The composition of fleet fights in faction warfare lowsec have changed radically since Retribution was released. I’m not so sure for the better.
Before December 4th, flying with logistics was a rarity. Something done occasionally to mix things up, to try something new. Fweddit experimented with a Circlejerk doctrine involving Drakes. We had some success with it, but it was a specialty doctrine, useful only in particular situations.
I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been in logistic fleets since I joined faction warfare until the release of Retribution. Nearly every fleet I’ve flown in since Retribution has had a contingent of logistic ships.
With the release of Retribution, any fleet over 15 ships, and logistics has become a necessity. FCs won’t undock a mid- to large-sized fleet without logistics. If your logistics pilots aren’t online, then you don’t undock. And even if you have the logistics pilots available, there’s still some grumbling. People just don’t seem to enjoy flying logistics. People are sucking it up, climbing into their Augorors, because the fleet won’t undock otherwise.
Faction warfare doctrines pre-Retribution barely paid any attention to logi. Faction warfare doctrines post-Retribution have logi fits built into them.
Those days of just undocking with 15-20 people, heading out on a roam, are over. Now it’s all about making sure you have the right fleet comp before an undock is even callled. It requires more planning, more of the right people with the right skills.
Ad hoc fleets, spontaneous roams. A thing of the past. And that makes me sad. Faction warfare has always been improvisational to some degree, and that’s been lost with the advent of powerful T1 logistic cruisers. Now, if you don’t have the logi, you don’t fly. You can’t compete in fights without it. As a result, doctrines have all started to look the same. The fights have started to look the same. Stalemates are becoming more commonplace.
Logi one one side needs more logi on the other side as a counter. Thus there’s little in the way of ingenuity in fleet composition. It’s logistics escalation. That doesn’t strike me as great design.
I’m not sure the solution. Or if there should be a solution. It’s hard to call the logistic changes bad, but neither have they been good for faction warfare. All I know, is that fighting in lowsec has changed, and it doesn’t feel like it’s changed for the better. Something crucial has been lost. And it feels like a shame.
You can read more of Poetic Stanziel’s opinions at his Poetic Discourse blog.
SOoo.. its like 0.0, stupid post
You cant blue everybody in fw, so theres that
Can't everybody join the same faction ?
They already have, does Amarr even have any space left?
Hey. We have 20 systems. You're thinking Caldari, who have ZERO systems.
Do we REALLY need two 0.0 in the game?
One isn't enough for you? It doesn't reach your mind that, maybe, we're playing in fw to see something different?
In addition, 0.0 is about organized blocks who can field doctrines with heavy constraints. FW is about random people mixed together.
There is a count to logi besides more logi, learn to play.
Theres also alpha.
Damps are probably the best counter to logi, i'm not in FW but I think what Poetic Stanziel is saying if I'm reading this correctlly is, FW dudes can't think outside of the box, or they don't know how to fly anything other then a DPS ship, and don't ever want to. It sounds like to me anyways that they are nothing more then F1 drones, perhaps it's where all the CFC dudes go when they leave structure shoot warfare.
Please correct me if I'm wrong… is Poetic Stanziel wrongfully painting everyone in FW F1 drones, that don't understand the game mechanic? Because honestly T2 logi have been getting countered for years all over EVE, and the counter isn't to bring more logi.
The only real counter to logi currently, is more logi. They are far too overpowered.
I'm not suggesting they be removed, or nerfed to into the ground … but some weakening of the ability seems in order. Perhaps in the cap chain.
Your an idiot then, like truly stupid, how long have you been playing this game?and your actually going to try and say the only counter to logi is more logi? lol….. retarded.
Like I said, T2 logi, which have higher base resist, better sensor strength, and better reps have been getting countered for literally years. I'm not making this shit up, it actually happens.
fake edit:: I'm sorry for calling you an idiot, but someone that has been playing as long as you, and even writes a blog about the game as often as you shouldn't be saying something as idiotic as "The only real counter to logi currently, is more logi." You clearly don't understand the game mechanics very well if you actually think this, as there are many ways to make logi ineffective, or vulnerable.
