TweetFleet: Change Takes Time…

By riverini | Oct 7th 2012 2:58PM
64 Comments

Today’s TweetFeet discussion is a comment I found on the K.com Northern thread. Much has been said about the DekCo’s AlphaFleet against the DOT Brothers AHACs when the numbers are more or less even on both sides.

TweetFleet: Change Takes Time…

Make no mistake, the AlphaFleet will melt anything in sight (ask IRC if you don’t believe me), but against a good FC who knows the optimals, ranges and proper tactics the effectiveness of the fleet is mitigated to some extend, in the past the DekCo countered this by simply throwing more pilots into the fray. Some k.com commenters have mentioned an increase in the amount of folds (blueballs) the DekCo has been presenting the DOT Bros lately, yet after the usual mud-slinging an interesting comment came up by StevieTopSiders from 401k:

why doesn’t CFC have no new doctrines after like 4 months of getting dicked deeeply by Zealots…

Countering AHACs is not easy, in the past tripling the number of Drakes solved the homework for GoonSwarm Federation – but now after dwindling numbers, specially during weak timezones and even welping a few fleets on the strongest time zone, it does beg the question StevieTopSiders posted. I do have to mention that GoonSwarm tried ThunderCats a few months ago with good success, but this was the result of having a ton of Caldari enabled pilots than aiming for that doctrine from scratch.

Quesa from NCDOT quipped:

With any large organization, change takes time *looks at his own government in shame*.

When looking at doctrines, there isn’t much out there that they can swap too that can guarantee them better results than what they have been getting. Addtionally, a swap of doctrines, especially when you are looking at things such as a swap from shield to armor or guns to missiles, the training is months away for a good portion of low-SP pilots which the CFC still openly foster. *kudos*

Zealots also haven’t been deep dicking Maelstroms reliably. We have our good days and bad, today didn’t go all that well, tomorrow we may dumpster a fleet.

Finally, any fleet doctrine change to counter aHacs will likely involve heavy investment and an initial spike in reimbursements in the tunes of billions as people learn to fly another doctrine which undoubtedly will take time to learn properly.

Smaller groups are better able to cope with these changes.

On the other hand.

It is worthy to mention the the FoxCats Doctrine case within the HBC and I mention this because they are one of the largest entities on the game.

Still the discussion is on, change takes time if you are a larger entity or just all is required is a bit of willpower?

Discuss.

- R

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  • M1k3y

    CFC limits their doctrines severely because they cant use T2/T3 doctrines.
    The reason they can welp Drake fleets day in day out is because, after insurance, a drake fleet doesn't cost much to reimburse.

    If CFC had to reimburse a Zealot fleet every other day, they would begin to start losing isk, despite their tech superiority.

    • dotbro

      CFC Has already lost close to 3 Trillion isk in this war, far more then any tech gains have netted them thus far.
      NCdot hasn't spent 1 Trillion yet, and we have a lot more then that to spend. Shitting on goons is priceless after all.

      • Epic

        Cfc has lost more than 3.5trillion iskin this war so far & counting ;) 4 titans and 4 SCs helped out a little :P

    • Someguy

      Although they’re far more expensive then drake fleets keep in mind that even with insurance zealot fleets aren’t that much more expensive to welp than battleship fleets, which the CFC do run frequently. The problem as I see it however is that the time it takes to get everyone in an alliance like the CFC that doesn’t have a uniformly high SP base to train for an unrelated t2/3 fleet isn’t that much less then it would take to get everyone into sentry carriers. This might not sound that noteworthy outside of the logistical benefits, since NC. for example already have this and don’t make use of it for good reason. Large enough blobs of carriers are however very nasty if you have a serious enough SC advantage over your opponents that they can’t field them. They aren’t overtly cheap however they are difficult to welp in any serious numbers without the use of SC’s or dread swarms by your opponents and have very good and highly varied damage projection, albeit with an EHP loss if they need more tracking. Before anybody points it out yes they did welp 19 of them the other day, however even if say a drake fleet were to take that much damage in EHP it would still be more costly. This becomes even more slanted towards the carriers when one takes into account the massive advantage the increased EHP per ship and resists give them for the purposes of remote repair.

      • Meat Gazer

        Breath motherfucker BREATH!

