Poetic Discourse: Kill Rights – A Kinder, Gentler Highsec
The march towards a kinder gentler highsec continues today with the full explanation of kill rights, one of the new features for the Retribution expansion, by CCP.
Transferrable Kill Rights
The only useful thing coming out of the kill rights section of the devblog is that kill rights will now be transferable This has been a long time coming.
Except that they’re not really transferable. Rather, you can purchase the ability to activate a kill right for 15 minutes. This ability can be now purchased in space, with a right click, when you’re on top of your target. If you happen to kill the target, the kill right expires immediately.
There’s a big but coming, though. We all like big buts, right?
Highsec Gangbang
Kill rights are really gangbang rights. The one-on-one affair that kill rights used to be. No more. Activating a kill right means that anyone can attack and kill, without consequence. Activating a kill right is to apply the suspect flag onto that person.
The Punishment and The Crime
The punishment needn’t fit the crime. Unlike the current system, where you actually have to blow something up for a victim to get a kill right, under the new system, simply aggressing a non-outlaw, non-suspect in highsec will give the “victim” a kill right.
Failed ganks are to punished, according to the new mechanics. Let’s say you fail on a highsec gank. CONCORD kills you and you lose your ship (not too mention getting ridiculed in local for being fail.) CCP says that’s not quite punishment enough, and will give the surviving victim the right to kill you anywhere anytime for the next month. But that’s not punishment enough either, since a kill right is actually a license to gangbang. You’ll also get a special icon (shaped like a target) that tells everyone that you can be killed anywhere anytime, and with a simple right click (and maybe payment of some ISK) the kill right on you can be activated.
Alts Voiding Kill Rights
Undock in a shuttle. An alt activates the kill right. Blows up shuttle. Kill right completed.
CCP will fix this cleverness quickly, since it voids the entire kill right system on zero day.
Kill Right Baiting
We can expect to see this nerfed in the future.
Load a blingy-ship up with warp stabs. Wait for someone to buy the kill right off your alt. Warp to station. Wait out the fifteen minute timer. Watch them curse. Earn ISK. Rinse and repeat for the rest of the month.
We’ll see this done with blingy PvP fit ships and nearby logis, as well. I’m sure lots of different tactics to kill right bait will appear over time.
This is all perfectly, fine, but it will upset carebears, and CCP will respond. Carebears are naturally quite stupid, and CCP has determined it is their job to protect them.
Freighter Ganking
Goonswarm will deny that it will have any effect on their activities, and probably most times they’ll be right. Every freighter ganker will have kill rights on them. All the Uedama and Niarja white knighters will be able to utilize those rights at anytime, with no threat to their own security.
Goonswarm relies on high alpha ships and 0.5 CONCORD response to get multiple volleys off on freighters before the space police turn their ships to dust. The white knighters can just hang with the vulnerable freighter, and when the evil gankers swoop in, start alpha-ing the alpha-ers. If the gank ships can be killed before CONCORD arrives, then the gank becomes harder, if not outright impossible.
It’s not like Goonswarm can fight back against the white knighters. White knights attacking folks with suspect flags, doesn’t in turn make the white knight a suspect. If White Knight 1, 2 and 3 attacks Ganker A, Ganker B, C, D, E, and F don’t get to assist Ganker A by attacking White Knights 1, 2, or 3.
Goonswarm’s new profession doesn’t become impossible, but it becomes a lot more difficult. If Goonswarm continues to remain profitable, then expect more nerfs in 2013. Perhaps turning Uedama into a 0.7 system or buffing freighter EHP. This will likely be the next line of attack by CCP in making highsec a land of safety and risk-free reward.
Boiling a Frog
As I wrote previously, this is another step towards sunshine and rainbows in highsec. Kill rights, rather than encouraging PvP in highsec, will effectively reduce it over the long haul. There’ll still be those people who don’t give a shit about the mechanics, but there’ll be more people who will give up their highsec criminality, because being gangbanged at any time and any place is not desirable.
