Jester’s Trek: The dog that didn’t bark

I apologize in advance.  This post is written slightly off-the-cuff.  I’ve only had about a half day to think about it, but the topic is important enough that I want to get some initial thoughts out as quickly as possible.  I might have more to say on this topic in the next few days that might amend, change, or destroy some of what follows.  You have been warned.

In the Sherlock Holmes story “Silver Blaze”, a major plot point revolves around a dog that doesn’t bark when expected.  Ever since then, thinking about the dogs that don’t bark has been an important element of being able to think outside the box.  If something is missing from a business plan or proposal, why is it missing?  As Swanson’s Unwritten Rules of Management puts it (it’s #4), “Look for what is missing. Many know how to improve what’s there, but few can see what isn’t there.”

Keep that in mind as you think about the EVE Online cash PvP tournament announced this week.  Is this Alliance Tournament XI?  No… because we’re told that CCP wants alliances to be less of a factor.  CCP wants players to be able to participate regardless of alliance affiliation.  What will the tournament be called, then?  We don’t know that, either.  The title of the dev-blog is “New Eden Open $10,000 Tournament“, but that’s kind of a mouthful.  But we’re given some hints.

CCP Navigator, in the EVE Online forum thread about this tournament, provides a little gold mine of such hints and as such I quote the relevant forum post in full:

Steve is right to a large extent but I really want to spend some time talking about this as EVE tournaments and eSports are something that CCP Bro and I talk about at length.

In an ideal world we want to expand eSports to become a really big deal in EVE Online and allow players access to a host of tournaments of different sizes with a range of prizes. This is a long term goal and, if I am being completely honest, we have a lot of decision making and planning to do to make this a reality. We want to see tournaments involving everyone from small groups to huge alliances but this is will be much further down the road.

20 PLEX is not a bid every player can make and, as Steve pointed out, there needs to be a barrier of entry otherwise we would end up with a random drawing of hundreds of teams. We are aware that a tournament of this size will attract some of the best pilots from multiple corporations and alliances and we would expect that these teams will be sponsored by their respective corps and alliances.

This tournament is about celebrating individuals who can form a team, not necessarily from the same corps and alliances, and guide those teams to greatness.

There’s a lot there, but before I talk about it, let’s add one more hint.  Back in May when the relationship between own3d.tv and CCP was announced, CCP said that they were going to shift the entrance fee to PLEXes — and in doing so, effectively substantially raise the entry fee — because they wanted to use the RL money those PLEXes represented to provide a much higher-quality tournament experience.  Now in the end, AT10 turned out pretty well but I think we all know the most memorable thing about some of those tournament fights, and it wasn’t the fights.  It was all of the problems actually broadcasting them.

This time, CCP Sreegs skips all that and flatly says:

What we do have is a cost of entry in order to ensure that those who are stating they wish to compete have enough skin in the game to take it seriously.

OK.  With all of that in mind, let’s talk about what I think CCP’s goals are here, and what’s likely to happen that’s going to effectively subvert those goals.

Electronic sports, or “eSports” are an increasingly big deal in video games these days.  Video gamers are rarely able to be rock stars or professional sports legends, so who can resist the appeal of being a rock star professional sports legend playing video games?  To use one example, League of Legends, quite literally millions of dollars are involved per year and tens of thousands of dollars are paid in prizes.  Compared to this, CCP’s dunking one toe into the eSports pool is pretty small beer, and League of Legends is far from the largest eSports venue in the world.

And of course, these kinds of tournaments are great advertising for the games themselves and go a long way toward attracting new players.  When you get right down to it, for instance, LoL is a quite limited repetitive game.  If it didn’t have the eSports cachet, would it have the player base that it does?  I think a reasonable argument can be made that the answer is “no”.  LoL directly benefits from its eSports reputation and I’m sure that CCP would like to get in on some of that action.

CCP Bro says:

During ATX we received positive feedback and were asked multiple times, why don’t you do more tournaments? We took that question to heart and are here to offer you, you guessed it, more tournaments. Any constructive criticism, pointers and observations are of course completely welcome and will help us better this service to you in the future.

And I’m all for that.  But there’s a problem: so far it doesn’t look like this tournament has been thought through.  At all.