    • Maid

      the problem with zealot fleets isn't that you need to reimburse them, but that you need Tech 2 guns to make them do anything. So apart from having a T2 hull, you have T2 guns also, which take another three weeks or so to train for from zero

      • M1k3y

        Most of the CFC has been flying drakes long enough to have T2 launchers.
        Any good PVP fit needs T2 weapons, so Zealots needing Scorch to do much isnt that bit an issue since CFC needs T2 launchers to have a good ROF/DPS

        (HML nerf this winter o/)

  • Bad Goon Newbie

    What's a Zealot? Do I still push F1 in it?

    • Get out

      LOL. Youre so fucking funny! Hyuk fucking hyuk.

  • CFC pilot

    riverini man, make a special news post explaining all those names: foxcasts, slowcats, thundercats. Seriously, wtf do all those mean?

    • http://gamingmod.blogspot.co.uk/ Versuvius Marii

      [name]Cat was originally coined by PL, but then Riv came along and slapped Cat on the end of almost all fittings – I don't believe for a second that PL created all these fleet doctrines. But I echo your call for what each doctrine is. I think Slowcats are sentry carriers, not a clue about the others you ask about.

      Also how long til the Pipe Bomb fleet gets renamed into a Cat fleet…?

      • dfsd

        Bobcat

        • TESTy

          Grumpycat

          • Cuntcat

            Cuntcat.

          • DarthNefarius

            PUSSYcat

          • C U N T Y

            What faggot neg repped this? Go fuck yourself you shitcat. LOL

      • Humble_miner

        >> Muhadin: "Whoever decided to make the name hellcats, that every cat name has come from, should go die in a fire."
        > Shadoo: "Elendar and Jogyn."

        Go blame those guys…

      • whatever

        "[name]Cat was originally coined by PL"

        what do these cats have in common? Hellcat, Bearcat, Wildcat, Tomcat, Tigercat, (Ag cat), ….

        They are refer to Grumman aircraft and – except for the Ag Cat – are fighters used by the US Navy,

        • CuntY

          Yeah bro, I gave up trying to argue with the numbskulls, do you know a lot of a faggots think 'hellcat' comes from some fucking TV show? History is so neglected.

      • ~~~

        All the -cat fleets have been either designed or been brought to nullsec as a major fleet doctrine through PL: Hellcats, Herocats, Thundercats, Swiftcats, Shieldcats, Slowcats, Fatcats, Foxcats in order iirc.

        Being Pulse abaddons vs drakes, neuting suicide tempests vs supers, 10mn tengu vs the NC shitfleets, sentry ishtars vs thundercats, rokhs vs thundercats and earlier vs nc shitfleets for a time, sentry carriers vs solar, large blapping dread fleets vs the south, pulse apocs vs -a- cowardfleet tengus.

    • dotbro

      Foxcat = Navy Apocolypse with pulse lasers
      Slowcat/Das Boot = Sentry Drone RR/Carriers
      Thundercats = 10mn AB HM Tengu's

      You could of course figure all this out by yourself with this radical new interweb tool called "Google"

    • mario

      foxcats are abaddons I think, slowcats sentry carriers , and I want to say Thundercats are tengu's but I could be wrong. [name]cat is getting tossed around frequently these days it is hard to keep up.

      • mario

        and by abaddons i mean apocs.

    • http://evenews24.com riverini

      Already did a few months ago:

      FoxCats: http://www.evenews24.com/2012/09/03/ask-dr-fit-fo…
      SlowCats: http://www.evenews24.com/2012/08/08/ask-dr-fit-wh…

      will make some more…

  • LOL.

    its preposterous to use "tweetfleet" as name for anything but the eve-twitter-scene, and this is not from there.

  • mario

    Id wager most GSF pilots can't switch doctrines on the fly. Most likely require extensive training. Contrast to DOTBros. who have pilots who can fly mostly and sub cap composition, whenever they so choose. The flexibility allows for diverse fleet options, which is a huge advantage.

    Even if GSF has been secretly training a doctrine, do they have the capacity to change quickly if DOTBros. hard counter it?

    Personally I think it has more to do with pilot age/skill set, than it does money. GSF I don't think have an issue with money, they have been making money for a long long time, and whelping drakes isn't that expensive, hell an hour or two of ratting after a fleet can have most pilots paying for their own drakes after insurance anyway. Then again I imagine they just have drakes churning out for free, non stop through their industrial back bone. Which is why the doctrine change (or more accurately lack there of) I think is due to skill limits and not monetary limits.