Wrong.
Alpha and ecm drones are two easy counters. Fly a logi – specially a T1 version – to see how fragile/susceptible they are.
Yes, as others have said, Alpha and EWAR both counter logi. BTW your article is completely devoid of content. How about a cost/effectiveness analysis? I can't believe you would cover this topic and leave out something so critical.
omg, u so do not have a clue, we've had fleets with less logi and won, in fact its often the norm. Skilled logi pilots, and I'm not just talking SP. is key. As some1 has already said, adapt or die, learn to counter, ur making urself look pretty stupid, again.
Oni's are very powerful and preferred to guardians in many alliances (BL is one) So nerfing cap chains does nothing. Also bringing too many logi can actually hurt a fleet (see DPS/Alpha/) a fleet of 150 in most alliances will have around 12-18 logi (about 10%) bringing more hurts your fleet because of loss of DPS/Alpha and utility ships.
Try playing with your fleet comps, use EWAR/ECM drones/DAMPS for example. More logi is not always the answer.
Update your tactics don't whine for nerfs. Heres a hint, the fleets i've been in we have been annihilating alpha BS fleets with lokis/zealots (small sigs), enemy adapted and starting bringing many Huginns (for the webs you know to slow down primaries so the slower tracking BS's can hit) they did not cry foul they adapted to tactics…. Try it.
i gotta say it. the DPS on every ship in the game with few exclusion's have gone up. normal R&D methods state that the ability to counter the dps goes up. same with the ewar. IF ewar gets better u gain the ability to resist it better. hell, in null a guardian doesn't cut it anymore. most the time they can ignore ur logi and alpha ur fleet down.
There are many counters to logi, and they all involve some doctrine. Structured fleet compositions. Organisation. Planning.
Unfortunately that means that FW starts becoming more like 0.0, which is exactly your point.
But why cannot random peope mixed together use fleet comps and doctrines? This is a sandbox.
I believe noobs cant use ships to fight, no logis are needed when setup correct.
Oh noes, fw is becoming all pro and stuff where will I go now?
There's always RvB…
It's not pro. Piling more logistics together have nothing to do with being pro. It's most likely to promote blob, because fighting against fleets with high logistics count requires to go over the top with damage.
No. It requires u to be prepared and for your shit fc's to do more than sit at 0 n call primaries.
Dude, I'm not sure why i'm telling you this, as you should learn these things on your own, but look at the sensor demp modual, and think real hard on how that modual can counter logi's.
Use your head, try and counter the enemy by out playing them with all the tools we have in the game, not just bringing more of the same thing.
Always cfc if you want to join another incompitant group of noobs! You probably won't enjoy the mandatory mass blob for them to successfully kill a few guys. Just an FYI lol
I'm not asking that T1 logi be removed. I'm simply suggesting that they may be a tad overpowered, and that maybe their "healing" skills could be blunted somewhat.
ehh, no.
Learn to play.
The 80% of t2 for 1/8 the cost is perfect.
WWWhhhhhaaaa- Some one got smart and use a tool in EVE to counter my UBERNESS!!! you are not fighting NPC or RATS. You are fighting other people – No one like to lose – Eveone should not get a trophy for wining. Thirty Teams – One winner – 29 losers. Go back – rethink the tools your are using – Try again. Quit your whing – Use bomber fleets – ewar – blob them – bait tank them. Use your noodle and dont scream for the Nerf Bat when the battle does not go your way because you dont get the fight you want.
You were stupid enough to give them the fight they want and you lost. Put your mind in the right place – think a little and all will be good. The time you took whining in here could of been spent tring something new that other have not tried and then you will be read the tears of other laughing at them instead of me laughing at your tears.
Welcome to the sand box mate!!! Just remember to keep a bottle of water to was the sand out of your you know what!!!!
