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We always here the terms “niche game” and “WoW clone”, without understanding what do they mean. They are often cursewords or badges of honor, instead of descriptions. So let’s see first what WoW is: “WoW is an interactive media that the subscriber can fully consume regardless of his input (besides open trolling)”. WoW is like movies: if you pay the movie ticket, you are entitled to fully watch the movie, unless you make a scandal inside the theater. Both WoW and a movie exist without the input of the consumer. The movie is the same, even if no one watches it and an individual consumer gets the same experience regardless the existence of other consumers. Same for WoW, Deathwing is dead in a server where no player killed him.

Unlike the movie, WoW retains some illusion of interaction between the consumer and the World, but its results are limited to the avatar of the consumer. If you never killed Deathwing, you don’t have the achievement or other rewards from it, if you killed him multiple times, you may have all the rewards. But you (or anyone else) killing Deathwing has no effect on Deathwing. Similarly, if you never engaged in Battleground PvP, you don’t have the achievements or rewards. If you did, you have. However while you claim (and have rewards to prove) that you were victorious over other players, so do they claim and point to the very same proofs. The characters of both of you have improved and have the same rewards to show off your illusionary victory. So in WoW the consumer is not a player as his experience is uncorrelated with his input (besides extreme inputs).

Niche games are different from WoW because they are games. The outcome can be favorable (winning) or unfavorable (losing) depending on the input of the player and the inputs of teammates and opponents. The “niche” is defined by the ruleset. EVE is different from Counterstrike, each harboring different type of players who enjoy different kind of challenges.

WoW is an enjoyable one-time consumption for everyone (besides extremes). WoW clones wish to emulate its success, but fail, because they lack the funding to do so. Since – unlike movies – consuming such product takes lot of time, it’s unlikely for a customer to consume more than one in the same time. They are also competing for the total consumer base. Therefore they are in direct competition and only the best-made can survive and it’s currently WoW. WoW-clones cannot succeed, except for the yet-to-be-seen WoW-killer, that will take its place. Also, constant content updates are needed to upkeep with the consumers, in absence of these, they would leave. If WoW would receive no more content, it would die in a year.

Niche games only need to compete with games within the same niche. So EVE is competing with Darkfall, but not with Counterstrike, Heartstone or Starcraft. A successful niche game can (and often do) survive without further content. Counterstrike is being played without serious new content in the last decade.

- Gevlon Goblin

If you would like to read more Gevlon Goblin articles, we invite you to visits his Greedy Goblin blog.

P.S.: Daily evil propaganda bashing. The head of evil is busy spreading lies. Not by mistake the punchline of his recent one is the usual “nerf supers because I have less”. His article blames supers for being the reason for the two-block cold war nullsec. He is 90% right: the only counter of the “apex force” of supercarrier blob is a larger another supercarrier blob, forcing everyone to join blocks to be part of the “larger supercarrier blob”. What he doesn’t mention is the “apex force” logic doesn’t need supercarriers. Something will always be the apex force (a fleet that can only be defeated by a larger version of itself), so groups will always be motivated to join a block. He doesn’t want to nerf the apex-projection (which probably can’t be done anyway), he just wants to keep nerfing the actual apex until the new apex is his own. When Drakes were the apex force, he didn’t complain.

Power projection can be nerfed by … nerfing it: greatly decreasing the jump range of all jump methods and/or putting timer on re-jumping. But the real solution to the power projection problem is what I’m proposing: asymmetric warfare. Small, mobile groups terrorizing the backyard of the undefeatable block until it is forced to negotiate peace or weakened to the point where the other bloc can safely go war with it.

P.S.: how can someone be this stupid?

  • Waicheun

    stopped reading at titel with WOW in it – stick eve plox, or actually please leave eve and this site, we have enough online trash as it is

  • Waicheun

    stopped reading at titel with WOW in it – stick eve plox, or actually please leave eve and this site, we have enough online trash as it is

  • Chris

    niche
    niCH/
    noun: niche; plural noun: niches
    a specialized but profitable corner of the market.

    Apparently you don’t know what niche means. Here is a definition.

    • *facepalm*

      its not all about markets.
      Developmental niche, a concept for understanding the cultural context of child development
      Niche market, a focused, targetable portion (subset) of a market sector
      apparently you dont know what niche means, idiot.

      • Chris

        It was the most relevant one when I googled the definition. I have always known what it mean and the many different meanings.

        the point is he is focusing his definition of niche game on the specific instance of eve, and then trying to apply it to everything that is not a wow clone. That is simply not true.

  • DaReaper

    I think I have finally decided to skip your post gevlon.. I yea..

