Back when Inferno and the new wardec system was released, I was happy to see the end of decshielding. I was happy to see that many alliances and corporations would, once again, be part of the game. The reward was always theirs, now to risk too.
I stated at the time that a good measuring stick for the success of the new system would be EVE University. That there was some happy medium between zero wars and permanent war that would denote the success of the system. I wrote, back on May 15 2012, that:
It’s my thinking that a 2000 member entity should spend approximately 16-20 weeks per year under non-mutual war declaration.
That has not been the case. Since Inferno, EVE University has been under a permanent state of war declaration. That’s been good for them in a few ways: Forcing them to turn hard rules into guidelines; allowing their members more freedom to do what they want; teaching their members to operate in potentially hostile environments.
It’s probably time, though, to find that equilibrium. No highsec group deserves to be under a constant state of hostility. It is highsec, after all. There’s supposed to be a certain level of safety inherent in operating out of the high security theatre.
I’m not sure exactly how to find that equilibrium. But it’s probably something we should talk about. Seriously. Before the Terrible Trebors of this game convince CCP to remove it altogether. We should start thinking about how to keep a non-consensual war declaration system in place, while not allowing it to completely strangle the operations of folks who choose to live in highsec.
I’ll throw out a couple ideas, to get the party started, but bear in mind that they’re only ideas, a starting point for further discussion.
Flat out disallow war declarations between groups with large size differentials. A group cannot declare war on another if it is less than half its size or more than four times its size. So, for example, an 80-man corporation cannot declare on a 39-man corporation or a 241-man corporation (though a 40-man and a 240-man would be fine.) The theory, here, being that similarly-sized corps and alliances are likely more apt to engage each other. Of course, PvP shouldn’t be the only metric for declaring war, but it should be a driving factor in most wars.
Allow defending corps and alliances to bribe CONCORD to end a war. The cost of this bribe should be a sliding scale week to week. In the first week of a war, it should be very expensive (perhaps on the order of ten times what the war cost the aggressor.) In the second week that bribe amount falls drastically (perhaps to an amount twice the cost that the aggressor originally paid.) In the third week the cost falls further (an equal amount, maybe.) In the fourth week it costs less than what the aggressor paid. And so forth. Once the bribe is paid, the defender is free of wardecs from that aggressor for a month.
If a war is not renewed week to week, then the aggressor forfeits any opportunity to re-wardec that defender for a month. (To eliminate gaming the system, where defender bribe costs are concerned.)
I don’t know the exact solution, but perhaps these few ideas are a place to begin the discussion. And yes, every system can be gamed. But some mechanics can be applied to put the kibosh on some of the more obvious and aggregious gaming.
Your thoughts, as always, are good reading.
You can read more of Poetic Stanziel’s opinions at his Poetic Discourse blog.
Go play WOW. Seriously, what the fuck is this shit?
Eve has a perfectly valid solution for people who do not want to be wardecced: They can join a NPC corporation.
The rest of your text is shit and you forget this simple fact.
Scarebear: Someone whose only true PvP consists of easy ganks and overwhelming odds in their favor. Scared to go against a true threat or challenge, and just rants the phrase 'carebear' with a touretts like vigor. Tends to have an unfulfilling social life. See above post.
tourettes*
oh Hi there Mr. Hisec Greifer!
I guess when someone voices out about how we can "discuss" nerfing the ability of Wardec continously disrupting operations for long periods of a time as highsec should have some form of relative safety, you cry… wow, griefer tears. So salty
Eve is a PVP game. Apparently you have forgotten that and cry about me whining… get a clue
I dont know about any of your ideas. How many 20+ carebear corps have been vaporised by 2-5 man greifer corps? Your idea about member ratio's is sound if all Eve corps are around the same skill and organization level. But obviously this isnt the case.
Your second idea about bribing concord has a very nice footing i like it. But i would twist it. I'm personally not a greifer, but i have decked entities that have deliberately been shitheads. You know what happens? After paying 50+mil, they all either disband and join npc corps, stay docked or never log on. Now the station games and players logging on you can't control. But when a member leaves that corp i think a penalty fee should be payed, a fee that is paid to the aggressing corp. Afterall they are paying for targets so logically if those targets want to leave they should have to pay a certain amount to the agressor in order to do so. Thus making decks more viable and brings that penalty mechanic that CCP was talking bout last fanfest.