    • Guy

      The cfc encourages their pilots to have at least missiles and projectiles trained up.

      They ought to be able to run maels, tempests, nados, munins, lokis, tengus and drakes either right now or with just a few weeks of training. That's a pretty decent set of options, which kinda suggests that it's not the SP that's the problem.

      I'd say one of the biggest issues is the fact that ncdot can put stuff into Australian timezone if they're on the defensive (just before and after downtime). Ncdot has the highest concentration of active, experienced, high skillpoint players in that timezone. The cfc can't bring superior numbers to make up for their lack of SP and experienced players in AUTZ without alarm clocking – which is a bad thing to do because burns people out 'really' fast. So we end up with the situation now where there's very few strategic gains on either side.

      • Someguy

        To be honest that SP set is actually fairly limiting in regards to practical fleets it lets them use outside of t3 stuff, which genuinely does get expensive if you welp it in serious numbers.

        I'm not sure I'd claim the CFC can't bring more players then Ncdot in AUTZ on paper. The problem is more that they were/are disorganised as hell in AUTZ which led to some welps and iffy turnouts due to them not being used to the time zone. This then lead to the burnout of which you speak by the time they even started trying to get their shit together for AUTZ.

        • Guy

          They still have a bunch more options than just alpha maels and drakes, even with that skillset and not using t3 ships.

          They can bring slightly more than ncdot around downtime but it's not like EU or US time where they can bring ridiculous numbers. Plus a lot of the Australian cfc players are very casual or are carebears so the numbers were going to drop really fast regardless.

          • Just Bob

            GSF is an old alliance at this point, do most of their members not have high levels of SP?
            or has the average truly stayed relatively low?

          • Random Miner

            they seem to have a portion of pilots who have been with them forever, so obviously high sp. But for them a big thing they are proud of is the noob drives, which are ever pouring the lowest of the low sp players into the alliance. This keeps the portion of players low sp.
            And goonswarm is a favored alliance for noobs to join becuase they get to learn null tactics and how to fit ships, and some undoubtidly leave to join other groups who focus more on high sp and ability. So Goonswarm probably has a constant flow of high sp going out and low sp coming in (aside from the high sp players who are hardcore goonies). Much like eve uni, test, etc.

          • nc.

            "null tactics" in the broadest sense of the term :p

          • Guy

            This is basically the thing. Outside of the SA pilots a lot of the cfc people don't have a huge investment in their alliance and will gladly wander off to ncdot, PL, BL etc once they have a decent amount of isk, kills and SP. The same thing happens for my alliance, although we're not a part of the cfc, but the idea is the same anyway.

            This means that broad coalitions like the cfc will always have a significant portion of their membership having low SP or very little experience.

          • lol

            I would say most decent alliances would laugh at ex cfc pilots that try to join and tell them to get lost.

          • Guy

            Then you'd be wrong. PvP alliances are happy to grab decent players out of the cfc.

      • mario

        Encouraging and requiring are quite different. DOTBROs. Require you to be able to field specific ships, across a variety of doctrines. This means that their pilots are all capable of filling multiple roles within multiple doctrines.

        The GSF is limited pretty much to Alpha Fleet, and Drake Fleet, both of which are whelping time and time again against the AHACs fielded by DOTBROS. Really the only fleet that seems to be holding its ground is the Boot fleets but they are not an everyday fleet, and limited more in quantity than the ability for GSF to set up AHAC's of their own most likely.

        So it shows that it comes directly down to the SP of available pilots.

        As for the AUTZ crutch, GSF is losing engagements around the clock, their fleet sizes are dwindling around the clock, and they have made limited progression in their northern campaign. I don't really understand your last argument that there is few strategic gains on either side. Last I checked it was GSF that stated conquest, and DOTBROs who stated we got bored and wanted fights. Strategic value to DOTBROS is making this war last as long as possible for GSF, at least according to DOTBROS smug posts anyway.

        So I would say DOTBROS is experiencing great strategic success. GSF still doesn't have Tribute, they still don't have H-W, and they are fielding less and less each week, and docking up across 3 time zones rather than engaging. To me it would appear that morale is extremely low in the GSF camp, likely a combination of the following.

