Sugar Kyle from The Humbleless Crew did an extensive summary on the Eve Vegas presentations.
I’m not overly interested in Dust. But, I hope it succeeds and hopefully this is going to be an interesting presentation.
This is supposed to be unheard of stuff before about Dust.
Please keep in mind these are mere “summaries” and “notes” of the presentations, written in haste and with a very vague sense of specificity on the mentioned subjects.
Eve Vegas – CCP Nothing Presents Dust 514/Eve Economy Integration
He starts off with the fact that Eve Online is one of the most complex economies. He was hired to work with the EVE economies. It will be very tricky to combine the two economies together. But if they design for it they can make it easier for themselves. He is thinking of Dust 514 as a massive EVE feature.
A simple view of DUST 514
Like Eve things are destroyed pertinently and you get rewards. The term is consumption for rewards. High consumption value battles = ISK sinks. They won’t give back all that is consumed in rewards. They will get about 80% back. Low consumption battles = ISK Faucet.
Dust 514 will act as a self sustained economy. Unless you are very good you will have to grind some ISK. There is a cycle but I can’t see the diagram well.
Linking it to Eve
They are expecting Eve to pour ISK into Dust. The way Dust 514 accepts it is by sinking it over time. So Eve giving Dust money will sink ISK from Eve.
This means the total value of the economy can be tuned. When they shift the value up the economy will also shift immediately. They have something in place to correct the average prices earlier. They can easily adjust it against leave.
If the dust prices are to low against eve they fail. If the prices are to low everyone has everything. prices are not a constraint and isk progression ceases to exist. If everyone is rich then no one is rich. If the prices in dust are to high against Eve, it becomes an exclusive game for the rich in Eve. Even worse Dust becomes a lousy investment when the rewards are not worth it and no one plays it.
He displayed a graph about how he uses EVE prices to manage DUST 514 prices.
The meaningfulness perspective.
What is meaningful money for Eve Players? How much does it cost to engage in dust interactions? how much will you make from it over time? Is it worth it?
An exercise in ballparks (this is work in progress numbers)
Lets say it should cost 25billion to take over a planet. Then assume its worth it. A planet is conquered in a bout 300 battles. This puts hjte cost at 83 million per battle. 40% pf that is spent on heavy attack vehicles. Each battle sees around 20 HAVs get destroyed. In this scenario, each Have costs 10mil.
They are currently selling tanks from 130k to 2.4mil and they are looking at the future of that.
Future Plans
A steady NPC supply is difficult to balance optimally. Things will get interesting once they release control of the NPC supply to the hands of the players and allow prices to float freely. While doing so is our goal it is likely to be a gradual process and we’re still working out the details and timelines of it.
Why not let the market run free? The main challenge is that we don’t know how many people will be playing Dust and how stable the player base will be. Guessing this wrong might have pretty fascinating and by fascinating he means serious implications on the existing eve economy. He is worried of tanking EVE’s economy. This ran fast and I have no clue what its about.
Summary of the Player Q&A
Well are not there ways to explain why some things cost more then other things using lore such as the weight of an item for a player who is on the ground. (this question has some role play lore feeling to it). So he thinks prices can be explained by lore. —- Answer is none yet
This person says he is excited about Dust 514 and it will get him playing Eve more. One worry he has is if Dust is going to be only a console game when the next gen of consoles come out are they planning on moving Dust to the next generation console? Answer is “I don’t know how hard it will be to port Dust from PS3 to PS4. But he thinks from a business standpoint it makes sense but don’t take his word cuz he doesn’t know.
Why should they take the planet? The goal is for the reward to take the planet to be worth more then it costs to take the planet so that people want to do it.
How are they going to get stuff to the market from Eve to Dust? They are still working on the polishing of it. No really good answer to this or how it will look.
How is it going to affect Sov War and capturing planets with enemies and Dust interactions? He says he isn’t the one who handles that part of game design. So far they want to make the connection meaningful so that people want to work together and that they can achieve both sides.
ISK from Eve to Dust does it flow back the other way? Yes. ISK can flow from Dust to Eve. (Wll there be meaningful amounts? Enough to grind a plex?) In terms of earnings Dust players will be in a much lighter earning place then Eve. But even if they are really good the higher matches are giving a few million maybe.