EVE Online has the most competitive meta-game of any MMO on the planet, bar none.  Even in the hyper-competitive world of eSports, you usually don’t hear about players going after other players in real life.  But this sort of thing is part of EVE even before real-life money was thrown into the mix.  Fortunately for this first test, the amount of RL money is extremely small.  Split 16 ways, $6000 U.S. is $375, and I can tell you from experience that the players involved will have to put in at least a hundred hours of work if not much more to claim that $375.  And that assumes that the prize money would be split evenly amongst the players.

You can quite literally make more money running a lemonade stand over the summer or working in a fast-food place than you can make from this tournament.  So every person who is focusing on the RL money involved is missing the point.  You’re listening to the barking dog.  Instead, look for the dog that isn’t barking.

CCP Bro, CCP Navigator, and the other organizers are looking for concrete suggestions about this tournament.  I have one: get busy writing some rules around meta-gaming this tournament.  Because you’ve only written four tournament rules and only one of them is looking at EVE’s meta-game.  That’s the dog that isn’t barking.

$6000 U.S.?  That’s chump change.  For an EVE player that wants to make some money on this tournament, I can imagine dozens of ways for them to meta-game this format, each one of them able to bring in dozens or even hundreds of PLEXes worth thousands of dollars for each method.  Well-known EVE PvPers will have the ability to quite literally print money in the run-up to this tournament… and then still participate in the tournament with whatever teams they like.  And right now, there’s no rules against any of it.

Say you’re Garmon, for instance, and you’re looking to make an absolute ton of ISK over this.

What’s to stop you from advertising yourself as the Captain of a neutral, noob-friendly team, charging four PLEXes per entrant, and privately signing up hundreds of entrants before walking away with all their PLEXes?  Nothing.

What’s to stop you from advertising yourself and selling yourself as a free agent to a dozen teams, charging 20 PLEXes per team, and then not showing up for any of them?  Nothing.

What’s to stop you from advertising yourself as a professional team coach and adviser, charging 25 PLEXes per team you’re coaching, and then not coaching any of the teams?  Nothing.

What’s to stop you from advertising yourself as a team coach for a dozen teams at 25 PLEXes per team, coaching and advising them in good faith but also sharing everyone’s strategies with everyone else?  Nothing.

What’s to stop you from acting as a practice partner for a couple of dozen teams?  Nothing.

What’s to stop you from acting as a practice partner for a couple of dozen teams, and then taking notes and using their strategies against them with your own team come the actual tournament?  Nothing.

What’s to stop you from advertising a dream team with a half-dozen or a dozen sponsors and asking for and getting 100 PLEXes from all of them, then not acknowledging any of them?  Nothing.

What’s to stop you from getting all of these sponsors and then acknowledging them in good faith?  Nothing.

What’s to stop you from running all of the scams above and then running a legitimate team too?  Nothing.  Nothing at all.

As far as I can see, none of these things are against the rules.

And all of these questions are ones you can ask before you ask the sillier questions like “what’s to stop someone from buying up and/or sponsoring every team so they can RMT PLEXes for $10000 U.S.?”  That dog is barking and I’m ignoring it, thanks.  I’m too busy listening to the dog that isn’t barking.

On these kinds of topics, CCP Soundwave had this to say:

Sure, but we’re going to be even harsher on colluding and foul play this year, so any sign that you’re even remotely doing that and you’re getting disqualified (and we’ll keep the plexes of course)

But right now, none of these things are against the rules because there are hardly any rules.  So what’s legal and what’s illegal?  We don’t know.

Like I said, running more frequent EVE tournaments is a great idea.  But this one hasn’t been thought through very well yet.

Ripard Teg

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  • Wreck

    Whining, bitching, mindless speculation.

    • M1k3y

      So… EVE?

  • idiotpolice

    The Pvp engine of eve is the best piece of IPR CCP own. And going reports around this is no brainer. However tacking a massive fee on it is ridiculous and is a tax because the game is attached to "the sandbox" or as I call it "the place where my cat takes shit". Meta gaming etc will be rife if all of this is done via the current servers and sandbox setups. If there was a pure eve arena style setup it could work. But whilst you are open to all forms of spying and meta gaming its not going to work. And don't tell me you can play in a wh on sisi that is soooo wrong not only are you doing the metaphoric equivalent of masturbating by not pvping with the rest of the community the logistic effort is stupid. Whilst AT is good is really just the battle of the hyper nerds. CCP stop tossing off over the sandbox dream and make an arena based version.

