This is another popular instalment of Poetic Talks About Something He Knows Very Little About. These instalments always lead to the very best comments that never see the light of day. Stop calling me a c*nt.
During the New Eden Open, CCP Soundwave riffed about perhaps wanting even more capital ships, playing more distinct roles in the game. For whatever reason, that pie-in-the-sky comment stuck with me.
Granted, I know very little about capitals. I’m nowhere near flying one (I can barely fly battleships), and not sure if I have any real interest in ever flying caps. But the idea, perhaps, has some merit, if a specific role can be found for capitals, one so compelling that people bring them out regularly and consistently. They fight. They die. Perhaps this is tied into a POS revamp.
The role I’m seeing for capitals is in bringing down structures, taking system sovereignty. I’m not sure what all is involved with taking a system, other than that it apparently involves a lot of boring structure shooting. Some variety of structures need to be destroyed, and then replaced with new structures owned by the new alliance. That’s about the extent of my knowledge.
Let’s say the new role for capital ships is in taking down these structures. I already know that’s done, but perhaps the role needs to be magnified ten-fold. Take some structure, if it’s attacked by subcaps only, it can be destroyed in eight hours. That’s a really long time, and nobody would enjoy being involved in a structure shoot that damned long. Now, if capitals are involved, because they can do so much more damage, let’s say that same structure can be taken down in 1.5 hours. The value of caps in those instances becomes much more valuable and desired.
So, there’s the role defined. Capital ships basically become essential in sovereignty-based nullsec operations.
The amount of damage per second a structure can take is capped at some value. It’s a logarithmic scale. Even if you had 200 battleships, it wouldn’t approach the damage output of 10 titans, for instance. Two hundred battleships, the structure pops in eights hours. Ten titans, the structure pops in 1.5 hours. But bringing 11 titans doesn’t allow you to bring the structure down any faster than having brought 10 titans.
Now the damage of caps has to be scaled appropriately, so that they do far more damage, an obscene amount more damage than any subcap.
But now you’re thinking, capitals are just going to blap the hell out of subcap fleets.
Here’s the kicker. As long as a subcap is moving, a capital ship can do nowhere near its maximum damage potential against a subcapital ship. Come up with any reason you want. Resolution. Tracking. Whatever. Doesn’t matter. A titan can’t hit a frigate or destroyer at all. And it does cruiser level damage against a moving battleship. That might sound a tad ridiculous, but CCP’s intention when creating capital ships was likely that they’d do battle with each other, not that they’d be dropped willy-nilly on cruiser gangs. (Pandemic Legion will, of course, hate this idea. They’ve made a life out of dropping capitals on subcaps.)
Capital ships would do their full (adjusted for movement, distance, resolution, etc.) damage against other capitals. Thus caps have an obscene amount of EHP compared to subcaps. So, while a capital ship can’t do much damage to a subcap, a subcap (or fleet of them) won’t do a whole helluva lot to a capital (eventually it could be taken down, but only after a long while.)
By the same token, capital ships can’t effectively provide logisitics (shield/armor remote repping) to subcaps. And subcaps can’t provide meaningful remote repping to caps. The same applies to ewar.
Since capital ships are now a beast unto their own, it’s now appropriate to start building out entire classes of capitals. Ewar capitals (perhaps carriers are repurposed into ewar ships, they’re the faster more agile of the capital ship classes). Logistics focused caps (supercarriers already sort of play this role.) DPS focused caps (which already exist as titans.) There’s no longer just titans and carriers, but more focused variations with specific factional roles. Perhaps you can have capital-sized titans, the cruisers of capital ships. Whereas the current supercapital titans are the battleships of capitals. The door is wide-open to a whole lot of design ingenuity.
On any field of battle where sovereignty is being contested, you now have two battles raging, one between capital ships. And another between sub-capital ships. There is very little (if any) cross-over between the two. Perhaps structures have two EHP values, a portion that can only be affected by subcaps, and a portion that can only be affected by capital ships, thus a reason to bring out fleets of subcaps and capitals to a fight.