CCP still gets to say that they have mechanics that allow highsec PvP. Wardecs. Bounties. Kill rights. But those systems also actively discourage highsec PvP, through mechanics that weigh far more in favour of the victims than the aggressors.
CSM7
Kudos to CSM7 for failing to recognize CCP’s new philosophy for highsec development. For not speaking up. For rolling over and taking it. Nary a criticism from these clowns. Why? Because they fear loss of access to CCP devs. Access to development gives them a sense of power. Chatting up a celebrity dev nou doubt gives on a warm special feeling inside. Access alone is power, they’ll tell us. But it’s a false power, because they’ve nothing to back it up.
CCP tells the CSM that they plan to offer transferable kill rights. Someone on the CSM yells “Ship it now!” No questions asked. Just cheerleading.
The only the power the CSM can wield is that of public opinion. If the CSM cannot get the support of the playerbase behind them, they’ve zero leverage against CCP. It’ll just be a few dudes, who think they’re special, banging their head against a wall.
Better to be buddies with the devs while the game slowly gets fucked over, than to not be buddies. At least the CSM is making new friends. Extra Christmas cards in December.
You can read more of Poetic Stanziel’s opinions at his Poetic Discourse Blog.
+1 welcome to hello kitty online
Nothing will change. People will adapt to the mechanic, but they will not change who they are and how they behave. Don't worry.
Woah there cowboy. They're increasing the severity of engaging in high sec ganking, and high sec is meant to be "safer" than the rest of space. Note that I said "Safer", not "Safe". Freighter ganking will still be popular, though it will be harder – as it should be! Can Freighter ganking still be a profitable endeavour under this new system? Yes it can, but the days of multiple multi-billion isk freighter kills earning gankers are fortune for 0 risk are over. Yes – I said 0 risk. Losing their ship to Concord was a known part of the equation, making a huge profit a veritable certainty. I'm personally looking forward to Ganker Tears in local, considering coming down from null for the first week or two just to pop the buggers flat out
Actually will one be able to place a bounty on any freighter pilot for no reason at all. And since freighters are expensive ships can one make ganks extra juicy if one does not like the competition.
Scan freighters and put a bounty on everyone with Technetium in them. Make it a 100M ISK per freighter and onto 200 freighter pilots, thus adding up to 20B ISK in total.
You will have the cost for this back within a month of moon goo or so. Eventually will these bounties cause a pressure on the pilots and on the Technetium price itself. It does not even need ganks, but the sum alone will make them stay docked more often.
Goonswarm will likely put bounties onto freighter pilots only for the sake to tag them and to pay their own gankers a wage. Afterall, a freighter gank can pay out several billions in profit. What are 100M-200M ISK bounties there? Little to nothing.
You can't put a bounty on someone with positive sec status.
Yes, you can. No more limits. Read the forums.
"Bounties have no effect on who can be attacked legally where."
Also, 100m is not nearly enough to kill a freighter!!
No one but CCP talks about "legally". As if it mattered what CONCORD allows and what not. It is CCP in all their glorious stupidity. Players will keep playing EVE the way they want it. You still have carebears, griefers, gankers, grunts, FCs, botters, NRDS, NBSI, etc. all in the game.
Also haulers don't get ganked for bounties. They get ganked for their cargo. When you put a bounty onto a hauler will it be paid out each time the ship gets ganked.
A freighter costs ~1.5B ISK. To gank it does it cost ~500M ISK in ships. Once the pilot's bounty reaches ~2.5B ISK will it pay the gankers' expenses for 5 ganks in a row and the pilot can give up hauling, because he will need 5 new freighters worth 7.5B ISK, not counting the loss of cargo.
This works for any type of ship class from freighters down to the little Itties. Any trader, who owns billions, can cripple his competition. And I am sure many will.