Is the NPC seeding the long term plan for Dust? Its a stepping stone. Its how Eve started and with a lot of unknowns its the easiest way.
Social Question: With incarna and Dust and the social aspect… will Dust players and Eve players hang out in station together? CCP Nothing would love that but the time line of it and the features and WHAT THE PLAYERS WANT will take precedent.
Orbital strikes? Will they have shots that go up into space to blow up the ships dropping the strikes? It won’t be free for the dust person. They don’t know what the risk vs reward will be but he thinks it is safe to say that it should be built into the back end.
I have no idea what I just wrote. Just tried to write it all up. 
- Sugar Kyle
Might as well as attach a Sim-City like gameplay while they're at it =P
I would dig that tbh…
Only if they had a dropa-da-panti's bootan.
if dust players will generally make less isk then eve players, perhaps some will see a benefit in trying eve to make more isk for their ground war. sounds good.
"Lets say it should cost 25billion to take over a planet. Then assume its worth it."
"Then assume its worth it." ???
That is the major point if this is going to work or not. What reward can you expect for such an invest for a single planet? Surely not the free choice in what area you want to place your Planetary Interaction thingies.
A lot of this was him tossing out numbers to have something to focus the discussion around (I think). Their plan seemed to be that winning said planet will have a greater end value then it costs to win the planet but the cost to win the planet should also be large because its a planet and it would cost a lot to take it over. But, because it costs so much they want to make sure that the winner of the planet gets their values worth.
That is kinda what I got from that I think. I was typing everything as he said it and just trying to get it all down and keep up so I don't have impressions built into it.
so.. it's just like tech moons
And the power blocks who already own all those will easily be able to afford to take over all the planets too. Awesome…there anything else we can do to give the super-rich in this game a leg up? I know they're struggling so.
No, not like tech moons. Tech moons are rare, but you can find any type of planet in any region including high-sec.
Currently it is all about gates, stations and moons when alliances want to take space. In the future will alliances have to bring the fight to planets, too, when they want to take space with all available resource in it.
Well at this rate no one is getting shit from DUST. PI is not worth it, they better pull something amazing out of their asses to get eve online players interested because PI SIMPLY DOESN:T DO IT.
Only usefull contribution was -A- BUSA CEO talking about internal organization of alliance… all the rest is bullshit sprinkled with shittanis usually boring and uninventive goon retardnes.
Is proof reading too hard or time consuming . It was also light on details. It's not a good idea to try to write down every word that is said when taking notes, this is why you have very little understanding of what the points were.
Good luck next time
This was an interesting article.
I like that last part. I would like to see DUST mercs and EVE pilots walking on stations together.
Lets say it does cost 25b to take a planet. My corp was making 500m a week building robotics, at that rate, considering we used 4-5 planets, it would take 5 YEARS to make it worth taking over the planets.
CCP better have something really fancy planned for PI… Otherwise PI materials (Read: POS Fuel materials) will skyrocket in costs as people try to recoup their losses in taking a planet.
This is a valid argument and needs to be taken into consideration.<img src="s01.flagcounter.com/count/7uR/bg=FFFFFF/txt=FFFFFF/border=FFFFFF/columns=1/maxflags=1/viewers=3/labels=0/" alt="." width="1" border="0" /><img src="s01.flagcounter.com/count/H9Y2/bg=FFFFFF/txt=FFFFFF/border=FFFFFF/columns=1/maxflags=1/viewers=3/labels=0/" alt="." width="1" border="0" />
it will never be able to really skyrocket too much, because it's been stated numerous times that Dust will have NO involvement in high sec and WH. Which means if you have to own a planet in order to do PI on it, and everyone is always squabbling over null planets, high sec will be the place to do pi again. High taxes or not. I for one make alot of pi, and my greedy nature looks forward to increase prices… mwahahahaa
Except that soundwave wants highsec customs offices in player's hands as well…
The overall theme seems to be that they want people to suffer somehow and someway. Whether it's cutting profits, increasing taxes, or just having ships explode…
Try'd to log onto dust 514 server, 2many connections…… this must be hellowagame indeed.
And this comes out not 2 days after I wrote the article on TM.com about the exact same thing.
:smug:
Dust players= CoD brats….Grats CCP for fucking eve up even more you tards.
go take a nap.
MAke the tanks affordable. but put up extreamly expensive skins for tanks and drop suits. that way normal players will have competative gear. but eve players will have something to use their large amounts of cash on.
