Dev Post: CCP Sreegs on the EVE-UNI 320Bil seizure…

By riverini | Feb 12th 2013 4:54PM
128 Comments

EVE_uni

Well it seems like the EVE University scandal just hit rock bottom. As if it wasn’t enough to have botters within their ranks, the top brass of their membership tried to instigate a small riot after having almost 320 billion seized from their coffers as reprisal.

In case you haven’t taken the time to read Poetic Stanziel’s in depth article, here is the lowdown.

From my dropbox:

tl;dr: E-UNI member with spotless record gets temp banned for suspected botting. Is told to go away when he professes innocence and provides proof. Decides to just leave EVE and donates 300 billion ISK to E-UNI. E-UNI asks CCP if its all legit, CCP removes it. E-UNI asks why even leave it with him if it was legit, and is concerned that CCPs security team have no oversight. E-UNI is told to go away. CCP’s security team have no oversight?

Pretty much what happened:

- An EVE-UNI member named “John” made a shitload of ISK manipulating several market Hubs utilising different accounts.
- He even created a website which could be run using the in game browser (IGB) so he could track and change market orders with alarming accuracy.
- CCP Games recently gave him a 14-days botting ban.
- The dude flips, give all his stuff to EVE-Uni and biomasses his character.
- Two weeks afterwards, the assets are seized from EVE-UNI coffers.
- Shit hits the fan.

Several threads has been opened in the EVE-O forums in an attempt to create enough critical mass to bite CCP Games hand and somehow revert this issue. Most of the criticism came from CCP Games’ perceived inconsistency; “We don’t take assets, oh wait we’ll take them.”. One of these threads was replied to by CCP Games head of security, CCP Sreegs, who responded:

There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I’m sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here’s the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.

2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it’s really none of their business.

3) The only authority higher than the Director of Security for these complaints is the Executive Producer and then the CEO. This is a higher level of escalation than the Customer Service arm and IA automatically looks at our work. I’m not sure why we feel we should be able to escalate higher than the highest reasonable authority but the fact is that this team operates with significant oversight. We believe the issue here to be more that this particular CSM feels he isn’t in the loop, something which is quite frankly the only proper way to do business in a unit that handles secrets.

Frankly we’re a bit disturbed by the allegations made here given that the person in question waited until they exhausted every resource possible prior to posting this then lamented the lack of an escalation path. Not getting the answer you like isn’t a lack of an escalation path and never will be.

After being inquired regarding the possibility to “escalate” the issue to higher authorities within CCP Games, Sreegs pointed out:

The fact is that we did insofar as we could being that we were dealing with a third party. This party wanted to be treated specially rather than like a normal customer and we simply do not operate that way.

:Edit: to state that escalation isn’t the issue in a topic titled quite hilariously dramatically “Who watches the watchers” is a bit of a misstep IMO

In an ironic twist, Kelduum Revaan’s whole “act” just turned from a GM action protest to down right defending botted assets. One could understand zipping through 320 billion worth of transactions can take some time indeed. Still, it is in the head of some that the money was “legit”:

[19:19:47] Tenar Sparrowhawk > whatwhat?! anyone read about ccp taking this isk?
[19:20:39] Kelduum Revaan > we had 317 billion ISK to do awesome stuff with. we don’t any more
[19:21:20] Turhan Bey > Why’d they remove it if it was legit?
[19:21:44] Kelduum Revaan > and if it wasnt legit, why wait 3 weeks to remove it?

And to think this guy is actually a member of the current Council of Stellar Management.

- R

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Tags
  • The Observer

    I don't think the actions the CCP did are the center of this argument, but rather the "proof" that he was botting. According to what I understand, he basically made a spreadsheet that's usable in the IGB. Granted, the explanation is a bit hazy ('streamlined' his market order process?), but still. Seems kind of far fetched that someone can use the IGB for botting. That crap can't even run java…

    • meee

      Again, you have no idea what youa re talking about. They do not need to explain why someone is a botter, like they never do.

      • pirkeva

        Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. If they never explain why someone is a botter, than you have no idea how many false positives are caught in the web, or how fair the botting team is, or really about anything. That's the entire point here. Unclear rules enforced in unknown ways with secret biases. But it's ok, because CCP claims that's the only proper way to do it.

        Sheep.

        • Charles Darwin

          He was updating orders every 2 seconds for hours on end. Definitely not bot behaviour.

        • DubbaYooArr

          Sheep? Having faith in the designers/developers of our game to enforce rules against cheating? I am personally happy that someone updating 1800 market orders an hour is banned from the game along with their isk.. they were most certainly playing with an unfair advantage…

          no wonder i can never keep up with the .01ers

          • BntyHunter

            I probably agree with the verdict as well. I just don`t like the way CCP acts at all about things.

            They literally can blow the easiest opportunities a lot of times by not including more comms.

            Look at the most successful areas of Eve lately. It by far is the modifying of ships…And why is it so great? because he includes people explains ALL OF HIS REASONS why Armor is going this way and he wanted shields going that way etc. He is open honest and yet still keeps vital info from being released. They all need to take a page out of the Foz`s handbook.