  • vvresa

    this guy clearly has no idea about esports.

  • pew pew

    scams are part of eve. I don't see the problem here. RMT is a loss for CCP but itsn't directly going to affect player or audience experience.

  • wot ever

    CCP are RMT, so they should be banned :P
    On a serious note, with the actual worl wide crisis CCP should re-think their WOW strategy ( $$$$$ £££££ ) an so on, because looking witht he actual state of game, null sec is gonna be boring as fuck really soon, it means more ppl will unsub, so it mans less income to CCP, so it means more employes in CCP gonna be booted etc etc
    Stop being greedy you fucking islandics and start put a game enjoyable to everyone instead only for a tiny group.

  • nenyim

    "What’s to stop you from advertising yourself as the Captain of a neutral, noob-friendly team, charging four PLEXes per entrant, and privately signing up hundreds of entrants before walking away with all their PLEXes? Nothing.

    i could c this happing at some point

  • something random

    tl:dr

  • Oh Dear Lord

    What they should really do, is a solo tournament.
    Just draw 100 guys, from who want to enter, pay 1 plex or something and have a solo tournament.
    Not only the ones with the big money can enter this way, and it would be lots of fun!

  • PLEXAGEDDON

    The PLEX of price has already been spiking due to the FW Monty Haul Tier 5 campaigns… expect PLEX to rise another 1oo million due to this.
    1 BiLLION ISK PLEX ANYONE?

    • M1k3y

      Calling it now, 1B plex end of 2013.

      I blame the plex cartels in those smokey back rooms that keep the plex price from dropping between T5 pushes.

      • BntyHunter

        No its not T5 pushes, Its power blocks cashing in huge amounts now at same time this mechanic is the popular one and blaming it on that. Before the huge Blocks had to sell ISK, now its easier to sell black market Plexs for 8-10 bucks a pop, befor they had to slowly sell now they can dump it all off fast and all there reserves of Tech/Bot money from the last 2-3 years and blame it of guys like the 5 who said they made trillions.

        Hell using a broken mechanic then reporting that you did and getting caught on purpose doesnt make sense right? It does if you have 2-3 Years of RMT you need doing. So you make a sstory about how you controlled markets and how broken this new mechanic is so everyone thinks its why Plex is up…..Plex is being bought and sold by the major power blocks, from ISK to Plex as fast as they can…This happened the same as when they ade invasions in beginning a few people said its a broken mechanic…then bam Plexs went from 300-500 mil in days, just like now problem is these guys who make so much on T5`s will buy motherships and other things before they buy Plex`s in bulk. So who makes the price spike as soon as the rumors spread? People who have the money already, have as many SC`s as they have accounts and have reached the pinnacle of there gaming and realize they can make a RL good amoun of cash….How you ask? Simple

        Tec/Botting ISK>Waits for "Broken ISK making rumors">Buy HUGE number of plexs and blame it on that>Buy Titan/Mom Characters with 30 Day old accounts>Sell Accounts for 800-1400 Dollars= You make 1k$ USD for 40 Plexs that would have been sold for 8$x40 or 320 Dollars

        Effectively making a high ranking member of a power block selling 2 accounts a month anywhere from 1600 dollars-2400 Dollars [with Ships]

        Thats whats really happening FYI, then a Dad/Older guy can justify to his wife why he plays a video game etc while he has a job and the economy is slow he still is a "CEO" in internet spaceships. Meanwhile a rich kid/Single guy in the US who cant wait gets his christmas/Birthday present or single guy treats himself to end game glory and gets into a PL/Raiden/NCDOT/Anypowerblock he wants with pretty much no questions asked and a Titan.

        Think only 2 CHaracters per month you can make 15k a year as bonus money or fulltime like mittens he could sell 4 a week without anyone noticing since its nothing compared to what GSF has accumulated with 200+ Tecmoons for 3 years now.

