be sure, I think at times there has been very directed thefts and awox attackings, but the main reason is for easy ISK for them and lols, the ease of it is the issue, and the effect is exactly as you have laid out.

    • I just do not know
  • Tiago D’Agostini

    Goglin simply does nto get the game. In fact he does not get the concept of iteraction with people.

  • Dichzor

    *breath in*
    eve is in virtual space. the thing about the virtual space, is the (mostly) freedom of choice, and the multitude of perceptions & participants that come with it. Rules of the social reality in any space are.. shaped?agreed upon? by the participants, some voices are louder, some are quieter. However, codifying the idealized version of the social practices of one group of participants, in the fabric of the universe itself is… fucking wrong, inartistic and reckless. One would argue, that by such an act, one has advanced the game beyond trust and morals. And removed them from the game altogether, by the virtue of removing the choice. *breath out* FU GOBLIN

  • Billbo

    Four words, BoB would of never died……

    • McSmug

      Four?

      • RBW

        three words lol, good response

  • Andre Vauban

    I kind of agree with both you and Gevlin. I think your opinion is more in line in what I feel Eve should be, but I also agree with Gevlin that Eve needs more tools to limit damage.

    I hate the fact that a director can steal everything and the roles below director are not nearly granular enough. Most of the roles are all or nothing with quite a few of the roles being overloaded for multiple things. Have somebody that manages your stations/ihubs? Whoops, they have access to your POCOs too. There is no middle ground when giving people access to a hangar where corp ships are stored. They can take one or all of them with no way to figure out who took them all. It sure would be nice if we could place fitted ships in a pw protected audit container so people could have access to a limited number of ships with an audit trail.

    The point being that Eve is a good game because of the possibility for betrayal and subversion. However, the players do need better tools than what Eve currently provides.

  • qwer

    EVE corporation & alliance management user interface isn’t just horrible looking and unusable, it’s also downright confusing with some of it’s logic. I think everyone who has spend more than couple minutes will agree with that.

    Yes, stupid people should be punished, but when awoxing is more or less enabled just by confusing game logic or CEO not wanting to members hassle with 100 fucking containers at corporation hangars (the only way you can do any “good” control of assets and log actions), it’s just bad game design, nothing else.

    I think EVE corporation and alliance management needs total revamp, both making it easier to use and more options to make it do what you want without destroying your members usability to use your corporation assets. I can set daily withdrawal limit to my personal bank account. Why I can’t set withdrawal account on EVE corporation account ffs!?

    This isn’t about dumbing it down, this is about making it to make sense and generally better.

    • The Obvious

      The corporation mechanic as a whole needs to be overhauled and expanded a bit. But to be honest my opinion is the same as was the original PI methods and past scanning methods, don’t simplify. The mark of a good CEO is being able to filter and accurately setup a well organized corp. Otherwise everyone would do it.

  • Chris

    I do think there should be more tools to deal with awoxers and such when they do come up, so long as you are active.

    • The Obvious

      Allow for members to be kicked while in space and/or a CEO instakick that doesn’t require a 24 hour cool down. Set your overview to show reds before alliance mates and set the guy red.

      • Ur Stupid

        That members can not be kicked from the corp while in space is a fucking pain in the arse.

  • Ignis

    +1

    ” The unpredictability of it all is the appeal that draws everyone to this game. “Eve is real” because when you don’t force virtues such as trust, when they present themselves, they really are authentic”

    +

    “The draw and appeal of Eve is its unpredictability and the freedom of choice”

    Reasons why, in my opinion, Eve is still THE game out there.

  • Guest

    “So in effect someone like Saddam Hussein COULD indeed do specifically those things.”

    Yes, he could totally sell all his tanks and planes and fuel resources and stop his commanders from being able to have any control over their soldiers, all in the manner of hours…

    I’m not against scams, but let’s face it, most scams in EVE are ONLY possible because of alts which allow players to simply walk things like personal responsibility and allows them to skip all consequences of their actions. A scammer/spy/AWOXer has nothing to lose because he does it all with an alt which is impossible to connect with his main. So the scammers/spies/AWOXers have nothing to lose, which is just a BAD mechanic.

    • Noisrevbus

      It does not stem from alts being impersonal, it stems from a group recruiting to the point of personality being lost alltogether. In that, it’s a wonderful counter-balance in a game like EVE, that the larger a group grows the more likely it has a certain recruitment standard and most likely a contingency to come with that. The groups who hang in the balance and have yet to find their identity between a personal or impersonal stance are also the ones most open to things like scams, spies and awoxing. In most situations you can find in a game like EVE that is a good thing.

  • Alx

    That os why eve friends can be considerei real life friends.

  • Nofearion

    +1

  • Nobody

    While I think Gevlin had sort of a flawed premise, I actually think his proposed changes are awesome, at least so long as they’re optional (I guess the shooting corpmates in hi sec thing wouldn’t be optional… but it kind of is in effect since you can duel). Anything that gives players more freedom to make agreements is something I support. Nothing about those changes are nesessarily restrictive, but options players may or may not agree to use. The more I get into Eve the more and more often I am frustrated by the lack of ability to make consensual deals with other players. The more players are able tin interact the better. To be fair, this limit also exists in real life, for example, I only want cheap health insurance that only covers disasterous expenses that would bankrupt me, but it’s illegal for insurance companies to sell me policies that don’t mean the “minimum” requirements of my state, so I have to buy coverage for all kinds of crap I don’t want. Whether in real life or in Eve I am all for letting willing participants make whatever kind of deals that they want; the more tools they have to do that the better; the less restrictions the better. I think it would make Eve a richer place.
    About many issues I would agree completely that many methods of “appealling to the masses” is dangerous. However I don’t really think that’s even applicable here, despire Gevlon’s assertation that it is. What it would do is make Eve a little more complex and businesslike, which is, sorta sickly, an appeal to many of us already. I don’t think it would be dumbing the game down at all, or that it’s really about making it safer. It’s instead adding a little more freedom to the game, which is something I can get behind. So in short, I agree with Gevlon’s changes, but I reject his premise (so even when he gets something right he’s wrong: something a lot of people on here ought to appreciate!). I doubt it would have an effect of drawing new players because it was so much safer, but instead gives players more options for interacting with each other.