            There is no reason why they cant run all things like the ship/mod team has been doing it.

          • DubbaYooArr

            agreed

        • BntyHunter

          I totally agree.

          This is like if the UN just came out with verdicts on the death penalty but then told the countries "You arent involved with this, just accept our judgment."

          Sorry but I have had a toon temp banned and stripped of 500 mil because I sold a guy a ship who was a "ISK washer" They offered me zero proof and basically came out with the "Trust us"

          Sorry but I dont trust them, they are people, and they have a spotty record of communicating. They have skeletons like T20 in whom they never admitted to which makes it worse.

      • Akmid

        Yep and the USA never has to explain why drones sometimes kills civilian in Pakistan they must be terrorists by association

        • Aledeen

          Terrorists by night Civilian by day. Just Nuke em

        • DubbaYooArr

          nothing to do with eve or the situation, next.

    • SumGuy

      The only reason that's the issue is because the details are just scant enough to fuel FUD.

    • Kernel hacker

      What non-retard would want Java running in his browser anyway?

  • Mittens for CSM8

    "…and our logs show…"

    He is a liar. Everyone knows the logs show nothing.

    • CFC_Guy

      Haha exactly just quote them on that next time they say our logs show nothing

  • Expliots TLDR

    TLDR Jon used an exploit, bot, whatever and was caught. E-UNI tries to be a good Party and keep the isk but realized they should have taken the isk come up with a great scammed story undock with a bunch of plexes yadda yadda and play they were innocent etc etc. and now wants to blame the whole thing on CCP.

    • Exploit TLDR

      Left out part Jon gives the isk to EUNI and commits ingame suicide………………………………

      Cry me a river

      • Beaf Eater

        Yep agree about the cry me a river, but alot of stupid sheep who think they are owned an explanation for getting what they have asked for.
        Oh wait it did not happen to a Russian or some "dirty" 0.0 RMT empire, so it must be wrong because all players are so nice, cute and fucking carebear on "our" side.
        It is sad that it happend to Eve U, but accept it and make something good of it, right now Eve U is going down the pisser.

  • Cee Dublyew

    CCP just needed to explain that yes, it has been thoroughly investigated, including his (Kelduum) input, but that yes, he was a bitter botter. In confident that Kelduum would have let it go. I think much of the frustration is lack of clarity, and simply re-iterating that it was an oversight from earlier, but has been corrected much earlier. Anticipating several billion is no small concern to a CEO. Telling Kelduum that its not his concern is like telling a cop that I was given money, and the police keep it, with no real explanation as to why, even though it seemed otherwise legitimate. A simple "we looked at your information and his and are sticking to our guns – it was illegal" instead of very vague 'dont worry about it – it was illegal'.

    CCP really needs to work on their communication.

    • OkRight

      yes cause a bitter botter just biomasses their account after only a 14 day ban……
      most botters would care less about bans, much less biomass themselves after only the first strike….

      • srsly man

        ok, then he was just dumb if he couldnt handle a two week ban, make another alt ffs

  • FA grunt

    CCP are gamers that started a business not business men. They don't understand customer loyalty and how these events damage reputation of the game itself and switch around rules that aid in lining their pockets with money. Jita riot time

    • BntyHunter

      You are right. They were gamers first.

      I dont understand why people defend them so hard. Yes they have a tough job, guess what my boys who I trained were 18 years old, given rifles and paid 25k a year had it way harder….they were given 1.5 Secs after a door blew open to make a choice that could require them to go to prison for 15 years if they killed a NC.

      Point is we all have tough jobs, we had to write pages and pages of AAR/Action reports telling everything we did. This ingame is the equiv of a headshot. The highest level of force CCP has, so they need to explain there actions.

      And I dont care if it is special treatment….guess what this is a special circumstance. 320 bil taken in a wierd way by 1 person does not happen often and WE SUBSCRIBERS WANT TO KNOW WHY, so STFU and tell us what you know/knew.

      Thats my take. CCP tells us things when it makes them look better and denies us when it looks poorly. On one hand they say we dont have rights to know but then Sreegs makes a thread about it.

      • DubbaYooArr

        Like I said below, I 100% agree there is much room for better communication and timeliness on the part of CCP, I hope they see this incident and the fallout and work towards providing a more acceptable and clear explanation… but dude, seriously? Comparing the job of CCP to military volunteers? like congratulations you are in the military/know people in the military.

        I applaud you for your service and thank you, I owe my LIFE and FREEDOM and PROTECTION to my armed service and have friends who have given up so much for it. But this is a VIDEO GAME and these are video game developers. Ya your paid 25k a year and forced to do hard things in the service? Life is hard dude. if your from America your a VOLUNTEER in the end. How about the poor kid born in afghanistan with no choice where he lived who has bombs landing on his house and is getting paid nothing, thats a tough life. Or the kid born a crack baby bc of the failings of their pregnant parent? Life aint fair. Get over yourself, before you compare CCP's 'easy life' to your 'hard life' try comparing your life to those a lot less fortunate than youself.