Perhaps the cost of manufacturing capitals should be reduced by 50%. That will lead to more proliferation, but if they’re entering the field of battle more often, then they’re getting blapped more often. Perhaps they need to be securely anchored to alliance POSes (part of the POS revamp?), such that people need not fear their theft, and allowing a single character to own different capitals, so they can leave a ship, worry-free, and then board another ship appropriate to a current conflict in whatever role they’re needed.
An idea worthy of discussion between the players and CCP? Like I said, I’m no expert on any of this. Just an idea that has been floating about ever since Soundwave made that comment during the New Eden Open broadcast. This could be the worst idea ever. Or it might have some merit. I dunno. You decide.
Anyhow, I’d like to read the discussion. As long as you don’t call me a c*nt.
You can read more of Poetic Stanziel’s opinions at his Poetic Discourse blog.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again.. Put a bunch of high slots on Titans that can be used by other players like POS gunners. A Titan with 1 pilot and no gunners, dead meat. One with a full array of gunners is as dangerous as an old tracking titan. This would make Supers much more fun for everyone.
Um, yeah. This is pretty much how it is already. The problem is if you're a small alliance (not naming any names or anything) and you drop caps, that sends a big-ass "please hotdrop me" beacon to any of the big alliances within reach. So basically you can't use caps at all unless you're sure the other guy has less than you, or unless you didn't want those caps anyway.
Or ur RA and dont seem to care how manu u lose
Didn't want those titans anyway
just no
also what structure takes 8 hour too kill because i think you rifter army is shooting the wrong thing
stop…talking…now. Convo someone in a 00 sov holding alliance and educate yourself before posting and admitting you're ignorant of everything.
Supercarrier groups already eat sov structures like rice cakes. Dreadnoughts have the ability to do this too and much cheaper…but they are stuck on field while in siege and no don't ever use a titan unless you're…wait no don't ever use a titan to bash sov structures. So you already have 2 classes of caps capable of shooting sov structures.
Interesting ships would be true motherships…sort of like a ship that could let you dock say 200 people inside and the whole thing jumps to a cyno (say in a 5LY range) and re-anchors and you have station services, but it is piloted and has some offense and defense. A few factory slots and maybe a cloning and repair service…or when you build it you choose from a few limited options for a secondary function set. Move an entire fleet "safely" with all of their assets corp and personal.
Yes the cost would have to be somewhere near 500 billion isk…perhaps in the trillion isk range. That isn't out of the cost for a sov holding alliance, and one would assume that it would take at least twice as long to build as a titan in a CSAA. But it would be a new role and it would provide new end-game content for bitter-vet super pilots.
There are other roles to be considered including T2 capital ships. Imagine a dreadnought with T2 resist profiles, EHP buff and damage increases? 40K dpsing moros here we come!
By the way the mothership idea would be great if stations became destructible.
Black Ops Dreadnought.
i like that idea
I like the idea of more caps, because… let's face it, I love caps… but this is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, the problem is not the number of caps available or even really the limited roll, it is as "The other IRC grunt" pointed out, there is no way to control the population of caps on the field, I hate the idea of it but if cynos had a spin up time, and there was a ship like a Hictor that could somehow block the cyno's signal, that would help, and allow a sub-cap focused alliance to keep a large alliance off the field, or block a TB.
Cynojamming T2 dreadnought ftw!
They're called 'DREADNOUGHTS' afaik….
Problem is, no one wants to commit 16-20 dreads to take down a structure in 30 minutes when you know the possibility of getting dropped by a superior number of subcaps (which rape dreads right in the exhaust port) is extremely high. You have roaming bands of randoms that live in NPC space that would love to get a few dread KMs on their board for minimal losses.
And I suggest that subcaps would do little to capital ships, except in exceptionally large numbers and over a lengthy period of time.
My suggestion is that if someone wants to fight caps, they have to being caps. If someone wants to fight subcaps, bring subcaps.
That just brings up a point about rich alliances doing whatever they want. Not sure if you noticed, but caps are friggin expensive (about 400 mil more than a T2 fitted tengu).If this is the way to go, then CCP would have to introduce a new ship or alter riles on an existing subcap as a cap killer much like how a stealth bomber is a battleship killer.