This is so stupid, you have no idea. When I was in NSE we curb stomped most of the FW people using Ravens + Drakes + Basilisks. The only FW people who gave us any trouble were DnD + Pals who had strat cruiser fleets, caps, a bridging titan, $$$$, and more people than us.
So we've been using logistics in lo sec for a long long time, and it is the only way to make large fleet fights work. Without logistics it is literally the biggest blob wins and there is no FCing beyond calling targets from A to Z. You are asking us to go from a level of tactics of a modern military to a level of tactics cavemen would have used so you can "brawl" and win.
It amazes me that in this game there are so many viable options and people distill it down to "X is overpowered and unbeatable when I only use Y and never try A, B, C, D….. because they're dishonorable".
Finally, if you can't make the big decisions you make room for someone who can. If FW is "growing up" that's just the way the world works. People want to win and will find a way to do it despite your sense of e-honor.
Cry me a river. I like the new changes and i like how things were made. 1 month after the patch and "nerf everything". ffs. Useless article
"I’m not sure the solution. Or if there should be a solution. It’s hard to call the logistic changes bad, but neither have they been good for faction warfare".
It's an opinion article, not a 'nerf' article. Your opinion was valid right up until you typed "1 month after the patch and "nerf everything". ffs. Useless article"
Well done, you were doing so well for a moment there.
Reading comprehension 101.
He pretty clearly states he wants to nerf T1 logistics, bub.
Have not seen a decent large rep fitted T1 logi yet… Anyone got a fit?
ya goon test faaggg you love it that your hordes of skilles noobs have as effective ships as old pilots .. keep on the good work .. next thing to do is carriers for noobs … good work ccp keep on going with this skillnerfs .. EVE is the land of milk and honey for the noobs, im sure ccp will go on to work on this insane concept
so FW fcs got smarter.. ooooooooohhhhhh nooooooooooooos
I wonder how many of you ppl posting bullshit in reply to an article actually have ANYthing to do with the subject of the said article…
Bring neuts ,ecm, sensor damps and logis arent a problem.
ADAPT!
I think the point that he is trying to make because you roam with (only)15-20ppl you cant bring (enough) ewar to counter the others logis and therefore you have to bring them aswel.
nerf silly articles
Also, L2P
I think more logistics in fleets period is always a good thing, some people really enjoy the healing role and now they can have access to it without months of training. Every fleet with logistics makes for better and longer fights. Nerfing them would be a bad decision as more and more pilots learn to operate together as a team and would undermine the multiplayer aspect.
New love for new players CCP did something great!
T1 logis rep 1/3 that of T2s, if that.
It just made Logi more availible, now learn to counter it.
Actually they are much better than that. With cruiser level 5, a Scythe with 3 Medium S95's reps 3*312hp/5s cycle. That gives you 187,2 hp/s. A 4x Large S95 Scimi reps 4*384hp/5s giving 307,2hp/s. If you drop one and leave only 3, you get 230,4hp/s. In other words, The Scythe in these scenarios reps 60,93% of the 4x rep scimi and 81,25% of the 3 rep fit. Pretty nice for a T1 ship.
this is true, they are way overpowered
My opinion would be more in the direction of t2 ships being underpowered.
agreed
*Sigh* spreadsheets online strikes again… my EFT-fu is getting weak
Try harder
I just have to say, a three rep scimi is stupid, and only stupid people fly them. That being said scimi is so much better not just because it reps for more, but it's T2 resist profile.
MWD scimis fit 3 reppers. The 4th either has to be a medium or generally finds more use with a SB to keep drones off.
You just let your limited imagination get in the way of appreciating multiple roles for a fine ship – don't do that =P
To be fair, the only fleet doc that need MWD scimi is 100 MN tengu's, or perma MWD drakes(which are/were a joke in and of themselves), and if your FC is telling you to fit an MWD on a scimi in any other fleet, he or she is pretty fail. NEWSFLASH scimi's sig tank
news flash, microwarping scimis can fly away from hostiles, then sig tank.