        You consistently make great points and arguments on this site and I acknowledge you as a contributing and valuable poster but there is no need to reach so far to get your point across or bring in things that have no relevance.

        EDIT: "they were given 1.5 Secs after a door blew open to make a choice that could require them to go to prison for 15 years if they killed a NC. " – just realized you compared CCP's decision to confiscate isk to potentially killing a civilian, non combatant in war… .. . .. . .. …. .

        • BntyHunter

          Nah im not saying I did this applaud me. I just used it because it`s something im familiar with. THEY ARE PAID FOR A JOB, therefore they must live up to those expectations.

          Im saying we all have hard jobs. ALL OF US. lawyers make huge calls, Doctors, almost everyones jo is hard. We all have to make tough choices in life, and we all get second guessed in our careers therefore we all need to prove why we did what we did.

          Just because CCP has hard decisions and works for a gaming company doesnt mean they get a pass and dont have to explain. Otherwise they arent paid for shit. Just because they happen to own a gaming company doesnt make there accountability any less.

          I might even agree with there verdict, but they offered nothing for or against there decision.

          I constantly hear from guys how there job is difficult and they are only human etc….Thats fine, as long as they are accountable.

          THEY VOLUNTEER FOR THERE JOBS, you act as though Soldiers volunteer but they dont?

          T20 was the prime reason why they should be 100% transparent. He used the making up rules/need for secrecy to break the game.

          Never once did I say anything about my life, I said others I knew had it hard.

          They are paid for one thing, to officiate. Just like the NFL refs. Now if the NFL had no rules and made calls that wern`t announced or reviewed publicly they would become a joke…And that is what has happened over and over.

          So you taking this to the crack head level, and Afgan boy level just reinforces my point. Others have it a lot tougher than CCP devs and "There job is so hard" is absolutely no excuse for us not to scrutinize there choices and there lack of communication.

          Point to where I said. I have done soo much, I am better than CCP guys. My life is the hardest. Please do so and I will agree with you.

          • DubbaYooArr

            "guess what my boys who I trained were 18 years old, given rifles and paid 25k a year had it way harder…." implying you trained military men.

            And either way, comparing what could be a 'wrongful' confiscation of in game money that equates to around 600 USD to the decision of whether or not to take someones life in a split second, and it potentially be murder, is just ridiculous and ignorant.

            Like i said, i agree with your statement that CCP should better explain things and do it in a more efficient and timely manner. I just think you used a ridiculous comparison to try and get your point across.

            Never did i say "CCPs job is so hard boo hoo give them a break and a pat on the shoulder."

          • UDSaxman

            600USD? Last i checked PLEX was about 500mil per so thats 600 PLEX so abouy 9,000 USD

          • DubbaYooArr

            Correct. I meant 600 plex aka 9000 USD. Still same premise for the argument I was making. Good eye.

          • Horst Horstensens

            i was wondering how long they will keep on talking about 600USD :D

          • just a guest

            i want to say that someone who is father to military men should not confuse "there" with "their" so often..

          • DubbaYooArr

            Plain and simple, I agree with your underlying point. But using the United Nations, CIA, and the military as your metaphors for a video game is literally a joke, right? i hope at least.

            Comparing CCPs accountability to the CIA's drone program? Wha?

          • BntyHunter

            CIA`s drone program?

            I used CIA, because its human nature. If you simply see a buzzword like CIA, Military, UN and automatically assume its over the top because its more "real" than you can`t see that HUMANS are HUMANS.

            Whether it is RL secrets or inagme secrets. Secrets breed untrust and corruption…Period.

            The reason we like Eve so much is its basis in RL. So it has similiar reasons why things occur the way they do.

            "And either way, comparing what could be a 'wrongful' confiscation of in game money that equates to around 600 USD to the decision of whether or not to take someones life in a split second, and it potentially be murder, is just ridiculous and ignorant."

            I didnt compare the level of intensity or the RL consequences. I simply said from the bottom to the very peak of Humanity, we are accountable for actions and when the people come asking why you did your job the way you did, you better be willing to answer or face the heat.

            As I said we all have it hard at some point in our careers/lives. We all need to be able to explain why we chose what we did, and as I pointed out the things in life with no oversight become the most disfigured and abused, who cares if its a game. If its bent its broken and a game thats Bent isnt worth it.

            Life isn`t fair. We pay CCP to make sure Eve is as fair as they can make it. If they don`t do this openly and honestly they failed. And they have a bad track record of being open.

          • DubbaYooArr

            lol ok

          • INKbob

            "Secrets breed untrust and corruption."

            This is I think the main point here. A greater level of transparency and accountability is whats needed at times like this.

            CCP need to do this more. Theres going to be some serious competition coming to EVE in the next year or more. They need to get their act together and start acting like a more professional outfit to keep their paying customers happy. This is just good business.

          • BntyHunter

            Thats al I really meant…We will chop up the other stuff to ….PTSD.