It will only need small bounties, because they keep adding up over time. All them hauler alts who never see a fight will carry large bounties eventually.
Do the math.
Bounties won't payout in full. You only get a small percentage of the ship loss, expected to be 20percent
Im sure the gankers will find a new way to harras high sec dwellers.
The gankers could always leave high sec and look for a fight there.
but that would mean people could actually Shoot back at them…….or even worse, they could LOSE the fight.
I agree tho, gankers and deccers need to learn that high sec is just that, HIGH SECURITY space, aka the non PvP zones or servers in other games. Low sec and Null sec is where PvP is always in the back of your mind in every activity you do out there. If high sec became a PvP free zone, that would be fine, but at the same time, remove level 3 and 4 missions (at least level 4's) from high sec and move them to low sec systems. This would be inline with the risk vs reward that makes EvE what it is. This would mean high sec would be a place for noobs to learn about the game in a save environment. Would also allow them to learn that if they want to make more isk, they will need to risk there ship.
Lowsec already has level 5s dear
And isk fountain faction warfare
Your "big butts" comment is dumb. Not everyone is a guy or just a black guy.
"The punishment needn’t fit the crime." Another dumb comment.
"Carebears are naturally quite stupid," another one.
TL;DR: Fritz expects a new world order. Hates all but the Jews.
Sorry guys I had a gay fit, I'm just jealous those booties get more attention then me
I luv balls
Ladies and gentlemen, the great John Douche.
Wow, Poetic has turned into a real douche.
These new kill right changes simply add the missing element of risk to the heretofore riskless activity of ganking. No, for the millionth time, losing your ship to Concord/losing sec status is not risk.
Alliances being able to bounty others = payment for killing.
I love this one as it may even re-start the roams. A good roam may net a decent profit just off the bounties.
As for transferable kill-rights and gangbang -> you are expecting a fair fight. There is no reason a criminal punishment scheme should offer a fair fight. A cop will draw on you if you've taken a can of coke and are caught later on and try to flee.
So in fact you are expecting coddling instead of assuming responsibility. You're the criminal, you take the rap. Use every tool at your disposal to circumvent it, of course.
I'd rather have it this way, it allows entrepreneurs to flourish. For example I can make a "lose kill right" company. Crims go out on a destroyer (soon as they nerf shuttles) and my representative blows them up. No relation, no alt, no worry. Its good and legal.
it's only fair that the freighter gankers get a slightly harder job dodging shared kill rights. they're only attacking defenceless ships anyway. risk vs reward in that is skewed currently.
I'm always hearing how CCp wants people to "GOTO NULL DAMMIT!". If this is true, making highsec less pvp capable makes sense, because a person who really wants to have "gudfites" they can simply goto null, the HUGE track of space where anybody can kill anybody Killrights Not Included™.
So all the griefers in high sec can bitch and moan, because they might not be able to kill a fucking frieghter in high
Also, not to disparage my fellow miners an traders too much, most of them will be far too out of the loop and outright apathetic to even know about, or understand, any of this. I'm betting most ganks end with the gankee not even knowing they could put killrights out
this is not making high sec LESS pvp capable. it's making it MORE pvp capable. it's only going to be LESS if the gankers aren't as tough as they think and shy away from the pvp because others can suddenly fight them.
if i understand the article right its the gankers QQing over the ability of others ganking them when they don't want to PVP… so what…. they do it to others now others are going to do it to them… sounds awesome 2 me
Gankers can still fight back against their attackers, even after suspect flagged, after they start getting shot at. The crimewatch dev blog prior to this one talks about limited engagements between the suspect and their aggressor.
Finally, what's to stop an organized gank team from executing the log in trap:
Sit on the gate with an alt, wait for freighter
Bump your victim, but don't participate in the gank
Log in your gank team, kill the freighter, collect the loot with an alt
bounce between safes until you can log back out.
regroup at the gate, log out, repeat.