Part of the problem is that the currency and production in these to worlds are based on different standards. The cost of owning and operating a battleship in space should be many times more expensive then buying a tracked vehicle and shooting tiny lasers at people on the ground. The Eve economy is designed around supporting people buying spaceships and the PI and all these things have fallen into place and been tweeked to support that.
Lets say the monthly tax profit off a lava planet in Eve is 20m (hypothetically). This is part of the production chain that leads to people paying hundreds of millions for spaceships. It has all been designed to work together. Now suppose your asking play station players to fight over something that is only worth 8m a month in profit. To scale everything properly, the armored vehicle will need to cost several thousand isk, the infantry combat gear hundreds of isk, and the financial rewards in the same area, to make it viable to fight over the planet. This is fine. This is how it should be. Ground combat should be massively cheaper than running around in spaceships.
However, with the two markets being somewhat connected or the currencies exchangeable, you have a problem. In respect to the costs of ground combat in Dust, the average Eve player would be filthy fucking rich. Presumably, there are poor people in New Eden, people that don't have clones, people that do the janitor work. But we aren't concerned with them, we have been concerned with the other people that fly spaceships and try to kill us before we kill them. So in practice, in relation to the rest of New Eden, capsuleers are the Fortune 50,000 club. They have also had a decade to acquire more.
Now you enter a bunch of these poor people (its a perspective, not an insult) running around with machine guns and tanks for thousands of credits. There are capsuleers that could literally buy every NPC item produced in Dust and delete it, every day for the next decade and still making billion(s) isk every hour. (unless there is an infinite and instantaneous respawn rate) There are alot of problem with this example, especially while its in the NPC control stage, but most of those details disappear once the economy is player run. The idea is that Eve players could destroy the Dust economy with little effort, they could grief it, they could buy everything and raise the prices, and still have the money to buy up the people trying to undercut them. They could even make money this way.
Economically, I'm of the Austrian school. I'm a fan of the sandbox, and of free-markets. I think that markets left to their own devices tend to fix themselves because thousands of people all trying to get more tend to advance technology, lower overall prices, and fight vigorously to ensure that real monopolies never succeed in the long run.
Although Eve's economy isn't a free markets, its as close anyone has gotten in an MMO. To a large extent, Eve's economy has and will continue to fix itself; we find it doing this most often when CCP fails to fix something and creates second and third order unintended problems. (flashback real world) The problem is more that in the real world you have to endure market shakeups, endure layoffs, and invest in institutions that are legally protected. (you go to jail for fraud…hypothetically) The way to opt out of the game is to either kill yourself or become a homeless vagrant. Most people choose to keep playing real life. Eve and Dust are games. The tolerance for waiting for the market place (or CCP) to fix or sort through all the malevolent, malicious, or profit hungry activities that the saddistic Eve Fortune 50,000 could bring to bear against all these poor Dust players is probably very small. A couple weeks of the game being shit is probably the most any player will endure, even a "free" game.
This is just a small treatment of a very issues that could arise, but is at the heart of the matter. Dust is a world of poor people meeting a world of rich people. In the long term if people kept playing inspite of Eve players, a great transfer of wealth would probably occur between Eve and Dust until Eve players were tired of wasting money griefing Dust players. Eventually it would become to costly to keep griefing poorer eve players that are trying to economically fight the griefers, and make a profit doing so. Eventually Eve and Dust players would develop well understood profit making methods that would even out this all out. Eventually prices would find a stable place. Eventually the game would be economically playable. EVENTUALLY. Will anyone own a play station long enough?
Notes: The extremes of this matter are entirely debatable, and ultimately unpredictable. Regardless, the creativeness, fake money available, and the creative maliciousness of Eve players is not something to bet your company against in the short term.
Also, Sugar Kyle, you never invited me to Vegas. I'm hurt.
Can't believe they worked on this crap rather than WoD
I doubt it will be easy to directly transfer ISK between games. If you can just hand over 1-billion ISK to your Dusk corp from your Eve character it would completely destabilize the Dusk economy. Inflation would ruin the game. They will probably have the ISK exchanges work like a contract and control the pricing by set min-max values of the task being contracted. At least initially.
The Eve economy is designed around supporting people buying spaceships and the PI and all these things have fallen into place and been tweeked to support that.