            Thats my story and im sticking to it :)

            DavefromFA wheres my backup brah?

      • Mock Twain

        Bullshit. You've been playing cod too long.
        I don't appreciate your attempt to try to draw some credibility from making a claim like that.
        Anybody here who's actually been in the situation you so horribly, but dramatically, described knows instantly that you are full of shit. Go back to your tin foil hat behavior above. I believe that is the real you.

        • Moron.

          He was being dramatic on purpose you idiot, not because he doesn`t know better.

          He was only being partially serious, he said this like 5 times. And his other posts going over the top are evidence of this.

          Also I was military, and what he said wasn`t over the top about us making split second decisions they change our lives forever.

          • MOCK TWAIN

            Once again. Bullshit.

            Tell me MORON.

            What split second decision did you make that had the potential to change your life? Using or not using the meat that had defrosted for several hours too long? Hanging from the side of the garbage truck instead of riding in the cab with the Sarge?

            A very large number of us have done military service. Of that number, very few have experienced actual combat. Of that number fewer still have trained others to do it.

            And of that number, ZERO would say something as silly and movie scripty as “guess what my boys who I trained were 18 years old, given rifles and paid 25k a year had it way harder….they were given 1.5 Secs after a door blew open to make a choice that could require them to go to prison for 15 years if they killed a NC”.

            Come on! I don’t think they could even pay Jean-Claude Van Damme to squeeze that turd out.

          • right

            Once again, bullshit. What split second decision did you have to make sweety? Whether or not to hang from the side of the garbage truck, rather than ride in the cab?

    • Selina

      This is a useless comment as the founders of most game companies started out as gamers themselves. In the process though, they generally tend to turn more towards being a company in the business of making money then making good, quality games. CCP nearly went that route themselves, as nearly the entire gaming world is aware, and we are fortunate that they actually paid enough attention to the playerbase to deviate back on path unlike other companies. (even if it did take an epic uprising from its playerbase to make them take notice)

      In reality, CCP has always interacted with their players more than most game companies. And it's incidents like this where the playerbase can sometimes turn into spoiled children because of it.

      • BntyHunter

        "CCP has always interacted with their players more than most game companies."

        Yes in unhealthy ways they have. You know like hiring gamers and not requiring them to leave there allegiances behind, or to party with the huge personalities ingame.

        This is not a good thing… Say what you want about the others, that they are boring etc, but guess what they also have way less favorites.

  • Simon

    Is this "John" guy really Seamus Donohue?

    • Uni guy

      No his character is still in the uni and alive and well

      • Voldermont?

        So he who cant be named has to be a scecret but why CCP has to come up with any conclusions has to be in the open?

        Seems alot of people are keeping secrets and only want people to hear their side

        • Uni guy

          About the gist of what kelduum got in reply from in game petition
          -it was taking because of "suspected illegal activity"- CCP has now publicly said what it was after this whole mess. Why couldn't they just say that to begin with
          -We do not share info with third party members- More information was obtained and published in the Eve online forum(that's a lot of third party members) compared to what he was told by private in game petition.
          No I don't agree with how Kelduum presented the situation but that's what he did.

    • Anon 1111

      Was a guy called Hofstadter.

      I loved how eve uni whined about ccp bias when ccp gave them so many orgasms with their dec shield shit last year. Go umad and keep pounding them.

  • DubbaYooArr

    This is so dumb its got so out of hand… Kelduum's original post states that HE sent a PETITION TO CCP TO HAVE THEM DOUBLE CHECK THAT ALL THE ISK WAS LEGIT… he ASKED them to do their job as they may have missed something. And guess what, THEY found it wasnt legit? and now Kelduum throws a fit.. booo hooo… if you were POSITIVE it was legit why bother asking? you asked for all of this… some people. You asked CCP to do their job, they did it. Move on and quit crying. I bet you wish you could go back and never submit that petition.

    [19:21:44] Kelduum Revaan > and if it wasnt legit, why wait 3 weeks to remove it?

    -Why ask them to double check it? Investigations take time

    • Theodore Lascaris

      Three weeks seems about right for log checking. IDK the hard facts but there must of been a huge amount of micro transactions going on. Hence…large amount of data to be pulled from logs.

    • BntyHunter

      -Why ask them to double check it? Investigations take time

      This is wrong.

      If the investigation was not over the ISK should have never been unlocked.

      Sorry but this sounds more like they had some evidence he botted, not enough evidence that he made his billions that way….Then when they realized he gave his ISK away rather than keep it himself they decided to be on the safe side and just ban it for good measure.

      Just like CIA, they need CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT….Not Company oversight.

      • DubbaYooArr

        lol but this isnt the CIA, there arent real lives on the line. This is a video game, that CCP owns and develops with a EULA that all players agree to before logging in. As I said below, there is a direct correlation between the satisfaction of the playerbase and the wallet size of CCP, there is no incentive for them to provokingly abuse their power at the cost of customer satisfaction. Yes, CCP should work to resolve these issues in a more timely manner and in a perfect situation the isk should have been confiscated immediately, but this isnt a perfect world.