You can't flag someone for suspect when they aren't online. All they have to do is hide until they are in the clear, and then log back out and wait to spring the trap again.
no you can't. IF you are suspected flagged with the killright anyone in the area can shoot you and you could shoot them but you can't have friends to help you out. Basically you will get gang banged. SO its not a 1v1 anymore its you vs a blob.
Did you forget Concord?
considering that many killing in high (outside of wardecs) are just griefers, and most of them are not expecting a fight. so it will be interesting to see if it calms high or turns into a warzone
"I'm always hearing how CCp wants people to "GOTO NULL DAMMIT!".
Its not CCP that says this its the HI pitched whines of NULL wolves that want EZ sheep tokill in NULL like there are in HI SEC. Problem is you CANNOT MOVE MOST OF THEM they will end up quitting the game
Op is totally correct. High sec will soon become an unsafe gangbang area, that is too safe. Suicide gankers need more protections in highsec. The last thing we need is more ways to shoot people in highsec. That will only lead to a gangbang filled safe area, filled with danger.
High sec has been totally ridiculous place. It's finally becoming true high sec rather than "place where someone dies if they attack and that's it".
I have been avoiding high sec as much as I can since I started doing pvp in 2009. I feel much safer in low sec or 0.0 than high sec. To me high sec is that boring place which you need to cross to get Jita or other side of EVE and you need to do the flying manually if you are flying something else than T2 fitted battlecruiser or battleship. Otherwise some idiot might gank you even when they have no chance of getting any profit out of it. Believed or not, but I have been ganked and failganked couple times when flying with autopilot through high with zero value ship/mod/cargo. Okay, those occasions have been actually pretty fun, but still it feels retarded.
PS. You go jail if you try to kill someone in real world, so why it shouldn't be punished in EVE? Yes, your ship already blows up if you shoot, but when you are doing suicide ganking, it's not punishment, it's just cost. Stores and banks would be robbed continuously if you would only get fine robbing them.
Sorry but I love the changes. If you want to play ganker and then return to the safety of high sec it now comes with a higher price tag. Actions reactions and so on. Why should you be safe from a corp coming to the aid of a person you and your mates ganked? No Revenge, a dish best enjoyed with friends.
Eve Online: Where being an asshole now gets you fucked.
Poor, carebear crying.
Quote
"There’ll still be those people who don’t give a shit about the mechanics, but there’ll be more people who will give up their highsec criminality, because being gangbanged at any time and any place is not desirable."
End quote
This is the best carebear statament I've ever seen. l love you, carebear.
i second this statement
Listen to the Ganker cry…. You will find a way around it, don't be such a wuss. This is a perfectly logical revamp to the Hi-sec PVP mechanics. Ganking isn't supposed to be easy, it isn't supposed to "be" at all if you think about it, the mechanics allow it but the spirit of the game has always tended to being against gankers/griefers. All is not lost, and there will be loopholes, just think it thru and don't advertise them on EN24!
Uh. What? No, the spirit of the game has _always_ been that EVE exists in a dark, grim universe, filled with danger and nasty people. High sec ganks have always been part of that vision. You are never safe, anywhere in EVE. That is intended, and if CCP think they can change that, and keep their existing subscriber base… well, I think they're wrong. But time will tell, I guess.
You're right, Eve is and has always been about dangerous and grim places. Its actually getting darker because while you're still freely able to kill freighters as before. The freighter pilot is now free to come back and kill you without recourse, with extreme unfairness and with as many friends as he likes. That seems dangerous and dark too me.
The changes do nothing more then give a solid base for more things blowing up.
I also enjoy how both Carebears and Gankers are crying over this, or so the comments on this blog seem to say. If thats true, then isn't that the best thing CCP could do? If EVERYONES crying, then the changes have to be balanced. Personally love it. Im even thinking about ratting my sec up so I can go pick up kill rights and legally gank gankers.
ganiking gankers
more fights, carebears get revenge and thus closure, you want a fight check local for kill rights that are availible, if not gank soon ppl will come to you, its great! Cannibal troll system for gankers 
Outrageous! Highsec ganking will have actual consequences now?