        1. FC's whelping fleets
        2. Fleet Doctrines failing
        3. Shooting structures and not ships.
        4. Making no progress.

        Which all comes down to the GSF fleet mentality. Lots of people, ships don't matter. When the GSF does not out number its opponent 2/3/5:1 They loose, because their pilots are unskilled in both ship training, and ship flying.

        Just my observations but DOTBROS clearly have the advantage in terms of skill and flexibility which is essentially the requirement of how doctrines are fleshed out, and implemented. GSF simply can not change its doctrines on the fly.

        • gruntofncdot

          Dotbros have the advantage of flexiibilty,it is the very definition of elite (focused) pvp.It is why we have a sp requirement,so that we can indeed switch doctrines on the fly. CFC would have you believe the SP requirement is to keep noobs out.. but its primary function is to be able to field the hard counter to any doctrine. CFC lacks this flexibilty, either from a SP standpoint or production standpoint. Dot bros dont say ''train for this doctrine'' they say ''we will be flying this doctrine so go buy them'' Dotbros are allso judged harshly for mistakes,either makeing you a better pilot or makeing you quit the alliance.. either way they become a better fleet. This is allso frowned on by CFC and thier kind who have a touchy feely hugfest resulting in fun by all and huge welps. I cant tell you how many late warpers,non warpers.. confused pilots we kill on every engagement. What CFC lacks in adapability they more than make up with sheer volume.

          • Random CFC Grunt

            Keep the "elite" word out of it if you could. Elite for me is not focused or flexible, elite is when you jump solo into a local, you see one or two guys from an "Elite" corp and your first thoughts are "If these two are on the out-gate – I'm soooo fucked!". NCDOT doesn't yield that kind of reaction.I get that thought when I see someone from RnK or AGONY for example. I don't want this post to be offensive so I won't write what I think when I see NCDOTties on local (suffice it to say – I don't like them and not because of the ongoing conflict or the long-going CFC/NCDOT rivalry on multiple levels. I have my own and very old reasons). NCDOT is the same as GSF (note – NOT CFC, you're not quite there yet) and whatever you may believe, flying zealots vs drakes or nagas vs maelstroms doesn't make you even a tiny little bit better. You operate the same way, some of your members may be (and probably are) better than the mainstream goon but some of our members may be (and probably are) better than the mainstream NCDOTtie. If you start discussing proportions of good vs bad players – you're deluding yourself.

        • Guy

          If ncdot can start taking cfc systems then I'll start believing the 'dotbros are having great strategic success' line. Only one system has moved in the past week or two. Before that CFC took 40 tech moons and half of tribute. That looks to me like a stalemate more than anything.

          If ncdot starts winning euro and us timers then sure, you'd be right. Maybe they will start doing so in a couple of weeks. I guess we'll see.

          • mario

            But that is not the DOTBROS goal. They openly stated at the beginning of the war, numerous times, that their goal was to get GF's. They said numerous times they have no desire for SOV grinding, and have no intent in turning this into a SOV war. It is a war to get fights, because the blue balls of OTEC were making their pilots bored.

            Unless their goal has now changed the DOTBROS are getting what they desire, strategically destroying fleets, supers, and aborting baby titans. To me that sounds like OP success given the parameters outlined in their initial goals from the war.

            In fact they have gone as far as opening a second front on SOLAR because for some reason the GSF fleets have been reluctant to engage the DOTBROS.

            As far as your definition of Strategic Success…Id still have to give the points to DOTBROS, as they have successfully buried their timers into a time zone that GSF apparently has no members, nor FC's. Strategy wise that seems like a very successful play, which supports their long term goals of getting GF's.

            GSF has captured objectives as well, but they are strictly SOV related, which was their goal, however they have not had resounding success. The 40 tech moons you seem to hold as evidence of such haven't even covered the whelping of the fleets to attain them. A resounding success no, but it is a success none the less.

            And thus is the very core of why GSF is mired in miserable stagnation. Their pilots are losing morale in not only the campaign that GSF desires, SOV grinding isn't fun, especially when the other party doesn't really care for that space anyway, but even less fun is fleeting up to whelp a fleet. On top of this the Goon Pets lose faith in the leadership of GSF each day, and things like not coming to an "allies" aid "because they derped a timer" is reminiscent of siting by and watching the old NC whelp Supers. (heck GSF even fired on several of them).