        20 Bil in ISK= 1,000$ real money selling accounts

        So 100 Bil AKA 10 Moons out of 200 makes him 60,000$ a Year, And he can double that number easily and that is only a 80 mil SP toon the 120 Mil only sell for 4-5 Bil more but produce 500 Dollars more. Welcome to RMT 101

        • Random Miner

          interesting how playing eve could be a part time job… what's the world coming to

          • BntyHunter

            I dont condone it and im not even accusing anyone specific of doing it, I just know its how it is done from people I have met along the way in Eve. It is done alot more than people think.

  • madness

    Jester raises some really good points about the meta environment of eve, but misses the core part of eve meta gaming which is… Meta is as much a part of eve as pressing F1.

  • DarthNefarius

    Smll & medium non TECH spacerich corps can forget about it with the PLEX auctioning system.
    20 PLEX will probably escalate to100 fast

  • http://gamingmod.blogspot.co.uk/ Versuvius Marii

    <img src=http://memecreator.net/advice-dog/showimage.php/467/LOL-U-MAD-BRO%3F-Y-U-MAD%3F.jpg>
    Had to be done.

  • CCP = RMT = Bank

    Dont CCP run into a problem legally here, as they are wanting plex's to participate in a tournement which the prize of in paid in cash; then arent they ultimatley breaking thier own T&C and addmitting that a plex is a form of currency and leads them down a dodgy road indeed.
    Even at best if they kick someone form the tournement and keep the plex, which has been used to join a competition and cannot show a direct legaly breach of contract. Once the item is deemded to have a cash value in the real world then it becomes a contract and for ccp in any way to breach this contract (which potentialy is worth 10k) would become a legal nightmare if not specifially drawn out in the rules as this is no longer just a subscription that they are pissing about with.

    CCP wanting thier cake and eating it springs to mind, dont want RMT even tho the plex's which are sold ultimatly get bought form them in the first place – argue until they are blue in the face they dont hold a real world value (yeah ok).
    This just shows the greed, Dust has got them all excited about people spending real life money to directly buy items which isnt a problem but the moment you can cash out that ingame isk to say, a plex which has a real world value they become a bank!

    • BntyHunter

      CCP has always RMT`ed, this is the great hypocracy they started cracking down hard before "Unholy Rage" but instead of simply destroying RMTers they added RMTing only through them.

      Problem here being RMT is for the Free2Play model and buying "Gold Ammo" "Skins" etc etc but they already charge 20 Dollars a month and want microtransactions as well.

      So instead of having integrity and saying either yes selling ISk is ok or no its never ok they say its ok as long as we get a cut….Think about it, if you are a super rich Despot of a org like the CFC with a money printer IE Tec moons and to many blobbers to ever get threatened Plex simply makes it easier to RMT, As its much harder to track a player giving 8 plex away than a player giving a blank 3-4 bil for a blank mod or taking the now in game item worth real money and acting like you were pirated and robbed etc.

      Or how about having a site sell GTC`s that convert to plex and having that site get Real money because it refereed the GTC sale like ALL MAJOR EVE SITES DO.

      Eve just made RMTing for isk outdated its now simply buying Plexs from huge Alli`s who buy them in game and sell them. Why do you thin kPlex is 500 mil? Because the Major Alli`s are buying Plexs like Candy and there simply cant be enough issued, then they sell them on a 3rd party website for 8-12 bucks a pop rather than CCP`s 18ish, but does CCP care? No because those Plexs were bought from them befor in the begining the ISK wasnt…..Except it was by paying for monthly Sub fee except those mega Blocks like CFC dont pay subs thy use Plex ingame.

      When you see Plex rise ingame to huge amounts [above 400 mil really] that means ratting with 1 account making 40 mil an hour its 10 hours, but for the Tec lords its seconds, and then they keep the lemmings happy by replacing T1 BC`s they lose by the truck load, and the Lemmings get a T3 and Ratt and pay there Corp 10% which then can be RMT`ed more if they want.

      This is why they need to punish huge blocks by charging for numbers and its why they wont, Think about GSF if they all had to become 1 Corp and all the Alli`s in the Coalition become 1 Alli like it should be to use JB`s Stations etc, then all Goons 155 Corps CEO`s and each 3-4 directors would have to actually pay rather than all the struggling corps in hisec having guys pay for 100 plexs at a time getting a huge mining corp started or 40 plexes for a WH POS setup etc.