And before you start ripping the SB, two can easily take out a battleship. Bomb drones, long point, watch as they spout tears in the forums about how they are op.
well the main problam is the hotdrop its self and not the ships… i think that only cov-op ships (recon/black op includ) should be able to use any form of the titan bridge. since this ships are not havely tanked and need alot of skill to use it will not happen alot. big fleets should use gates and not a titan tube station, thats not the perpose of a titan.
Have you got any idea how much tidi that would create? Undocking 200 ships from a station makes the game nigh-on unplayable for about a minte let alone warping to a gate, waiting for it to let you jump then loading grid again. Moving a fleet 3 or 4 jumps would take between 20-40 minutes.__What is the purpose of a titan that everybody keeps talking about? a T2 Siege dreadnought can compete with a maxed titan pilot for dps and its a heck of a lot cheaper. Rorqual's can install clone bay facilities which allows anybody to jump to them from anywhere in the game (yeah can't hold as many clones but beats the price).__Any carrier/super can supply a fitting service to ships around it.__Every capital besides dreads have a corp hangar and maintenance bay (cheaper)__Titans can bridge upward of 200+ battleships onto a field it has never seen before. This is the only purpose of a titan, now you also want that removed…so what is it in the end? a carrier that can't use drones, can't rep for shit? a giant dread that can't beat a dreads dps? a rorqual that can't use capital tractor beams? an orca that can't boost? a giant hunk of metal that can't do jack shit? pretty much_
Do us a favor; if you're not qualified to talk about capitals, don't talk about capitals.
Capitals are already pretty versatile. Sentry Carriers can fight subcaps, tracking dreads can blap bships, all can rep stuff, etc. While new capitals would be fun, you have to be very careful in introducing a new capital concept/specialization to prevent EVE from once again becoming "Supercap Online".
One should talk to Soundwave … because he apparently wants more of them.
Soundwave is a moron, Fozzie ftw!
Fozzie has no say in the matter. If Soundwave tells Fozzie to make some new caps, with specific roles, then that is what Fozzie is going to do. He'll likely do his best to create balance, but he can't very well tell Soundwave to "go suck it!"
i think it would be fun to have more caps.
it would add content and give vets something to look forward too.
Ummm except for EWAR caps that's how it is now…please, it would have taken about 30 minutes to find that out. If guy want us to think well of your articles, them make them good.
cunt
Even I'll give you a thumbs up!
shut up poetic
This is pretty much the worst article I have read about capitals ever. I do appreciate the writers enthusiasm but if he (m/f) would have spent as much time reading up on capitals as he (m/f) spent typing, this would not have been typed.
I tried following the thread of this topic until it became more convoluted than a Silent Hill game.
Also, installment*, you and your silly British spellings.
"so i dont know anything about capitals, or anything about sov, but I think they new capitals should help take sov"
stopped reading after second paragraph.
Same
same.
I just wish he'd stopped writing after the second paragraph.
More carriers & dreadnoughts, ok thats great. However, with the number of supers and titans in the game it simply wont happen. Period. Ever.
If what Soundwave meant was he wants more supercarriers and titans, hes a retard and should be fired, the reason supers are broken is BECAUSE of their proliferation, PL dropped over 100 supercarriers PLUS titans on 12 -A- supers in that fight with HBC a few months ago
All it takes is ONE supercarrier, to kill a fleet of 10 dreadnoughts, assuming the dreads are fit with short range weapons (read: fit well) and the super is dropped somewhere between 100-180 (Read: out of dread range but in its own drone range.) because the dreads are stuck for up to 5 minutes, and can't tank a super.
Plus all it takes is one titan = one insta-popped carrier/dread.
There simply WON'T be more carriers/dreads with the supercapital situation the way it is, and adding more supers would be flat out retarded,, they are broken only because of their proliferation.
All your argument does is say that "supercaps are unbalanced". ( and blub blub they had more than us ).