Good logi anchor really shouldn't need MWD unless the DPS ships are permaMWD ships themselves really
In large fleets with many logis and anchor the ab scimi is obvious choice. But in small shield hit-and-run/ganking/camping/hotdrop roamings where there are only few scimis, a GTFO option is much more important and mwd scimi is a lot more common in that kind of engagements.
combat does not follow game plans. game plans r made to follow the combat and adjusted to that combat.
you should tell that to scimies to get webbed and fucked and can't fly away from anything. The MWD vs AB scimi has been mulled over by a lot of people lots of times, and the end result is the same anything…MWD scimi is superior in most regards because it can fly away from shit…AB scimies don't have that ability, they get warped on top of and fucked.
why do you let this guy post he know nothing t1 logi with roam means people can learn how too use them without risk t2 as mosty cta fleet only accept them and it nice an cheap means that small allaince can field fleet with these and still have an good fight
So what you're saying is unless an FC is on you can't provide your own content?
And that's t1 logistics fault
Dude, what gave u played before retribution? I feel like somebody just told you about logistics. Guess what, there's perfect counter to hostile logis – More DPS, Alpha,Jams, Damps or rape them first.
One Celestis, one logi.
One Blackbird, one logi.
I don't get this article. T1 logis are fine how they are now. They get more people in Logi ships that wouldn't have been able to bring any logis as most fittings require lvl 5 skills in order to fit them properly. Those tech 1 versions of the shiny tech 2 logis were just useless, now they are useful because new players now have a chance to fly in any role without having to train several months for all tech 2 thingies…
And here I clicked on this link thinking, this is the every other 20th article PS writes that makes sense.
If you're fishing for a reason to nerf T1 logis, here's something you might find more traction with: they provide 80% of the repping power with 80% of the HP bit at only around 1/8th the cost.
Easy solution:
Join RvB…. FW is fail
At first when retribution came out everyone jumped on board the logi bandwagon, now after a week / 2 weeks things are back to normal… Random roams, big pews and the usual RvB shenanigans.
sir you are a idiot ,ok ty bye
All i read was this.
"I DON'T WANNA ADAPT SO MY SHIPS WILL JUST KEEP DYING "
Oh gawd oh noooooooo CCP please don't tell me I actually I have to get smart and fit my ship different then Rupture 100000001.
Seriously, blood raider faction cruisers, a sniper alpha tornado fleet or EWAR are all simple, quick to implement counters.
Yeah m8, rationalization is a bitch
Ya know Poe, sometimes you're wrong, and sometimes you're right, and sometimes you've got the right idea, but go about describing it terribly. This time you are wrong AND you described the problem terribly.
Pre-Retribution the great roams of glorious combat you mention didn't really happen with any sort of consistency either. If we (Amarr) brought a bunch of T1 cruisers, we'd get countered with a bunch of t2/logi/BCs, we brough BCs, BS's would start undocking to counter, and so on. You got the occasional 'goodfite', but never really consistently, not in our warzone at the least. The minmatar were content to farm, dock, or blob, and those dedicated solo/smallgang pvpers got next to nothing to boot. Oh, and 15-20+ man gangs USED LOGI… they were just guardians and scimis. And lets not forget the rather high enemy falcon count.
Now with the changes to frigates and cruisers, people have gotten adventurous, 1-5man engagements happen more consistently, with either no or very little logi showing up. EWAR other than ECM sees consistent use, and ships are much more balanced along the cheaper and more accessible ships. This is GREAT for FW, great for corps like Fweddit, who full of noobs, are able to supply their nerds with cheap, but actually effective ships, and let them see something other than f1 use, let them use EWAR effectively, and in some fights for more than the 3 minutes it takes for a bunch of guns-only ships to primary each other down. Logistics is the least desirable for many people because it's skill intensive, expensive, and unrewarding in terms of killmails. That's gotten flipped on its head, and that's awesome.