I dont like the part where ppl leaving a corp should pay a fine for leaving..
Last time i played i high sec i had my own corp, me and my alts, but then this shithead kept wardeccing me with only 1 purpose and thats to annoy me, why should i pay for him being a dickhead?
That would only mean that the wardeccers will continiue cause they get their money back and it doesnt cost them anything to wardecc..
Then I would suggest that the payment goes to CONCORD. Isk sinks are always nice I'm told.
For myself I only ever dealt with wardec's very early in my EVE career. And we did what every bunch of noobs do for lack of any combat acumen, friends to hire and very limited knowledge of game mechanics. We moved, dropped the current corp and formed a new one in a different part of space and carried on.
The next time I was in corp that was wardeced I had more friends was in an alliance and had some combat skills and had great fun.
I will say this though. If it wasn't for the wardec system I never would have gotten into PvP the way I did. It only took one time being shot at where I couldn't shoot back to convince me to train PvP oriented skills and then, well I never looked back. Granted I'm always broke but I get to blow stuff up.
No, if there is an isk penalty it should definately go to the agressing corp/s. Like you said, your previous noob corps simply dropped corp and joined another, no penalty watsoever! Yet the agressing corp whos forked out 50+mil is left saying, "THE FUCK?!" Out of pocket and out of targets. Essentially throwing isk to the wind.
By having a penalty that benefits the aggressing the corp, it influences the aggressor to apply pressure to try and get these penalties while at the same time, you carebears who are pissin and moaning about not wanting to pay, are either forced to stay docked, fight or indeed pay.
It's simple, it creates emotional interactions that are beneficial to Eve by giving it more meaning.
Yeah that is true. And if the aggressing corp is constantly just throwing away money the less likely they are to wardec again, or they will be much more selective about who they wardec. That of course would depend on the members of the aggressing corp. But overall you would have less wars and High-sec would slide closer and closer to a place of gum drops, unicorns and rainbows.
There are many other ideas floating around here. The problem may just be hardwired into EVE though, with such a broad rule base and so many avenues in which to game ingame systems a final solution will be a difficult task. Take having a cooldown after a dec. It's great until you just get enough either alt corps or corps in general to line up and create a perpetual war.
Granted I don't think EVE Uni being at perpetual war is a terrible thing. They are trying to teach players about the realities and harshness of this game. I think you'll actually get better and smarter players coming out of there now.
In which case have the penalty fee only apply to the first time that a corp is war decced in a 6 month period, does that work for you.
The good thing about the new war deck mechanics is that the advantage is really on the defender's side. Thus there should definately be a penaty fee for members quiting the decked corp.
Does this encourage war decks? Yes it does.
Does it make it fair for aggressing corps when their targets jump ship leaving them with a deck fee for nothing? You bet'ya!
Is this a good thing in EVE? It's situational, obviously a carebear corp being constantly decked by greifers is no fun. However, the new mechanics give the defender all the resources needed to fight back. If you truely believe you can't fight back, then you need to quit your corp and join another more experienced corp and then you'll see.
Someone needs to understand Sandbox.
They are not paying for targets. They are paying for CONCORD to look the other way. The stated purpose of wardens is to allow highsec corps to compete for resources, trade areas, etc. not to generate high sec targets. If they want PvP targets, they should come to low sec or null – but most of the problems seen in the current wardecs are caused by people looking for soft targets because they are not good enough to handle more than a miner in real PvP. Gankers get my respect – they are pitting themselves against CONCORD to see if they have the skills to beat the clock in highsec. PvP corps get respect as they are out there looking for real competition against other PvP corps. The pretenders who wardec industrial only corps are completely within their rights, but get no respect – they're just weak players who can't handle anything else.
Idea for a mechanic: Wardecs are pay per week and system. You want to push someone out of an ice belt or blockade a competitor from a tradehub – that's cheep to bribe the local CONCORD force to ignore. You want to just grief a mining group across any region or run an extortion raquet in high sec – thats going to be really expensive to cover all the CONCORD offices.. Want to stake your caim on a system and defend it from the competition – fairly cheep. Challenge a corp in their home system and yours or some neutral systems – still cheep. Want a region or galaxy wide war between two corps – expensive UNLESS both corps consent – then it's free.
"It costs 50 million isk, plus an additional cost for each member in the target corporation/alliance above 51. It will now start to increase with the 51st member and reach the ceiling of 500 million ISK at 2000 members." -Evelopedia
You were saying???????