        And what if the new petition had brought the isk to CCPs attention again, and they took a second look and saw something they missed the first time around? The point of the petition was to have CCP take a second look as Kelduum should have assumed the investigation was complete had the ban been lifted and no isk taken. Once again, dont ask questions if you dont want the answer. In the end, he brought the attention to the isk and is not happy with the result.

        • BntyHunter

          That doesnt mean anything.

          They are paid for a job…to be unbias and to provide rules to a game. JUST LIKE THE NFL/NBA.

          Funny how they have to prove why they made there calls, and they have to prove why the guy didnt make a huge catch. And when they screw up they are publically on trial.

          That is the only way to produce fairness, esp in a game as free as Eve where Metagaming is half the game.

          Also the whole.." Its only a game" argument is stupid. If thats the case then when I have CCP clearly favor me and mine, and they punish yours for no reason, "It`s just a game calm down."

          • DubbaYooArr

            its just a game was a response to your comparison to the CIA, i agree I want Eve to be fair and leveled playing field, thats why I want bots banned.

          • BntyHunter

            Comparison of how something can become totally out of control and totally not how it was created/intended.

            Never did I say it was as important. I was pointing out the fact that it needs oversight, and in Eve`s world the "Security Team" is the CIA.

          • DubbaYooArr

            just curious, I may be mistaken. But wasnt there a good amount of -A- RMT/Botters banned a little while back? with little to no proof? and all of their assets frozen in a time of war? considerable capital assets if I remember correct… seeing as how that would have major impacts on -A- and its fairness, I don't recall this much outrage and anger coming to the support of -A-.. why so different now? Because the CEO of Eve Uni made a stink about it and basically took a pro-bot position?

          • BntyHunter

            I just posted a while back about how stupid I was.

            Just to clear the air I was 100% wrong in adding to the perception about that guy in AAA.

            I dont know story enough except to say, he was innocent, and while I didnt rage about it, I didnt stand up and say he was innocent until proven otherwise. I also made a stupid joke about it.

            I now think about how DMGing it can be and how someone can forever be labled as a RMT`er with little to no evidence.

            So to that dude once more I apologize.

      • Jesusmary joeseph

        Lol "Civilian Oversight". Its called the Senate Select Commitee on Intelligence, Learn before you post

        • DubbaYooArr

          EN24: BREAKING NEWS – CIA IS BEHIND CCP CONFISCATION OF ILLEGAL ISK AND THE APPARENT SUICIDE OF IN GAME CHARACTER, CONGRESS DEMANDS OVERSIGHT, UNITED NATIONS DEEMS LEGAL, VIDEO GAME THROWS WORLD IN UPHEAVAL. SYRIAN PRESIDENT ASSAD CLAIMS CCP INVOLVED WITH REBELS AND ARE PRESSING TO CAPTURE INTERNET INFRASTRUCTURE TO BOOST IN GAME BATTLES.

          Update: TEXANS CLAIM THE GOV'T IS COMING FOR THEIR GUNS LIKE THEY TOOK E-UNI ISK, RIOTS AND APPARENT CIVIL WAR BREAKING OUT. CALLS FOR SUCCESSION. NORTH KOREA SITES ISK CONFISCATION AS REASONING FOR NUCLEAR TEST.

          … like, wha? srsly?

          • bystander

            More at 11. XD

          • BntyHunter

            Also, NSA is tapping our Emails, dumping Phones etc….Carry on.

            I was joking about this specific line…Civi vs Company but it has gone to far for me to turn about now.

            When at first you don`t succeed, push forward until all credibility is lost :)

            Seriously Dubba you are to logical for this convo.

            PS the Gov does want our guns so they can enslave us and sell us to the Scientologists.

          • DubbaYooArr

            Lol all in good debate. o7 . Got me through the workday

          • BntyHunter

            Im glad man. I love reading this and getting through my day as well.

            I really do like the personalities on E24 even the guys I argue with like Guy, Sometimes Humble Miner, Observer etc.

            I would miss them if they left TBH.

          • DarthNefarius

            lol actually the CIA is PO'd at Iceland right now because they give Julian Assange ( WIKI leaks leader ) company a base of collecting money… I think it was the last week where Iceland's Prime Minister got angry at his police assisting the FBI in Iceland.

          • DarthNefarius

            Then again according to Glen Beck CCP & CIA are in cahoots… xD

        • BntyHunter

          Yes because Senators aren`t at all Civilians….

        • PL Duder

          WTF are you talking about?

          They are overseen by the Senate [civilians] and funded by the House [Civilians]

          Seriously, what do you call that if not Civilian Oversight?

          Also he only said they need Civilian oversight, he didnt say that it worked well or was the way it operated.

        • Guest

          "Customer Oversight" would be more accurate.

      • guy

        lol did you just say "civilian oversight"? What is this the fucking LAPD? Oh wait no you're talking about an internet spaceship game lol

      • mad0314

        Is there a corp or alliance named CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT?
        brb, checking and making if not…

      • TinFoilzThePlotAgain

        Were you using the Valarie Plame sign`s and joking about it? I remember those.