      Limiting the numbers by charging for amount of blues would be a major step in the right direction. No more 155 Corps in an alli and 40 Allis in a coalition with all those numbers of Corp leaders skimming off the sheeples….Thats why they dont want Blues to be taxxed at all even though it is the biggest weapon in Eve, CCP allows all those heads of 155 Corps and 3 directors lets say 700 Members never to pay for there subscription but make sure the majority of players never have more than a billion lying around by fighting and constantly losing a little 200 mil this week 100 that week and keeping them from never paying there subs with plex`s.

      So the avg player stays poor, fights for his leaders all for the dream of ratting for a SC or Titan and paying for 3 accounts never to truly be rich….Leaving the top filthy rich and actually making a good living in game and the 85% supporting the rest.

      Tax Blues and they would be forced to be in 1 Alliance and all the sudden all these CEO`s of 20 man Corps who now make there Subs off there ratters/Miners etc are normal soldiers who have to pay like the rest and they cant have that. I was a CEO and I can tell you it is beyond easy to take the 10% tax and pay your own Sub for 3 accounts pay for all your ships and replace ships since the T1 ships/BC`s are mostly covered anyways. Add 1 Tech moon and you will have an SC and have happy Sheeple who all pay Subs and a brand new Titan in 6 Months….

      Zagdul is my prime example he flys a fancy Nighthawk/Command/T3 in every fight and we kill him and he tells his guys to Drake up and he needs it to be FC eventhough hes bad, and guess what he is filthy rich and still doesnt pay. In my Eve he would be a foot soilder just like he really is in GSF and Mittens wouldnt have him as a CEO of a Corp not a "Wanna be mittens " who controls moon goo and makes 100 bil a month off it, all while having fulltime fighters [only 25% show up to fights the rest ratt and make him isk]

      Tax Blues you make a huge Dent in RMTers and Plex price goes down, but now its all being bought in game by PowerBlocks and sold through 3rd parties for 8 dollars a pop.

      • http://gamingmod.blogspot.co.uk/ Versuvius Marii

        Slow down, take a deep breath, and start again. What?

      • https://www.facebook.com/justin.cody.5 Justin Cody

        You're a moron aren't ya..

        You or someone else buys a plex from CCP initially: You/he-she just bought game-time that CCP allows you to re-sell through the in-game market to whoever at whatever rate you think you can get for it.

        The price naturally fluctuates do to supply and demand. People with enough capital can invest in the plexes as an asset which may appreciate in value. ISK is the currency, whereas the plex is what you get in exchange.

        it can be a currency only in barter situations where you are simply exchanging goods and services with no isk involved. The only way isk gets in-game in the first place is through npc bounties.

        The isk faucets are all from pve activity, from the noob ship loss to the last rat popped. The market simply bears the price. This works out best for those who buy plexes with real life cash. They get more isk for their dollar. The average player's wallet is quite a bit fatter than it used to be in 2003/04. These days players consider having a billion isk to be low.

        fly safe

        • https://www.facebook.com/justin.cody.5 Justin Cody

          do = due*

          • BntyHunter

            Of course they issue the plex hence why a "Dirty" ISk seller would want it "Washed" or Laundered.

            Go type in "Buy ISK" most sites will reccomend you trade plex instead as its not monitered as closely at all.

            Point is price goes up and has stayed up since ISK sellers realised its way way safer to use Plex and they all decided as a group to do it at once, so where as before remote plex`s would sit in unsafe locations for cheap now itsactually worth a player buying 80 plexs and using a JF to go and get it with an alt blue to the company…..Hence the price goes up.

            I wasnt actuall ysaying GSF does it for sure I was using them as the latest and greatest in power blocks, but if you actually think all the ISK in Eve is from ratting or Mining you are insane, Tec and Moons is where at least half the ISK the game makes. Not bounties lol. NPC operations has nothing to do with Moons.

            Wallets are fatter not because of what you are saying, but becausee the game is older, in 2005 When I started my 2nd go at Eve there were 4k people on. Now the game is so old there is loads of old ISK floating around, hell I just activated an old toon who was in BoB and she had over 30 Random ships, I also know 3 people who had T2 missile BPO`s…..Its simply old money and the AVG person now is willing to invest RL money thats why.