And like everyone else here has said… LOGI IS COUNTERABLE. ECM is still there, but now damps play a great part to anti-logi, and a celestis can be pretty tanky, mount a decent offense to whore on mails with and STILL can greatly hinder enemy logistics. That's why quad-damp celestii (celestises?) and triple-TD Arbitrators are showing up in armor fleets. It wasn't just the logi that saw the buff!
Adapt, counter, or die.
Sounds like your butt hurt cause a fleet in fw had a logi and you got raped tbh lol
What waste of my time to read. 3 words, Adapt or Die.
adapt you putz
15 people aren't even a wing, nvm a fleet
Weaken the scan resolution. Not sure how people are fitting these, but if they aren't fitting an ECCM, just jam the fucking things out with a Rook or Falcon.
To be fair, it's very easy to cram two ECCM modules on an Augoror and have it still be completely effective at repping (about 50-75% of a comparable Guardian) and cap transfer (exactly the same as a comparable Guardian) with a functioning cap chain. Humorously that actually makes it *harder* to jam than a comparable Guardian.
Of course, there are other issues like signature radius and resist profile (not to mention actually being better at reps) that would justify the use of Guardians when there is enough ISK to spare.
It's also significantly harder to cram ECCM modules on the Exequror (can fit one comfortably, although it can run a rather hefty tank if you completely ignore them), the Osprey (honestly haven't tried fitting this since it's so rarely called for), and the Scythe (You pretty much have to sacrifice either tank or cap stability to cram anything on it).
In any case, the issue I don't get with Poetic Stanziel's opinion is that the "low-cost, easy-to-use" element of T1 logi is a very strong fight *promoter* for the very same reason that he claims kills conflict. It reduces the barrier to entry for an effective fleet. Trying to claim that "logi was rare, therefore the fact that it's not rare anymore and everyone has to conform and that's bad" is uninformed BS given that any group worth their salt that wasn't dead broke would roll around in fleets with logistics regardless because it works. ESPECIALLY the dreaded "blobs," who were most capable of affording them in the first place. The same exact principle applies to "structured fleet doctrines;" anyone who knew what they were doing went out with a plan, and their success depended, among other things, on the effectiveness of their plan. Anyone that tried to do fleets without was either an idiot or sufficiently cash-strapped that I question the wisdom in forming up anything other than a bomber fleet (and possibly a smokescreen sniper fleet to distract the enemy) in the first place. Anyone who runs fleets without a coherent doctrine in place is a fool who is literally shooting themselves (and their fleet members) in the foot. This isn't "omg the blob," it's what works, and what a lot of the actual "leet PVP" guys already did well before Retribution.
The fact that you don't need to sink 200m ISK (or more, looking at you, VoC) and a couple months of training into remote repairs means that basically any schmuck gang (yes, even those gangs of 10-15 that you claim "can't compete") can form up and be at least somewhat effective because they can afford logi. It at least gives them a snowball's chance in hell of engaging a similar-sized (or slightly larger) fleet at all. They're definitely infinitely more effective than they were before T1 logi, and I look forward to lots of fights that wouldn't be possible without the T1 cruiser balance changes.
bla bla bla ….Of course, there are other issues like signature radius and resist profile (not to mention actually being better at reps) that would justify the use of Guardians when there is enough ISK to spare….bla bla bla <- not only isk .. SKILL you need SKILLL
bla bla bla ….It reduces the barrier to entry for an effective fleet… bla bla bla .. <- so true .. noobs as good as old pilots who earned the power to fly t2 .. but now noobs can be taken into fleet too .. and are effective good for goon test… and new Dust pilots trying out eve online right ccp?
bla bla bla…. The fact that you don't need to sink 200m ISK … bla bla bla .. <- good for noobs and test goon fleets and for new Dust players who want to dominate in eve online with low costs … right ccp? All the wall of text .. just to say what all know overpowert ships for noobs without skills
Really all I can say to this one is "put up or shut up."