        "We need CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT….Not Company oversight"

        That was the crazy peoples sign`s. If so it was pretty whity. yo usay some crazy things so im not sure.

    • http://raszpl.blogspot.com/ rasz

      Exactly this.

  • Charles Darwin

    RIVERINI FOR CSM8!!!!!

  • Fk ccp

    Burn jita time?

  • anon

    If somebody gives you 300b, don’t petition whether it’s legit or not.

    • Jarod

      Spend it all and hope noone comes knocking! aahah :D

  • CFC_Guy

    I agree with many of the comments here ccp needs to communicate better..

    Eve UNI does great things for null, low and even high sec. It's one of the few things that help keep some of the newer players around game. I bet this isk could of done quite a bit for them. Ccp should of left it be since they fucked up and didnt take it 3 weeks prior.

    Ccp has been banning quite a bit of people lately for various things and taking a month to even tell the player why there banned, and even longer to reply to that.

    I don't blame the guy for bio massing.people don't like to be called cheaters and banned, especially if they have been playing for along time and worked hard to be able to earn that isk. He could of spent tons of that isn't and gave shit to random people such as plex or ships.. Would ccp reclaimed all this shit from them since they forgot to take it while he was banned? I dunno something just seems off here sure ccp makes mistakes but in cases like this I would think they would of taken isk as soon as banning him.

  • CFC_Guy

    I agree with many of the comments here ccp needs to communicate better..

    Eve UNI does great things for null, low and even high sec. It's one of the few things that help keep some of the newer players around game. I bet this isk could of done quite a bit for them. Ccp should of left it be since they fucked up and didnt take it 3 weeks prior.

    Ccp has been banning quite a bit of people lately for various things and taking a month to even tell the player why there banned, and even longer to reply to that.

    I don't blame the guy for bio massing.people don't like to be called cheaters and banned, especially if they have been playing for along time and worked hard to be able to earn that isk. He could of spent tons of that isn't and gave shit to random people such as plex or ships.. Would ccp reclaimed all this shit from them since they forgot to take it while he was banned? I dunno something just seems off here sure ccp makes mistakes but in cases like this I would think they would of taken isk as soon as banning him. Just seems weird for ccp

    • DubbaYooArr

      CCP has made it public that they are making push to take on botting in a much more serious matter lately so I'm sure that a lot of these recent bans are the end results. However, while I agree with this situation and believe that there is no wrong doing on part of CCP, i also agree that there should be better communication and/or a more concerted effort to seize illegitimate isk/assets at the time of ban in order to avoid any unnecessary confusion, suspicions and/or conspiracy theorists.

      In the end, CCP is working for the betterment of the game they developed as the improvement of the game directly correlates with the fattening of their pockets. There is no conspiracy on the part of CCP to unprovokingly seize billions of isk/assets from players, especially contributing members of the community such as EVE Uni. CCP makes an effort to have an open mic with the community through the eve-o forums, petitions, and dev blogs, they deserve credit where credit is due. People are always attacking the Devs for any negatives to someones individual gaming experience but seem to never recognize them for the hard work and extra time they put into making this game great.

      I applaud CCP for working with the players to address issues in the game and working to constantly improve the game play, albeit sometimes slower than desired, and making a driven effort to investigate and ban any individuals and/or corporations exploiting the game through bots or RMT as it creates an un-level playing field for the rest of us.

  • iskbot#1337

    1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.

    nuff said … thx

  • Jake Jake Jake…

    "CCP’s security team have no oversight?"

    hellooo lol

    you have the Goon Alliance leader known for exploiting, RMTing as a dev…….what do you expect from them?

  • Carlos

    Why ait 3 weeks to remove it? Very simple, to see where its going to be send and ban those accounts too. Either way mony made from botting is monay made from botting. Its no different from all those other people that abused mechanics in other ways. I would rather they gave that equal amount to charity but fuck Eve Uni

  • Space troll

    So another botter bites the dust and eve uni pubies can't keep illegal isk?? Why the wall of tears of text ffs? And more. Thanks goes out to King Spergelord Stanezel (however u spell it) for again promoting moar emmergent gameplay.

  • PL squadie

    'Proceeds of Crime Act'

    Best act..

  • PCP_Bananaman

    Wholly support CCP in the action they took. Pretty clear from this reply that both Kelduum and Poetic held back on the grittier details in an attempt to garner momentum behind their quest to keep this, clearly dirty, ISK.

    The only question remaining was why the ISK was left initially, which is fully answered by Sreegs, in this completely transparent communicative manner you're all bemoaning does not exist:

    "We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained"

    So, Kelduum ignores this, keeps petitioning, takes it public in a rather blatant attempt to get the ignorant to rail against the decision. Very poor, lost a lot of respect for the guy from this.

  • bystander

    Good, you lost your shit you cheating, botting bastards. CCP is doing their job. Your fault, cry more get on with it or go back to WoW and cry.