I don't think you will get a big problem with alts neutralising kill rights, at the end of the day, if they want to do that, then that is their choice.
Kill rights, only go up for sale if the pilot who owns them puts a price on them, at which point the alt who wants to neutralise it would have to pay the amount the pilot sets anyway, see it as a payment back to the person they originally killed to re-emburse them in that case
Also, a kills a kill, I can't see gankers wanting another loss on their characters, even if it is an alt that's put it there.
Over all I think there Bounty system changes are improvements, but still not quite there yet.
I would just like to point out I don't think this is going to stop hisec ganks at all, except for maybe the vaccination warriors, proper gankers will just adapt their processes to reduce the impact.
"Carebears are naturally quite stupid"
TL;DR
Posting in a not so stealth nerf HI SEC into LO/NULL thread
Let's see here… Freighters now benefit from having escorts, seems pretty sweet. Gankers get the shit beat out of them or a month instead of losing a ship that is BUILT TO LOSE and letting a freaking freighter pilot have the kill rights, not too shabby! Goons, oh precious goons, get a little butt hurt spilled back on them because one of their many shit stiring sticks gets a bit harder to twist… Won't see me losing any sleep.
Everything you have said here sounds wonderful.
Why so serious?
Really interesting article<img src="2.s08.flagcounter.com/count/G4yB/bg=FFFFFF/txt=FFFF22/border=FFFFFF/columns=1/maxflags=1/viewers=Visitors/labels=1/" width="1" height="1" /><img src="2.s08.flagcounter.com/count/hnp/bg=FFFFFF/txt=FFFF22/border=FFFFFF/columns=1/maxflags=1/viewers=Visitors/labels=1/" width="1" height="1" /><img src="2.s08.flagcounter.com/count/sFN/bg=FFFFFF/txt=FFFF22/border=FFFFFF/columns=1/maxflags=1/viewers=Visitors/labels=1/" width="1" height="1" /><img src="rf.revolvermaps.com/h/b/40/582kju0d754.png" width="1" height="1" /><img src="rf.revolvermaps.com/h/b/40/5d2zhaxt0de.png" width="1" height="1" /><img src="2.s10.flagcounter.com/count/VZvk/bg=FFFFFF/txt=FFFF22/border=FFFFFF/columns=1/maxflags=1/viewers=Visitors/labels=1/" width="1" height="1" />
NOT!
Poetic Stanz still the drama queen and csm hater i see , at least see how this works out before bitching at csm and ccp, the patch hasn't actually bin rolled out yet, calm down , maby, just maby you will be wrong and this not an attempt to make high sec safer but to try an improve the game, ITS POSSIBLE
I think many of you are taking this the wrong way. I think this is purely a move directed at trying to improve their revenue stream. New characters pay their subscription fees and buy plex. I am sure there are a lot of people that try the 14 day free trial and never come back. After being ganked a few times, and not understanding why really, they simply turn their attention to something else. Where most eve players would simply smirk at these people and hold the door open for them, i am sure CCP whimpers a little at the lost revenue.
So what i think they are doing is trying to give these players more of a chance to understand the game and pay to play. Making high sec a little safer does not really bother most of the dedicated players, they are all off in low or null anyway. Its usually just people that want to blow something up that can't fight back. I think that it is better that this happens then if you take the thought to it ultimate conclusion and CCP simply bans pvp in .9 or 1.0 space. Concord could always just disable the ability to lock another ship in high sec.
"This is all perfectly, fine, but it will upset carebears, and CCP will respond. Carebears are naturally quite stupid, and CCP has determined it is their job to protect them."