There are groups that use exclusively expensive ships that are extremely effective against larger masses of less expensive, less skill intensive ships (Verge of Collapse's recent mop-up of FCON's terribad kitchen sink for a total of 20b damage at almost no loss comes to mind; it's not unique). The fact that they continue to exist and continue to use T2 logi with enormous success would indicate that the ships continue to have a meaningful role in combat and that "elite PvP" is not a dead concept, although some of the entities that preached it have either died (.-A-.) or lost significant influence in terms of sovereignty (NC) due to other issues associated with "elite PvP" culture, primarily their general exclusion and derisive attitude towards new players.
For the record, throwing skills into a queue takes no player ability. I don't really regard it as anything other than a time sink that distinguishes many MMO games from those of other genres. Assuming that pilots with low SP are stupid is a rather silly way to exclude potentially effective, but new players, from joining your group. They won't stay new and naive forever, and keeping them around until they can afford to fly the better ships and have the skills and operational knowledge to use them requires keeping their interest. You don't do that by telling them "you can tackle and scout and those are basically the only two roles you can do until you've trained skills XYZ" for months on end.
"Those days of just undocking with 15-20 people, heading out on a roam, are over."
I'm sorry, you're totally wrong. If you're not undocking because of planning fleets, using a working doctrine & player without enough skills and skill at playing EVE you, Sir, should stay docked or biomass yourself.
I think myself you're one of those guys, Mister Poetic Stanziel, who probably underestimated the Tech1 Logistic and get torn to shreds by a planned Fleet. Now, you're Nerdraging because of underestimating a ship & its pilot.
Adapt or going extinct…
Read the article, read the comments. obviously there are counters to logi, duh we all know that. As for the comments… wow i think you guys missed the point? It seems he is saying that the new t1 logi has completely changed how fights are fought in fw? Yeah t1 logi teaches people how to use em before they get to t2, but the POINT was its fucked up how fw fights go. Actually it sounds like 0.0 now, but thats just me.
If you can't blast through t1 logi reps while in a 15-20 man high damage cruiser gang you're doing it wrong.
large rep fitted t1 logies are just too good to not use.
There was a time when only moar drakes were counter to drake fleet, after that only moar SC were good counter to SC fleet, story continued with titans. Why sholdn't be the same story with logi?
Every time eve is patched (only ccp and morons can call it expansion) it creates even more problems. GJ.
t1 logi is perfectly fine. The reason why you see more logi now, is because of the lower entry level requirements and they're much cheaper alternatives. And after looking at the stats they're around 60% repping power then that of their t2 counterparts, their tanking ability is lower and they're easier to jam. If you dont want to fight against gangs with logi then don't fight, go somewhere else and find your fights. If your in FW and have no choice then counter it.
This is eve online adapt or die.
''This is eve online adapt or die. ''
This sums up everything about EvE.
They have about 1/2 the tank and rep just over 1/2 of a T2 logi, I dont see a problem here, that is perfectly fine… Or should we nerf Hurricanes now because they do about 90% of the DPS of a Sleipnir…
Seriously, get a fucking grip.
"Working as intended"
T1 logi's working as intended, use brain to counter them. BTW article was dum as author is.
DIE like the dinosaurs, or embrace the Logistic evolution.
"People just don’t seem to enjoy flying logistics." Worst argument ever… when you save ur fleet and your FC say "Good Work logistic, ur save the day", flying logistic evolved in a fun activity.
Maybe ur FC never give credit to Logistic people, the problem is your Community, not CCP balance.
Once again, an article about you bitching.
This article is total bullshit anyway. First of all t1 logistics is less than half as good as t2. Secondly all serious lo sec alliances brought logistics long before the 4th for any roam that had more than 5 people, only scrubs didn't recognize the value of logistics. Finally, easier logistics makes fights last longer which allows more tactics.
noooo dont nerf .. to the contrary .. when a Dust noob enters EVE ONLINE, he wants to dominate and be mighty, hence we dont need t1 ship nerf we need carriers for the beginners, lower the requiries every noob shall fly a carrier ccp you on the right road to turn eve online into a meaningless shootergame for little kiddos
dont mention this to loud, ccp is crazy enough to find this a good idea