            In 2003 People wouldnt buy RMT because they wernt sure Eve would make it, look at WOT there goldsales have tripled since they announced Physics and promised not to shutdown US server.

            Old money, just like an immortal who could have invested 100 dollars in say union pacific would be rich now, so did players older players who mostly are rich now….Well them running alliances with 10x the number of old corps means you lose ships at 10x the rate meaning at any ime I used to have 5 Cruisers and solo PVP and when I lost I re-shipped for 10 mil now I need 1 bil to ship up for an avg array of ships.

            ALot of things changed that but mostly age, and sorry to burst your bubble but CCP is RMTing and RMT`ers who arent CCP realised to get on board with CCP`s RMT was much safer….Right now the Plex price to be RMT`d is 8-10 dollars a pop, sure some SomerBlink Addicts wasted 3 g`s RL money over the last year in GTC`s to get the extra 150mil but who cares, im explaining why PLEX has not just risen but stayed high, every single time a broken mechanic hits PLEXS have gone up, but in reality how many actually have joined FW? CCP said 40% increase, that is not enough at all to make all Plexs insta Bought in any location by BOTS, go ahead buy a plex and sell it for 10 mil below price in some remote region, it will get insta bought right off, so an RMTer can sell his loot.

          • Jeremiah

            I love your posts but some of them are getting pretty long. Some of us with add don't even bother to read the wall of text. Like I said I love your posts but if you could put in a TLDR version on your longer ones would be great.

          • BntyHunter

            TLDR…..Botters make up alot of Eve`s economy.
            Plex has made it easier to move ISK that before would have gotten noticed and gotten them banned. Alli`s like GSF are in perfect situation to use Bots as they are tucked very very far away from anything and almost never checked on.

            A Bot makes 20-35 mil with only 50 days training in a CNR with a Cloak……Plex isnt 500 mil because FW or any other flavor of the month PVE action but ISK Sellers using this as an example to explain why so much market action is activated.

          • Azran

            Agree to large extent to the plausibility of your points, just want to point out a fault with one of your comments: "if you actually think all the ISK in Eve is from ratting or Mining you are insane, "

            All isk in eve, orginates from NPC bounty, mission rewards, and (a tiny fraction of NPC commodity buy orders)

            Nothing else 'creates' isk. Moon goo sales, plex sales etc are all movements of isk from one person to another… they dont create isk.

            So Justin's statement: "The only way isk gets in-game in the first place is through npc bounties. " is correct.

          • BntyHunter

            Yes if it was human based.

            Hbot makes 20 mil an Hour and takes 30 days to train, so lets say he mines for 6 months then gets banned esp since they cant monitor nullsec, if he did it 10 hours a day [But in reality they run 10 accounts] thats 200mil per day so at 6 months days….

            All of this is very conservative when we had a few famus botters we interviewed they had bots for 2 years and 50-100 accounts with 10 comps running 10 accounts each and they would rotate in 10 hour shifts. FYI

            So 1 bot at 10 hours a day that can be made in a "Friend Invites" free 51 days will make 1.4 bil per week on the very lowest settings, tuck them away in Deep 35 jump from NPC Dek, Branch or Stain, Detroid etc and its 30-35 mil since the bot isnt interrupted at all by reds and you can run them 16 hours a day.

            1.5 bilish x 4 weeks = 6 bil per month, thats only 10 hours at only 20 mil which a miner makes. But a CNR Bot makes 30ish a Carrier even more.

            Now imagine out of the 40k guys online theres just 1k Bots online thats 200 bil a month easily…..Now Bots have been very very active esp in 2006-2010.

            So the fault here is assuming ALL THE ISK is made now, when in reality alot of these old botters went dormant for 1-3 years with 100`s of billions and these RMT`ers were selling ISK slowly not to be caught, but with stuff like FW and other stuff like when WH`s came out plex`s always rose to 500 mil, eventhough only10% of Eve wasactually being successful.

            These make super amounts of ISK work just like old Gold Strikes…..Alot of Hype and mostly a small ggroup makes the ISK while the others make about the same amount as Lvl 4 missiners make when you add it all up like POS in WH`s and how much they are actually getting supplies etc where as a lvl 4 guy just buys ammo and goes to do a mission he has donbe 50 times before and is lightning fast.