Supercaps are here to stay – and their numbers will keep growing. So why shouldnt we have a bigger range of capital ships? Is there a place for variations on carriers, different hulls, different fitting options on titans, new clases of capitals, deathstars. New capitals dont have to be more powerfull, they can easily be more versatile.
Everobody knows caps are unbalanced, you wont get any argument about that from anyone. Fozzie has done an excellent job on balancing T1. He's allready said that EVERY ship will be rebalanced and that includes eery supercap in the game. When that process is completed why the hell should we not have more capital options ???
(WTF, agreeing with a Syanziel Post. I think I'll shoot myself now)
"Supercaps are here to stay – and their numbers will keep growing."
This is wrong. The proliferation can be stopped pretty easily. Just need to introduce sizeable maintanance cost, and their production will cease fast. You cant have a supercap "just in case", if it takes billions to upkeep.
there is some very bad ideas in your article…limiting caps to rep subcaps,bad , 11 titans do no more damage than 10,bad. Already the fact that supers can't fit regular drones is ridiculous , why does this ship with a huge drone bay and massive bandwidth not have the abilty to use small drones? Oh right "just because" I know we are playing a fantasy game here, but applying rules to stuff with no sense of logic makes a bad game
"there is some very bad ideas in your article…limiting caps to rep subcaps,bad"
There is some very bad reading comprehension in your comment. I said limit caps to repping caps, limit subcaps to repping subcaps. Basically, I propose limiting the crossover between the two classes. Caps vs. caps. And subcaps vs. subcaps.
If you built a ship to rep your fleet in battle, would you make it so it can't rep the majority of your fleet?
I agree. The horse can only move two cells forward and one cell sideward in chess. It doesnt make sense and should be fixed in future patch.
The issue is this Stanz… Caps are everywhere, price doesn't matter and materials don't matter. With your idea, only caps would be relevant in 0.0 and that is death to the sandbox. I have lived in HS, LS, WH's and null (null for the last year) and only ever flown a BS. I like BS's they can fill many unique rolls, for the odd fleet that my BS fits are just one more nobody, I have a logi. Now if what you said took place, only Caps would fight and I would be relegated to my endless mining and ratting because the prerequisite would be a mandatory capital ship. In order to remain in 0.0 I would HAVE to become a cap pilot and that means no more sandbox for me.
To keep subcaps on the field, I threw out a suggestion that all structures have two damage components. One that is more readily damaged by caps, and one that can only be damaged by subcaps. Thus caps are important and must be brought onto the field, but subcaps are still vital and play a role.
I'll try to say this succinctly – The thing here is that these ideas start treading heavily into the scripted realm, where you /have/ to use a prescribed fleet comp to a specific task. Using RFC notation here, saying that one MUST use subcaps AND capitals to accomplish a specific scenario breaks away from the open-endedness of Eve.
I myself like killing carriers and dreadnaughts using nothing but subcaps, and preferably fewer than 10 of them. It's a challenge that myself and the rest of my team share, so that's what we've set out to do. Sure, we could drop 2 dreads or even a super on some poor carrier we caught using a bad cyno… but that would be hitting the easy button.
Ummmm caps are actually fairly common in Sov fights, especially when it comes to important staging systems. As well as caps can tear through SOV structures a lot faster then 1.5 hours in fact a handful of supers can plow through in minutes, and i've never been in a structure bash that took 8 fucking hours. Even ones using nothing but SB's and if CCP forced non cap fleets into an 8 hour min structure bash. and even cap fleets at 1.5hours Everyone would quit Sov war.
I mean seriously, you admitted to knowing nothing about caps, and sov and then you start making suggestions to change them completely around. If you dont fly it or dont participate in an activity, don't make suggestions on it. Leave it to the people that do it everyday to figure out whats wrong and whats needed
It was to spur some discussion. See what people think, learn more about caps. I could ask one person about caps … or I could write a post and, in essence, ask 50 people.
I've learned a fair bit about them through this post.
the only problem with caps and supercaps is nobody wishes to field them except pl so they stay ingame i large numbers.