            Losing support of their own pilots, losing support of their pets, being openly mocked by the greater eve community, and making no progress. That doesn't sound like a very successful strategic operation.

            Meanwhile DOTBROS bring more and more pilots with similar desires into their fold, they seek fights, and are getting them from GSF and SOLAR, fleets are operating around the clock, more and more allies join every day, and they are preventing both SOLAR, and GSF from making any headway. Not bad for a bunch of shit posters who didn't want that space anyway.

          • Baddies being bad

            Thats a pretty good summary!

          • Unknown

            Seriously? I'm not sure how others in the CFC are dealing with it but our orders are "it'd be nice if you show up if there's a timer but nothing is mandatory." "Probably should put some ships in UMI if you can."

            The only reason CFC #'s might be going down is just random carebear times, other crap going on, got bored, etc. If the "Horn of Gondor" ever gets blown and there's an All Hands on Deck call the #'s will blot out the sun. And you know that. Enjoy the slow burn for now. It's more interesting. If they ever decide they want to "finish this shit" you will know.

  • Gary Bell

    I am really starting to get why no one really reads this site lol.. Your facts are so stupid its funny.. For the guy who thinks CFC cant replace zealots lol you do know that rokths and malestroms cost more then zealots by a large margin.. derp and we welp those all day? Not to mention rokths are still a new fleet doctrine that people are still training to lol.. the stupid here blows me away

    • SOCO

      And yet, here you are….o.0

    • low sec call center

      why do you keep say "rokths" do you have a lisp?

  • CFC Grunt

    Well from a strategic point of view it does not matter, it is just a matter of costs. Nancy's ass is still ours.

  • random carebear

    What does alpha fleet mean?

    • John Douche

      Ships with weapons dealing a high alpha damage. I.e. Maelstroms with Artillery.

      The point is to do as much damage in a single shoot with all the ships in the fleet to overcome an enemy's logistics support. It requires of every pilot to synchronize their weapons' fire (the weapons are fired when commanded by the FC). The goal is to 1-shot each of the enemy's ships and to demoralize the enemy (there is nothing one can do when being zapped like flies).

      The larger a fleet gets however the less meaning full this strategy becomes, because the damage will grow with the fleet size to a point where just any weapon type will do to 1-shot a ship. So the strategy gets used in medium sized fleets or in combination with other fleet types.

      • John Douche

        *lol* After almost one hour does a comment now appear?

        And Sorries for submitting it twice…

    • John Douche

      It is a fleet of ships with a high alpha damage. I.e. Maelstroms with Artillery.

      The goal is to 1-shot the enemy's ships, breaking through their logistics and thereby to demoralize, because there is nothing the enemy can do to avoid losing ship after ship. The pilots of an alpha fleet need to synchronize their weapons in order to achieve this.

      The larger a fleet gets however the less meaningful it becomes, because at some point will any weapon type do. The strategy works best for a medium sized fleet or in combination with other fleets to form a larger force.

      • Qwerty4812

        alpha was designed b4 tidi. where weapon shots wouldn't register in EVE. it was hoped that through the crippling lag that a few shots would get through, meaning they have to have immense damage pershot, hence alpha fleet was born, but now with TIDI, there is no need for such alpha measures

        • BntyHunter

          True now its best to use Rails or 1200`s not the 1400`s of old, a 1200 arty still does 6k ALpha and its ROF is great enough and tracking x2 better to where it actually is useful vs guardians at 30km and 2 1200` Pests even can Alpha Guardians before they are Repped.

          I was just insta poped i n a Stabberfleet before I was locked, showing me TIDI and lag is still shit.

        • John Douche

          No, but some people picked up the idea as so often without understanding why.

          High alpha weapons have a drawback which is a long cycle time. It means you fire less shots. When you then fear to lose shots, but choose a weapon with a long cycle time, are you not really gaining anything. If your FCs picked AlphaFleets and told you it would help against lag then they may have told you this to boost your morale, because lag does not help when all weapons must be synchronized and everybody needs to stay focused.

          The main idea is to 1-shot ships. It is as fun for your pilots to shoot ships in a single shot as it is demoralizing for the enemy who cannot do anything about it. It makes the force of a fleet appear bigger, without being bigger and needing every pilot.