You might think you're a smart guy by writing all these articles. For me you're just another selfish "tunnel vision" dumbass prick who has no respect for other people. You never learned that "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"… Prick
oh boo hoo – are you done having a pity party yet? with every patch that comes out there is always a certain group of players that cry and bitch. well this time it just happens to be highsec gankers. O.M.G. Like they are such a sacred group "we can't dare touch them!'. Please. Get off your high horse, HTFU and figure out another way to pop a freighter in 1.0 for lutz or whatever else gets you off. Maybe it's time gankers know what it feels like to know they are gonna lose their sh*t.
"Kill rights are really gangbang rights"………."Kill rights, rather than encouraging PvP in highsec, will effectively reduce it over the long haul." Pretty conflicting stuff i must say.
The way i look at it, is just with the new war declaration system, CCP wants griefers to actually have consequences for their actions, and force them to actually think about risk vs reward, rather then doing something simply because they can and that there will most likely be no response from the carebear because hes a …….carebear. A ganked carebear now has the ability to send a killright off to his PVP mate. Justice is served pvpers now have another method of making money.
If anything this new system reduces the wankers griefing simply because they can by increasing the aftereffect risk while also promoting legitimate pvpers (excluding exploiters) by giving them an alternate avenue of gameplay and way to make isk.
But at the end of the day if the griefers are as good as they all seem to say they are, then they should look forward to the neverending supply of pvp.
"Activating a kill right means that anyone can attack and kill, without consequence. "
You mean … they might get ganked !? When they arent expecting it ?
So there will be risk and stuff if you wander around hisec as a known criminal !?
I love it, all I hear in this article is him whining that gankers will get ganked, it's priceless.
This all sounds fine to me.
all sounds fine to me. High sec is supposed to be like this. If you want gudfights go to low or null. Low risk isk is the birthright of highsec. Hey, its the LEAST you can do for people who are honestly satisfied flying freight everywhere as their 'game'. I see this 'profession' should be as safe as highsec mining, or ratting. So as everyone is going to 'get a job' to pay for their other alts to pvp anyway, I don't see a problem here.
all i got from this article was "im mad bro".
Your tears are so so sweet, keep em coming. You say that hisec is becoming all reward little risk, but in reality ur upset that ganking is no longer going to be as high of a reward v risk venture. The exact thing you claim is happening with this isn't why ur butt hurt, it's the opposite. Tears, so sweet, so sweet indeed.
And if you are so high on pvp, i have an idea, go to 0.0. Oh wait, you may have to actually face somebody that has weaponry to fire back. Those complaining are hisec cowards, come to 0.0, i'll gladly greet you and send you back free of charge.
It seems pretty simple, Hi Sec space is just that, if you don't want swarm style vengeance against you don't come to Hi Sec and fuck up.
Reminds me of old timey town justice, where there was maybe a Sherriff (CONCORD), but everyone in the town was armed too for direct action against a perp. If you were an outlaw you would probably stay the hell out of that town and go back to the lawless lands. Let the carebears have Hi-sec, the rest of space is open for interpretation.
"The second way is in how the kill right is used. This is changing from previous functionality. If you have a kill right against someone, you can activate that kill right to make your target a suspect (i.e. give him a Suspect Flag, as explained in the crimewatch blog). This allows anyone in the vicinity of the suspect to engage him legally." -CCP SoniClover
You have shit for reading comprehension.
I foresee much hilarity coming to EVE in the future as ignorant gankers and station humpers get suspect flagged and blapped because one of their victims sold the kill rights to someone. Initially there won't be much in the way of participation, simply because of ignorance, but as it catches on there will be a lot of gankers being suspect flagged, and the carnage outside jita 4-4 will just get worse.
yes the change for retribution — positive standings can still be bountied, shifting kill rights (bouty + kill right hmmm) gankers are gonna find high sec to be rougher but they'll also find more good fights now
Gankers aren't typically looking for good fights, they are looking for easy kills