You have opened your mouth and proven yourself a fool… Please take the time to understand the subject before you start making snide comments.
The first paragraphon that very page page reads:
"Among other things, corporations and alliances allow formal wars to be fought over resources, trade routes, strategic systems, customs offices, etc. Corporate wars allow the two warring corporations to attack each other with impunity, bypassing all security status penalties and CONCORD interference." wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Wars
The fee is a BRIBE and the larger the group you target, the more you have to bribe CONCORD. From Dev Blog:
"You Can Bribe Me, But Not Too Much
There is now a cap on how much the number of members in the defender corp/alliance can affect the war declaration cost. The cap is 500 million. Note that this is not a cap on total cost of war – the multiplier for the number of wars you have declared still applies." community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog…
The multiplier no longer applies.
"But when a member leaves that corp i think a penalty fee should be payed, a fee that is paid to the aggressing corp. Afterall they are paying for targets so logically if those targets want to leave they should have to pay a certain amount to the agressor in order to do so"
Actualy NO, if any fee should be payable it should be to CONCORD and not the agressor, if you think the agressor is paying for targets with the wardec then you seriously have the wrong idea of what war decs are for, your idea would have the agressor paid for wardeccing and this would lead to it being used even more just for the purpose of "gaming the system" and making isk out of it. Flat out the fee should go to concord and NOT the agressor.
"No highsec group deserves to be under a constant state of hostility"
Join an NPC corp, or cry me a river.
Because what highsec dwellers need is to socialize less with their fellow capsuleers?
you do realize that Npc corps consist of players, do you? if you want the perks of a player run corp, accept the risks. wars are socialization as well.
Math tip: 80*4 = 320, not 240
For fuck. Thanks. I had originally typed up "three times" but then changed to "four times" later, and didn't change the corresponding numbers.
if you wanna stop a war bribe the aggressor not concord (oh wait they built the surrender mechanic in already you tard).
also its spelled "egregious" not aggregious
We all know the war dec system sucks.
Not a bad effort although I think both suggestions need work. For one, if a 5 man corp wants to dec a 200 man corp then that's their prerogative
How many wardeccing corps are there out there with 2k+ members?
I agree something has to be done, but with that system large nullsec entities would pretty much be immune to wardecs.
The second part is interesting though, even though I can imagine it should be alot more expensive.
See the follow-up post on this topic for more information, and further evolution of the discussion:
poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/03/wardecs…
Just implement wardec cooldown periods, if you were at war X ammount of time, you get to rest X/5
Abusable nonetheless, but could be a solution
"Flat out disallow war declarations between groups with large size differentials" – Well done son, you just destroyed the merc economy.
I think that was the point….
I believe, there should be an objective to war decs other then people just war deccing to be dicks. The Corp/Alliance that declares the war should have to pay a fee that goes to the corp/alliance they declared war on if the objective isnt met. An objective can be (isk destroyed)/ time. If the objective is met you can continue the war dec if not the war dec expires and you shouldnt be allowed to war dec that corp/ allinace for a period of time. If you know a corp wont undock then it was your fault for declaring the war and will have to pay a fee.
Why not make it easier… let the ratio difference between the two entites determine the cost of the war.
for example
10 man corp decking a 2000man corp would cost 200x more then a 50 man corp decing another 50man corp
so make the multiplyer on the cost be on the size ratio between the entities.
so decking Test 13300+ member corp would be a hefty cost for a 50man corp.
I agree that the system has to be modified a bit, but hardcoding limits on corps based on size is the wrong way to go about it. 30 man corps aren’t destroying 250 man corps. And as far as EVE Uni goes, I can’t think of any better training for EVE than showing new players the PvP part of EVE. Better that they are blown up in the Uni, replaced ship and what happened than graduating without any PvP, they go out and mission and boom, quit game.
This Idea is Exploitable by alts and whatever….
I haven't done hisec war stuff since before the mechanics changed, but I do feel strongly that it needs to remain a valid game option. Bribing concorde to end a war seems like an alright idea, particularly if a portion of that bribe (25% or less) goes to the aggressors, or the aggressors war fee is refunded for that week. However I don't see what the problem is with small corps declaring war on very large ones.
Too many of the "Elite PvP'ers" out there simply do not understand that some people are JUST NOT INTERESTED IN PVP.