Your article is bad and you should feel bad
Tbh caps as they are now are fairly balanced, perhaps more roles could be added, but the problem with capital warfare today is The Batphone, where unless you are CFC/HBC, you cannot commit a decent amount of capitals to the field for :long: periods of time before somebody on either side batphones a larger entity turning an otherwise gf into a laughably 1-sided KM farm. Even lowsec groups like RnK, FATE, DnD, Shadow Cartel who regularly use capitals in their fights start getting worried if their fights start lasting too long for fear of counter-drop by PL. This is a problem with the eve community, not game design however.
No; go back to the kitchen.
tech 3 carrier ftw
And that should change. 150 nagas should kill a carrier in 2 hours. And the carrier would have trouble killing the Nagas.
Want to fight subcaps, bring subcaps. Want to fight a cap, bring a capital ship.
that has to be the single most retarded thing i have read on this website in a long time.
If new ships are to be added they need to be between battleship and carrier / dread size. you could add an entire new tier of ship to fulfill the role. As with the other tiers you could have a logi, dps and ewar role for them.
the main issue with all of this is the fact that capitals have issues killing small stuff. this problem has been around for a long time, capitals should be able to kill subcaps effectively, supers should get their drones back.
the next thing is missiles, capital missiles are hit in comparison to guns when shooting subcaps, even if you have 5/6 webs and target painters on a target citadel torps still wont hit for much, if you did that and shot it with a moros the subcap would disppear in a ball of glorious fire.
There is a lot broken at the moment…
i have to ask, do you actually play his game?
WOW
Stop posting this stuff. I deleted the evenews bookmark because of this crap (i got linked this)
Caps are nerfed enough harden up u fkn noobs.
Pooetic instal EFT
Are you sure you are not mint chip? You both have no clue what you are talking about and you demand constant attention. There is already a game for that and I think you would love it. This brand new game is called facebook. You get a high score when a lot of pointless people pay attention to your pointless comments. Please stop wasting our time, I could have made a sandwich or feed my dog, but now I have to wonder about what childhood trauma you went through that would cause you do openly admit that you know nothing of something and then talk about it. Let me tell you why I really don't like the Kenyan president. I don't know his name, but I know Kenya is in Africa and that should be enough to form an opinion on their entire political system at the moment and then tell everyone. Why don't you write a blog explaining to me why I keep clicking your articles on EN24. Maybe Riverini could colour them in a brownish colour so that I know i'm about to read crap.
I have nothing against Mwai Kibaki as a side note, but I had to pick on a random nation and Kenya won.
lol, gold
"Even if you had 200 battleships, it wouldn’t approach the damage output of 10 titans, for instance. Two hundred battleships, the structure pops in eights hours. Ten titans, the structure pops in 1.5 hours."
lol, 200 abaddons = 172k DPS. 200 maels = 153k dps. 10 BLAP fit avatars = 110k dps with full officer fit and implants. Next time do some simple math before you post stupid shit.
Under the current system. You are correct.
I'm talking about a proposed system.
Whatever your new cap is that's designed to shoot structures, it'll instantly tread on the already highly-niched dreads. I'd also wager that an Ewar cap in wormhole space would be a pain in the arse
Man, I wish I had a capital so I could just dismiss what anyone says about them EVERY time they are discussed.
From what I can tell it never get's old doing that.
Are you sure you are not mint chip? You both have no clue what you are talking about and you demand constant attention. There is already a game for that and I think you would love it. This brand new game is called facebook. You get a high score when a lot of pointless people pay attention to your pointless comments. Please stop wasting our time, I could have made a sandwich or feed my dog, but now I have to wonder about what childhood trauma you went through that would cause you do openly admit that you know nothing of something and then talk about it. Let me tell you why I really don't like the Kenyan president. I don't know his name, but I know Kenya is in Africa and that should be enough to form an opinion on their entire political system at the moment and then tell everyone. Why don't you write a blog explaining to me why I keep clicking your articles on EN24. Maybe Riverini could colour them in a brownish colour so that I know i'm about to read crap.
def no specialized logi caps trololol
poetic go get fired from eve news you hack and go back to wow