          The effect is that one simply does not want to get near to an AlphaFleet while one still has got a choice and your own logistics support is operational. You rather want to pick a target where your ships have a chance to survive with the help of logis instead of engaging the AlphaFleet where you are guaranteed to make losses.

          Of course, it depends on a lot more factors to make it work, but I hope you get the idea. Think of it as the "sheep dog" principle, because sheep could charge and try to overrun a dog, but they fear its teeth, avoid the effort and so become controllable. For the same reason does an AlphaFleet need to stay aligned at all times, hehe.

  • Anon

    You may also want to think about the logistics of a 'whelped' fleet; Rokhs and Drakes are T1 vessels, the minerals for which are readily available, easily compressed and transported, and can be built by any character that has Production Efficiency V, Advanced Mass Production IV (10 production slots), and Industry I. In other words, an alt with minimal training and a total login time of only a moment or two, so long as the blueprint and minerals are available.

    Contrast that with a T2 ship, the materials for which must be transported in bulk, must undergo, at best, a two-stage manufacturing process, with far more skills needed, blueprint copying, datacores, invention, and many other details that must all be attended to before the ships can be built, and those ships need more skills just to build them. Far more time spent logged in to each character involved in the process, and much more time must be invested into each character involved.

    That 'minimal skill points needed' approach advocated by the CFC fits well with T1 production, but gets considerably strained for T2 ships (which are also more difficult to invent than modules (30% base chance vs. 40% – trust me, it makes a huge difference in your success rate).

    • suspect bystander

      moving ships by jump freighter is hard :(

      i mean you conly move 36 zealots per go :(

  • Perkele

    The way it looks like…

    NC. is using AHAC doctorine against CFC

    Solar block is using same AHAC doctoring against NC.
    NC. counters Solar block's AHAC doctorine

    CFC copies NC. tactic against solar block's AHAC fleet.

    Result: ~70 dead zealot againist ~25 dead BS o.O
    Seems like there is some sort of backroom dead with CFC & Solar going on.

    • Perkele

      Two counters NC. has been using against Solar's AHAC fleet
      -Mael & Rokh fleet with Heavy web points, paint, and shield rep support (I believe this is the one CFC used recently againt NC.)
      -Pulse/Beam/Arty Abaddon fleet also with Heavy web points, paint & armor rep support.

      It's not really that AHACs have no counter, it's just that drake fleets are the worst way to counter AHAC docotine lol.

      • nc.

        Maels and rokhs don't counter ahacs, even a lil bit. Drakes actually ARE the counter to ahacs, its just the cfc suck at flying their ships, and the badhac setup helps when fighting drakes.

        But yea i really don't like it when we use rokhs/maels against solars ahacs, they don't work well. Baddons do work pretty good tho.

        • derp

          It's those crappy perma mwd drakes. What you need is a drake with more tank, and a target painter – IT WORKS (unless the fc is a crackhead)

        • Perkele

          Drakes are indeed a counter to AHAC ONLY fleet,

          but an AHAC fleet escorted by firewall ships, missiles simply won't work anymore =).

          Maels & Rokhs (with heavy Paint/Web support) can effectively counter AHACs for two reasons
          (1) Sheer alpha damage being registered (Due to web + paint) kills target instantly
          (2) Maels & Rokhs have fatter tanks compared Drakes, allowing better chance to receive reps and survive. As for Sig radius… against a CRUISER weapon, BC & BS sig radius are comparatively negligible. So only tank is how big of a shield/armor they have.

          For most of drake vs. AHAC fights… Either CFC is being overtly "generous" in giving fair fight to Dotbros by handicapping themselves or they are simply being douschebags.

  • IRC FC

    The article mentions about our experience of alpha fleets. We used these a great deal in the past with decent success, though for this war they have taken more of a back seat so we slot in with dotbro doctrines. Perhaps part of the reason goons and pets don't use the ahacs was because of a dumpstering they received from an IRC alphafleet a few months back when they tried it out. Vid link here.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg_jPghYpQU

  • Glenn

    "why doesn’t CFC have no new doctrines"

    They shouldnt not be getting no new doctrines until they dont havent the old ones !

  • temujin1234
  • M1k3y

    Dont forget that Gila fleet!