  • elnator

    1) Learn to spell
    2) WoW and games like it are typically called theme parks. Where the rides are always there and you can chose to ride them, or not, but whether you ride them or not the theme park doesn’t change.
    3) EVE, and games like it, are termed sandboxes where you can build, or not build, a sandcastle or knock down someone else’s, or not, and if you do nothing then nothing happens. Without you there is no sandcastle or the other player never has theirs knocked over.

    There I just did your entire post in 1/10th the space you took and described both games better all while using the proper terminology.

    As an aside, your habit of “PS”ing crap about whatever is just annoying. If you want to write a blog post about something then write a post about it. Don’t “PS” something totally unrelated at the bottom of your post just to add more words to an already meaningless (and worthless) article.

    PS: Niche does not mean what you think it does. Invest in a dictionary.

    • Bytestorm

      I can’t upvote your post enough.

  • 123

    47 comments down beneath me highlighting more or less how much they didnt read article or was worth their. Yet only ones who took the actual time to comment? :> Big boys and the internet ;)

    • elnator

      Try 5… and I never said I didn’t read it ;) I said it was a worthless article that did a terrible job of describing both EVE and WoW.

      Why did I read it?
      It’s called being bored at work ;)

    • daniL

      goblin article…. 1-st checking comments does it even worth my time

  • badarticleisbad

    The nice thing about en24 is, when I find articles to be bad I can actually write so and have it stand. On “the other site” such comments get deleted within 2 minutes.

    • http://www.mopam-eve.org Linus Gorp

      But the other side is more about propaganda anyway, is it not?

      • Chris

        Don’t tell me a site named The Mittani was made for propoganda!

  • Pick a name

    If the whole thing was about the apex force thing in the “PS” of the story should have been the only thing written. The whole part where he was telling me what WoW is, makes me think he thinks I’m somekinda idiot five year old.

  • Gevlon dwarf

    This isn’t very strong logic. How is an FPS any different from a wow battleground? And aside from a single server and kill mails… Eve isnt terribly different from wow. We don’t really effect npcs in eve, either. Doesn’t matter how many times you kill the serpents rats…. They are always gonna come back. Ship loss in eve is roughly comparable to armor repair bills. Eve players like to pretend death means more but it really doesn’t. They are both minor economic inconveniences. I could go on all day about how the games are similar if you really want…

    • 周雨

      Ship loss takes time to replace, and I think his point is that the people can’t change the world they REALLY care about in wow, for instance Stormwind is always in Alliance’s hand. Sure in EVE it is the same but almost nobody cares about those npcs.

      • Ciaphas Cyne

        most of the time i can reship faster in eve. some of those graveyards are really quite a haul…

        death in both games means an economic loss and some time out to reship or respawn (because seriously who forgets to update clones?!)

        and sure stormwind never changes but neither does jita and to be honest you can invade the opposing main city and take it over for as long as youve got the people. much like burn jita in eve. world pvp in wow was really quite something back in the day. it had a lot of room for interesting and unique tactics. you could really call a place home after a while…it was almost like sov.

  • Daniel Plain

    some day i’ll finally go ahead and map gevlons articles into a spreadsheet – the good ones in green, the retarded ones (like this) in red. i hope to find some secret binary pattern the that proves him to be a genius communicating through ciphers.

  • Billbo

    Yes because this game needs another fucking timer………………..

  • Dick Hauser

    If CCP wants to save EVE they should start out new players with 9 million SP instead of 900.000
    Theres still a lifetime of skills to skill while you pay your subsription, but you can take part in more different content on day 1.
    Since its experience that decides your skill in EVE, no vets could object to giving new players more SP. Only problem is compensating those that started with 900.000 and aren`t above 9 mil yet.

  • Dick Hauser

    If CCP wants to save EVE they should start out new players with 9 million SP instead of 900.000
    Theres still a lifetime of skills to skill while you pay your subsription, but you can take part in more different content on day 1.
    Since its experience that decides your skill in EVE, no vets could object to giving new players more SP. Only problem is compensating those that started with 900.000 and aren`t above 9 mil yet.

    • LiquidBisonRant

      or have a tool similar to the one on their site asking a few basic questions about what they are interested in to determine where to place them. Open the pirate factions up and allow new players to join them if they are into combat/piracy and make the rookie ship actually able to pvp.

      Rookie ships should be specialized so the new player can launch right into that role effectively while they flesh out into other areas. Currently anyone returning to eve makes the choice to sit AFK while they train core skills for a month or two, that is just crazy.

    • Chris

      They get 900,000 free now?