  • Get Real

    Duno why you are all so excited. Ccp is in charge of eve and can do whatever they want. You don't have the right to play ccps game if they don't want you to. We all know you cant earn that kind of Isk legitimately or anywhere near close to it. We all get mad with botters cheating to make Isk. So really we should all thank cup for a job well done.

    • BobFromMarketing

      Don't tell that to one of the dozens of supercap manufacturers in Eve.

      • CFC and Pissed

        Almost all big supper produces get their Isk by stealing the wealth from their poor alliance members. The next super that mittens makes my alliance is going to shove…

  • Azule

    to translate:

    1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.

    1) If I say it is so, then it is!

    2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However … We cannot typically share this information with them as it’s really none of their business.

    2) Examples must be made of all that appear to transgress but they won't be told why.

    3) The only authority higher than the Director of Security for these complaints is … in a unit that handles secrets.

    3) I am thy Lord and Master, place no other gods before me.

    As i have stated before, CCP is far from a professional organization. To expect professional or even rational responses from them is beyond reason. I just wonder if the money had been donated to goons, if it still would have been taken away.

    • Jack from Jita

      Maybe you should just realise that you are a scrub and cup doesn't need to answer to you?

    • DarthNefarius

      "2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However … We cannot typically share this information with them as it’s really none of their business. "

      Seems to me since he is a NDA'd CSM in E-UNI they could share this data. Makes me suspicious of the evidence being anywhere close to beyond a doubt.

  • Meaple of Syndicate

    This has been an IQ test.

    If you got mad about this you failed.

  • The Vet

    although is good to hear cheating scum in eve getting caught and losing their isk

    i think there is double standards here, as CCP Sreegs turns a blind eye to PL/TEST/GOONS botters that are rife in game

  • MAD

    This is why U-MAD is in a perma dec with Eve Uni. They think their shi!t doesn't stink! Kelduum has always been a waste….

  • Markethopper

    Some more input from CCP would be very helpful, I was able to turn 100M in investments into 2B within my first month daytrading and hauling. I use various data sites outside of eve all the time to check market prices in different regions and change my orders. If he used some sort of code altering data, so be it. But, if as the argument states, what difference is EveMon and Aura from an original coded Data Processing program? How many people would be banned for use of ANY program outside of Eve?

    I would like more details from ccp to explain at least in general what exactly was used and violated the ToS so others do not fall under the same issues.

    • mat

      There are bot (software) that monitor the market and automatically undercut so youre always the cheapest. Basically the rule here is if you character in eve is doing somthing mining missions or market trading it has to be you controlling it not software

    • erroch

      This is just a bit of speculation on my part.

      Given that CCP said he was guilty of botting, it was very likely one of the many programs out there that automate the process. The easiest way to do this would be to write a program that scrapes the market data (similar to how EvE Central collects their market data) and then uses a virtual keyboard to automaticly adjust your sell/buy orders for you.

      A general rule of thumb is, if handle all the interactions with the game itself, you're most likely safe. If a program types it for you, or even automatically brings up the market order that needs adjustment for you, then it'll probably fall under the botting category of violations.

  • http://mararinn.blogspot.com Mara Rin

    Child was handed stolen candy.

    Police take stolen candy away.

    Child throws a tantrum over candy being taken away.

    Case closed. Why are we still discussing this?

    • BntyHunter

      Because the Cop handed the stolen candy back to the kid who gave it to another kid, then ripped it out of the new kids hands.

      So naturally the Cop is a child molester who lures young children in with candy, has his way with them then takes the candy. And CIA sit in the corner jerking it, watching from Drones as they shoot Hellfires at all parties involved, while Alex Jones Drinks and saves the day with his Song…. .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksgRc770i94

      Ahh what a Patriot, exposing those that expose themselves to minors.

      • Tennessee Williams

        Nice! I see what you did there! Attributing the perceived actions and qualities of the dark and disturbing "powers that be" to the CCP employees who did exactly what they were supposed to do.
        Instead of the tin foil, I hear that saran wrap is really good at keeping the aliens from reading your mind.

    • Anne Rand

      'cause Null Sec is boring, High Sec is boring, Low-sec is a wasteland, WHs is whatever… ppl love drama and EvE gameplay fails to deliver drama…

    • Felix

      because maybe it wasnt stolen?
      because the police is not allowed to take away for good (only maybe to seize until matter is decided by a court), but because a court decides such matters?

      • ummmn yeah

        so….you are suggesting that CCP retain lawyers and take every case of obvious botting before a magistrate?

  • Roger Roger

    Eve Uni should know better than to throw a tantrum over the loss of isk that they didn't even earn. What a joke.

  • Aussie cunt

    Dear Americans,
    Noone gives a fuck about any us government analogy you may have.
    Shut the fuck up you dogs.
    Aussie cunt

    • Count

      You're a usa pet.

    • BntyHunter

      Lol its true US funds half your Armed Forces :0

      America….Fuck Yeah…Here to save the Mother Fucking Day yeah!