            All ISK is not new, and infact I would bet 30% of ISk made is from Bots, as they dont care about wars etc…..You cant tell me these small alli`s in Catch who just rat can be so rich and pay huge rent just by human ratting with 20-30 actives….Nope they all have Bots active while they work etc and the landlords dont care as long as rent is paid and they get to roam and farm them with kills etc sometimes.

          • erroch

            "but if you actually think all the ISK in Eve is from ratting or Mining you are insane, Tec and Moons is where at least half the ISK the game makes"

            Where do you think the isk comes from that players use to buy the minerals and the tecnetium? The only raw isk faucets are bounties, missions, and the few things NPC corporations actually buy.

            Oh, and the what, 10k isk a new player gets when they start.

            Moon goo, t3 production, doesn't actually generate raw isk.
            PLEX doesn't actually generate raw isk.

            Yes, CCP is facilitating sanctioned RMT via selling PLEX. Before that they did so with sanctioned time card sales. However PLEX nor GTC's actually produce ISK.

            EDIT: Dammit, Azran's post was hidden in the "reply system" Now I see it after I post this. Sorry for repeating what was already said.

          • BntyHunter

            Bots…..Yes the ISK comes from somehwere but look at huge blocks and they have areas and systems just for bots.

            That isnt human Ratting or mining.

            Look at the 184 plex thread above….That is exactly one of the ways I said you can RMT through Plex.

            Act like you were robbed, when in reality he paid real money and they told him where to go, But no that cant be he was a super smart spy right? Yeah so smart he left his Aeon at 77 m/s full ahead outside a pos while he was AFK eating and we killed him.

            Botting ISK and ISK since 2004 is still in the game, thats why im saying now a days all the ISK is definately not player made….Not at all, we have entire old toons 6 years old leaving game with 100`s of billions in ISK, alot was botted and even if alot wasnt and it was grinded it has nothing to do with players now…That old ISK is being used to buy Plex`s then sell them on the internet.

  • plex for cash easy

    What I find is hard for people to understand about RMT is a simple thing called a plex, I take ISK sink it into plex and then sell the plex for real money.

    RMT complete, simple, and easily done. And lets not forget there is not 1 way to track me selling someone a plex for real cash.

    I been doing this for over 2 years now since plex came out. I cant even begin to estimate the real life money I have made, well over 2000 US a month.

  • Random Miner

    I feel so many problems could be solved if CCp had a set price that you could put plex on the market for. It's the one item in game who's prices can be effected by out of game events.
    I beleive CCp should choose the isk value, since it's being paid for with real money it is already in a weird gray area, and it would save alot of scandal.

    The only ones who would bitch are those who either buy TONS of them to simply pay for all the ships they lose in game because they are so bad, and don't want to grind to make isk (but hey they are still going to make isk off the plex) and those who rmt (which who gives a fuck how they feel)

  • s2n pilot

    I can't wait until PL and goons just out-bid everybody, enter as every team, have a field day, and pocket 10k

    • BntyHunter

      A new server to monitor and brute force all our comms :)

  • droljica

    "skin in the game to take it seriously" ….seriously shreeg, are u on drugs or u just living in the game ?

  • unsatisfied reader

    Maybe its another dog barking and thats ccp recent investors and the drive for profits. Do yoy all really belive ccp.isnt aware of the meta game, on the contrary they are embracing it and counting on it assuming evryone will be doing it thus – buying plexes and taking themm off the market.

  • http://evedreams.wordpress.com/ dreamersofreality

    even before the AT XI Plex prices were pretty high. Now with this one its even higher. CCP isn't doing the game any favors by charging plexes for XX this or XX that. The Plex Market right now is all over the place and its because tons of PLEX's are leaving the system, far faster then they are going back in. CCP needs to think of the economic impacts that these "turnys" have on EvE as a whole. Plex is one market that isn't controlled by in game functions, guns/ammo/ships are all done by people in the game, made by the game. The plex is a direct link to IRL and is a MUCH more fragile market then any other one.

  • ViperRum

    As far as I can see, none of these things are against the rules.

    A fool and his plexes are soon parted. There are ways around this that solve what is in effect, a principle agent problem. You act like there is nothing anyone can do. Sure Garmon or somebody like him could insist on payment up front, but anyone who paid him would be a fool.