      • Dick Hauser

        Ah.. thats the default clone when i think about it… w/e they get to start out.. a couple 100k SP..

        • Chris

          I don’t particularly agree with just giving them a huge amount of flat SP. That seems to be overwhelming. I’d rather not decide for them what skills they want, and they’ll have no idea what to do with 9 mil free to allocate SP.

          I’d be more in favor of an extremely accelerated training time. That way, as they’re thinking about what they want to do they can train the relevant skills.

          • AmbrosiusCustard

            It shouldn’t just be flat SP but the first 10 million SP should go VERY quickly (like 50% – 75% faster) and they should have 1 or 2 limited (no recharge) ‘skill remaps’ of around 1 mill SP for as long as they remain under 15 million SP total. That way, those players that initially play to ‘skill their Raven’ and do level 4s (getting around 10 – 11 mill SP) can remap once they want to dip their fit into PvP or decide that ‘5 Industry’ wasn’t such a great idea after all.

          • Chris

            Ehh. Well, if you give the newbies a skill remap, everyone not a newbie will get seriously pissed off because they don’t get it. I know I’d be someone who wants it. If you don’t plan to give it to everyone I wouldn’t give it to the newbies at all. It would be more trouble than its worth.

    • Senex Legio 1

      That is a pretty good idea.

    • bitter vet

      Love the idea
      I made a throwaway alt recently and it was laughable how limiting he was even a few days in.

    • dadrakeblob

      Not a good idea at all. Have you never heared about a concept called: “The journey is the reward.”? Newbies would leave even faster, if there was only the striking complexity of the game itself to master without the easy achievable little steps forward when learning new skills. Just think about, how long a newbie would play, if he’d loose his first hard earned money in a rather expensive cruiser instead of a T1-fitted frigate?

  • orly?

    A couple points…

    1. Good write-up and quick read = appreciated.
    2. Actually… people DID used to complain about the drake blobs…
    3. Supers are presence and power projection, but also a liability in some ways owing to their huge expense and the ‘space’ (no pun intended) they need to be built.

    As the ‘little guy’ there are still plenty of ways to make life miserable. Certain accords might be keeping PL and CFC from zomgcamping the snot out of people’s renter and even core alliance space. However, there’s nothing from keeping anyone outside that agreement from doing whatever they want. Don’t like PL? Get 40-50 of your very best bros and go stomp their guts out. Will you get pwnd? Regularly? Yeah. They’ll eventually put together a force to counter what you bring but it’ll take days at least if you start in renter space. But if the group was properly scouted and lead you’d have a good time and people’d come back.

    When they do figure that out, go pick on someone else. CFC has just as many places to go if that’s your preference. Eventually if you got big enough, were persistent enough and camped enough… you’d start frustrating ratters and miners. When THAT happens you make the big guys react. Their reaction might just be better discipline to have ‘hot standby’ fleets ready to drop you, but nobody’s perfect.

    Maybe you can’t take their space, but if you take their will to live there what does it matter.

    • asdf

      Gevlon didn’t say nobody complained about Drake blobs, he said Goons didn’t. Which they didn’t, to his (rare) credit.

      • orly?

        Touche – you’re correct about the nobody part.
        Riposte! Goons did indeed complain! “AWWW! They’re calling for… you guessed it! Drakes!!” (from Goon coms)

      • orly?

        Touche – you’re correct about the nobody part.
        Riposte! Goons did indeed complain! “AWWW! They’re calling for… you guessed it! Drakes!!” (from Goon coms)

        • asdf

          Everyone knows that the only things Goons ever complained about were tracking titans and drone assist.

          • dadrakeblob

            …Which were exactly the things, they weren’t able to win against (well, with one single exeption called B-R)

  • Soni

    wow is a crap shit for kids. ends of discussion.

    • Barkaway

      Thats not true, i know a few grown ups that play wow and they do it because they either don’t have the time it takes to play eve or the whole Sci fi universe doesn’t interest them.

    • Barkaway

      Thats not true, i know a few grown ups that play wow and they do it because they either don’t have the time it takes to play eve or the whole Sci fi universe doesn’t interest them.

  • Homophobic John

    “P.S.: How can someone be this stupid?”

    Reading this article, with that quote on the bottom; is there a word to describe this?

    • Chief Gumbo Speaker

      Irony.

      • Homophobic John

        Not quite powerful enough.

  • asdf

    “Niche game” is what Eve is currently. “WoW clone” is what Eve is gonna get turned into when CCP inevitably goes bankrupt and Eve gets bought out, and the new owners inevitably aren’t satisfied by anything less than WoW-level subscription numbers. Prepare for Star Wars Galaxies Part II.