  • eve pilot

    CCP picks the soft target to make an example of yet goons test and various russian alliances who bot and RMT go untouched CCP your a joke

  • The_Oracle86

    meh, if this guy was botting then ofcourse all assets and revenue gained from such activities should be banned and no they(CCP) don't and shouldn't say anything about it. After all if you catch a spy and tell him how you caught him he only perfects his methods.

    If he violated the EULA in some way that wasn't due to botting then i think a more in depth explanation to the why's is in order. As he and others could be oblivous to their wrong doings.

  • SpeakofTruths

    I dont know whats up with the Nazi ass "dont post dev emails" garbage. What the hell world do they live in where they think posting words from their employees is some kind of god damn sin.

  • Red Pill.

    Reminder that 'john' confirmed that he was useing macros and even supplied the website and code he was useing he was given a slap on the wrist and threw a tantrum knowing that he could not cheat anymore and quit thinking the money could go somewhere safe before he was removed.

  • ppinas

    BURN ALL BOOTERS

  • Dis Grunt Led

    Astroturfing and sockpuppets abound in the official thread so can't get an answer to the real question (client cache reading) thanks to the noise.

    I don't trust the ambiguity of the "official" statements.

    Voting with my feet, sub cancelled, goodbye.

  • CFC prodigy

    EVE UNI IS SHIT

    • Anne Rand

      …and you are just being a dick! Don't be dick!

      • GTRPrime

        I had a thoroughly unpleasant experience applying to EVE University under the mistaken impression that they actually help new players. I waited at the screen for hours after my application process had been completed and nobody was able to give me an ETA for when I would receive any form of correspondence. I have timestamped notifications in game to corroborate the fact that a response took literally months. Ultimately I was rejected, probably because I was no longer playing actively to conduct an interview that should have taken place months prior. Although their application method appears to be very thorough and based on many factors, ultimately it appeared as though all decision making was arbitrary and based on the individual with whom I was dealing with at the time. The bottom line is nobody really gave a damn that I wanted to participate in the corp in order to enhance my personal experience of the game. Does this not fit the bill nearly to a T of what EVE UNI advertises? To take new players and elevate their experience? Apparently this could not be further from the truth. I just wanted to join a corp to show me the ropes and help me to find my "niche" in the game. When all was said and done, it felt more like a visit to the welfare office than anything. Nobody gave a damn or wanted to help and I had to jump through serious hoops just to join. Although I could have just said EVE UNI IS SHIT to encapsulate my experiences, I did not. Am I still a Dick? Might give you a better perspective as to why people would say something like that.

  • Cornholio

    Keldumb

  • TheStaafsak

    It's known that if you are being very nice and want to help out the ''authorities'' you will get a slap in the face anyway :)

    but still respect for whoever did petition it, It keeps the game more fair. (Even most people wouldn't do that.)
    And am pretty sure they will find out anyway soon or later then shit hit the fan for real.

  • CCP-LOL

    BEFORE YOU JUMP ON THE CCP LOVE BAND WAGON REMEMBER A FEW MONTHS AGO PG FROM MVN-AAA- GOT A BAN ON HIS 22 ACCOUNTS. NO ONE WOULD LISTEN TO HIM BUT AFTER RAISING HELL CCP SEEN THE ERROR.PG BOUGHT A TOON FROM MARKET THAT WAS A BAD TOON WAY BEFORE HE WAS BOUGHT .CCP SHOULD HAVE BLOCKED THE SELL IF THEY HAD ISSUE WITH THE OLD OWNER. CCCP IS LIKE LAPD AND BOTH POLICE THERE SELF AND WE KNOW HOW THAT WORKS. (((( I AM NOT CHRISTOPHER DORNAR PLEASE DON'T SHOOT ME LAPD.))

    • GonzoEve

      You're an idiot

      • lgk at2300

        Facts. To bad your a moron. Feel free to come to lgk and say it.

        • lgk 4ever

          I go through LGK all the time. Bitches down there are too scared to undock.
          Now what?

  • hatersgonnahate

    I smell a fanfest coming up. Botting rings always get broken up this time of year… even though CCP denies it.

  • Just -A- Grunt

    You mean the guy that was updating market orders every 2 seconds consistently for 15-20 minutes at a time WAS botting?

    Surely you jest.

  • AAAAaaaa

    If the isk was truly from botting, then fair enough, it gets removed.

    My query is what exactly was he doing that was "Botting" was he utilising macros and scripts just to check market orders etc, or was he using these macros to automaticly change prices, place orders etc?

    Checking prices is hardly botting, however, using automated tools to place orders etc is the same as using a macro to control a bot-miner etc.

    A small amount of additional detail from CCP would nobble these sorts of stories from the beginning, all this secret-squirrel BS just encourages people to rage on one side or the other.

  • GAME OVER

    According to Our Logs………. Argument Over!

  • Someotherguy

    Amazing how not 1 ISK of those billions was legit eh?

  • aaah how cute

    Working as intended…

  • Chib

    thought it was funny how THEY can have "logs" for proof yet these same "logs" have failed me everytime ive put a legitimate petition