You cannot force them into it, they will either just stop playing, or will drop to NPC corp.
No matter how many times you repeat the mis-truth of "Eve is a PvP game, HTFU!"
People will continue to play in the sandbox in the way they want to, whether they are being bullied or not.
You're retarded, officially..Eve is indeed a PVP game no matter what your profession. There is more to PVP than shooting each other. Play the market? PVP! Manufacture and try to get your good sold faster than the other guys? PVP! Try to mine than the other guy so you get more ISK than him? PVP! Dodging gankers? PVP!
Eve is a Player Versus Player game, deal with it or get the fuck out, you sound like Greedy Goblin
yeah!
OK, I'll clarify.
Some people are not into physically fighting other players with superior skills and experience when they themselves mainly have skillsets that are focused primarily on industry.
No matter what you think, they see it as bullying and un-neccesary violence against someone that is not capable of fighting back. That is why they do not want to fight and will not fight. They will log off or leave corp and you will have to find someone else to bully.
Or, you wardec someone who actually has the skills and experience to fight back, you both hide in station, undock for a bit, agress, deagress and dock…….repeat to fade.
Maybe use the new duelling system with an alt to stop them getting reps from their corp logis too.
Boring boring boring
Wardecs could actually be fun, but not with the current system.
If they don't want to fight at all, what are they doing in Eve? A PVP game…
I liked your post, a sandbox is what you make it to be.
Try to force those into PVP that dont want it and as you pointed out they will either drop to npc or leave.
I got to say all these people that complain but he wouldn't fight me blah blah. those are the people only capable and willing to fight sheep's if they wanted a fight bad enough they would attack a tech moon of some large entity and get a nearly instant response. Then you gotta think why doesn't this happen? those people are not looking for good fights where an opponent can whip them, they wanna kill miners and noobs.
go join a noob corp
Mostly under the current war dec system, what seems to happen is most war dec are tiny little corps going after industrials in and miners in Tengus.
This tend to push carebears into npc corps, making them even more antisocial since mining, hauling and mission running are more profitable in npc corps due to lack of interruption and asset loss being harder. I consider carebears being pushed by game mechanics to even more carebearish a bad thing becuse this.
What we need is a raider/bandit system in high sec that's not about ganking, something that makes getting into a player corp the smart move for isk generation and pve more sociable. There little skill needed to fly a Tengu around, shooting at ward deced newbies in tier one industrials and killing them in Jita. But a system that rewarded skill, that made raider a profitable occupation, while being fair to the guy in mining barges be a great step forward.
re-read your first sentence. and then just think, for a second, what it would look like, if those miners/industrialists just took 10 days to train for a basic, t1 fit drake, and maybe got on some sort of voice comms, skype at the very least. just imagine.
believe it or not, it works.
it is not the pvp factor that makes them asocial, it is themselves. many people of this type dislike being on comms, or don't have a mic.
I seen these guy in action. They often go deliberately go for soft targets. There average victim are typicaly less than 3 months old with no real pvp experience and there favored ship target one without a gun. And when people with a clue turn up, they run away, often going on about blobbing if a dozen drakes come after them in there top of the range ships.
Most of the time, you get a week were all pve activity grinds to halt with the add gate camp and station game pvp…
You think a couple of 10-day trained T1 fit drake pilots would stand even the slightest chance?
They could get pwned by a couple of decent PvP pilots in T1 Frigs, let alone T2/Faction/DED fitted Strat cruisers and Faction BS. Overkill is the general rule with high sec war decs, regularly a Hulk or T1 Hauler will be ambushed by 2 or 3 strat cruisers and some fast tackle.
People who are not trained and have no interested in PvP combat will just not fight, or they will just see more losses on the killboards and more incentive for the dec to be renewed for another week.
Blue-Balling gets results.
then said miner/industrialist would loose said drake to the higher skilled "pvper" and I use that word loosely to describe a player who picks fights with newbies and players with little to no combat skills, if said "hisec pvper" was actualy looking for "good fights" he'd either go roaming after targets in lowsec (running the risks of fighting players of equal skill points) or nullsec raiding, fact he's going after HS industrial targets just shows their going after easy targets that generaly cant fight back in the first place either due to where their skills are actualy trained (IE playing the sand box how they like) or wont because their a new player (and consiquently dont have anything close to the skills of the agressor) HS "pvpers" are to eve what max level players on wow who go through low level contested zones to gank very low level players, diff game same thing ie bullying because they cant actualy pvp against even skilled/geared players because the max level griefer fails at pvp in their own level bracket.