  • Industrialist

    P.S.: how can someone be this stupid?

    Easy, another industrialist exiting the game…

  • The Solution

    Use the Faction Warfare SOV mechanics in 0.0

    • asdf

      Meaning make it so that everyone just farms it as an isk fountain, and everyone ensures that nobody gains an advantage so the farming can continue indefinitely? Doesn’t sound much different from today.

      • mark

        You don’t get much isk if you don’t gain the advantage by taking a heavy majority of the systems and donating lp into the ihubs to reach higher tiers. It’s a combination of # systems controlled + individual system tier level (which decays over time)

        Also, FW is not an isk fountain, it is an isk sink, you have to use isk or items (such as tags or t1 hulls) with your lp, then sell the items to get your isk payout. The isk you get comes from someone else, who bought your stuff (it is not created from thin air) thus lots of isk is removed from the game into the lp stores. It creates wealth (from high value items), but isk is not added to the game (the definition of an isk fountain or faucet).

      • mark

        You don’t get much isk if you don’t gain the advantage by taking a heavy majority of the systems and donating lp into the ihubs to reach higher tiers. It’s a combination of # systems controlled + individual system tier level (which decays over time)

        Also, FW is not an isk fountain, it is an isk sink, you have to use isk or items (such as tags or t1 hulls) with your lp, then sell the items to get your isk payout. The isk you get comes from someone else, who bought your stuff (it is not created from thin air) thus lots of isk is removed from the game into the lp stores. It creates wealth (from high value items), but isk is not added to the game (the definition of an isk fountain or faucet).

  • Billbo

    “P.S.: how can someone be this stupid?”
    Story of you’re fucking life

    • theseconddavid

      “Your”. I truely think goblin’s posts literally can give people cancer, but if you are going to call someone out for being stupid, well, you get it.

      • Billbo

        Try harder faceless mong

        • Grumpy

          Oh!! For the love of God! Don’t stop you two!

      • GrammEr

        “Truly”

      • GrammEr

        “Truly”

  • GoonsPropagander

    WoW-vet butthurt much goblin? What a load of garbage dude, specially comparing movies with WoW. Try something else, writing is not your thing dude.

  • GoonsPropagander

    WoW-vet butthurt much goblin? What a load of garbage dude, specially comparing movies with WoW. Try something else, writing is not your thing dude.

  • josephdamienfurlotte

    Holy hell, Shut the fuck up about wow! people dont like you as it is, dont need to make it worse.

  • josephdamienfurlotte

    Holy hell, Shut the fuck up about wow! people dont like you as it is, dont need to make it worse.

  • PhReaKin Stoner

    “We always here”. What are you some hood?

  • Glenn

    So EVE is a WoW clone once your in fleet ?

  • Nullsec Overlord

    WoW is an enjoyable one-time consumption for everyone (besides extremes).

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/kenpatt/WoWScrnShot_041308_005411.jpg

  • hmm

    shut up seriously. wow has MILLTON more users eve as like a few thousand realistically. do the maths. wow is so much more FUN. EVE will be dead in a few years

    • asdf

      Of course, how can a MILLTON users be wrong? Collecting 20 bear scrotums over and over again all day sounds like a blast!

    • asdf

      Of course, how can a MILLTON users be wrong? Collecting 20 bear scrotums over and over again all day sounds like a blast!

  • Happy Man

    I’m willing to bet some of the top WoW players in Arena would really put majority of Eve Online PVPers in place. This is coming from someone that loves Eve more than WoW but I’ve done top level pvp in both and I must say that Eve gives you a lot more time to think with your actions.

  • Happy Man

    I’m willing to bet some of the top WoW players in Arena would really put majority of Eve Online PVPers in place. This is coming from someone that loves Eve more than WoW but I’ve done top level pvp in both and I must say that Eve gives you a lot more time to think with your actions.

  • ShamusMcFistycuffs

    force projection wasnt an issue until 63% of the map was on your blue list. Only nerf that needs to happen is the return to alliance vs alliance fights instead of coalition. Amazing what travelling through 10 hostile regions does to force projection

  • Patrick Kilroy

    “We always here”

    And I stopped reading about there.

  • Patrick Kilroy

    “We always here”

    And I stopped reading about there.

  • sour

    why u even bother writing at all, especially about wow in a newsite regarding eve, is beyond my ken. oh and wow is like the most boring game ever (ok maybe rom is even worse lol). EVE is a multilevel game mostly for adults and kids of higher age. wow is for the like of u.