Station games, high sec war, high sec podding. These are the gamemechanics for the people without friends. I did not like some of the changes, but they were made. And it is for the players to counter these and there should not be more changes again on the system. A system including violence and money can never be in balance.
There are a handful of ways to handle wardecs. I dont see why it would be such a problem. The thing is most hisec donkeys think "oh im a miner.. i should not need any combat skills". They kinda need a wake up call. This is EVE, and its going to be tough donkey balls if you cant learn to defend yourself. As for the Combat itself, Cruisers have been made viable solutions for cheap, inexpensive, and effective as a fighting force with T1 Logistic backing that CAN Rival T2 fleets if flown properly. Lets be real, thats gonna be kinda hard cuz its hisec carebears and miners that usually get the wardecs…. and theyre quite stubborn.
For Options to talk about as There should be some safety involved in living in hisec and shouldnt be in a "forever war". CCP could look into some of these ideas?
*Payments increase per Week x2 Per week to prolong by Offending Entity.
*Concord bribe Starts x2 and Drops 20% per week so u can exit war fully after 5 weeks.
*Bribe Payments activates 1 month inability of being wardecced by same Offending entity if paid.
*Defending Entity has the ability to request Regional Faction Navy support at Corporate Office Systems for the duration of the War at x5 times the cost of the Wardec with no ability to set Scrams/Disrupts just at DPS / Ewar (Jamming / Webbing) level. Forcing Aggressors to constantly be on the move and out of the Certain systems giving Defenders home field advantage.
Keep in mind the above mentioned are just thoughts and ideas.
"Lets be real, thats gonna be kinda hard cuz its hisec carebears and miners that usually get the wardecs…. and theyre quite stubborn. "
"carebears" are not shy about going after HS gankers when its pointed out because said griefer is running round with neg 5 or lower sec status that they can be taken out safely without concord intervention especialy when their running round with 100m bounty on their heads lol, seen that done by one sov "carebear" who was helping out his corp's HS ops/newbies and pointed out to a whole bunch of "hs carebears" about the above facts, next thing you know ganker corp members were getting chased around the whole region, while in catalysts by a whole bunch of T1 frigates eager to get payback and collect the 100m bounty on the gankers heads
war decs are supposed to be there for griefing targets in high sec. This is the method by which you target people in an otherwise safe environment. You are an idiot. So an organization gets large and basically MAKES themselves a target. Whoopdidoo. There is no guarantee that high sec is safe.
they could be safer just by moving to low sec. its emptier and you have more options available to you. Stop whining and adapt.
All terrible ideas…..size differential take away lone wolf tactics or any other guerrilla tactics during war decks. CCP concord should be the only pure thing in this game.3 war decks only last a aloted time is stupid just because of my next statement. War decks force people to get off their ass and find solutions if you do nothing About it you are nothing and will leave the game. Eve is not a game to be easy eve is a game to adapt and overcome I learned how to pvp by being comets toy war decked and then I move to null sec because I kicked my agressors asses
How about we just make the damn war decs expensive? Find a point where you dont mind spending the money to shoot people you hate, but make it not economical to perma dec as many noob corps as you can find for the purpose of griefing?
From a Null perspective War Dec are dumb. There is no fighting as Null Alliances are not interested and WT only shoot at indy stuff mostly. So… there are no glorious battles.
— From Null perspective that's a very broken mechanic. How about giving them docking rights
That will stir the pot a little.
CCP did properly balance wardecs once for a couple days. Remember? Defenders could make it mutual and get an unlimited allies. Prior to this, and after CCP "fixed" dec's, whenever an attacker was outclassed they would just drop the dec, but with this system and good enough diplo work defenders can finally get some teeth and people will think twice before dec'ing others.
Dont fix anything that isnt broken. You ideas are stupid….just stupid. Did I already mention stupid ?
0.0 alliances should fuck off and stay in 0.0 if you cant handel being war deced.
also eve-uni is quite happy with there wars and dont need white knighting
the idea of eve is you have to survive, so either sneak around avoiding your enemies, or hire mercs to show them what a bad idea wardeccing you is, choice is yours, or go play another game.