Poetic Stanziel brings a another view from this Sunday’s article.
Poetic Discourse: Affording All The Things
Reading a bunch of recent complaints from certain large nullsec blocs that they can no longer afford all of their space, that got me to writing a previous post about the validity of those complaints. They struck me as odd, disingenuous, especially after thye just went through a flurry of nullsec expansion, helped along by a manipulated boom in technetium prices. The OTEC boom.
My opinion being, if you can’t afford all of your new space, then you probably own too much of it. And if you want to continue to own all of that new space, then you’re going to have to look to pruning programs or seeking out sources of income that you wouldn’t have had to consider during the boom.
EVE Online is a game of choices. It’s about prioritizing. We see this at every level of the game. Ship fitting, for instance. You cannot simply fit all the things onto your ship of choice. You have to make decisions, prioritize the important over the not-so-important. This module for that module, because your ship being able to do thing A is a tad more important to you than it being able to do thing B.
The same should apply to owning sovereignty and managing the alliance that controls it. What are the priorities of the organization? Is doing thing B more important than doing thing A? And if so, then thing A will have to be cutback or eliminated.
Let’s take Goonswarm Federation as an example. During the last State of the Goonion on September 14 2012, The Mittani stated quite strongly that he felt alchemy should not have been introduced as a solution to high technetium prices without adding in a replacement source of income. In other words, Goonswarm should be able to continue affording all the things. It is unfair that they would now have to start prioritizing and making difficult choices. OTEC made everything very comfortable and cozy, and why should that not continue?
What sorts of things were Goonswarm affording during the technetium boom?
sovereignty, plus expansion
jump bridge network
peacetime ship replacement for all members
super-capital subsidies
PLEX fund and payroll
New Eden-wide bounty program on mining ships (member and non-member program)
expanded wars in Branch, Tenal, Delve, and Tribute.
Basically, during the boom, they were affording all the things, plus some. This is not how it is supposed to be. And I’m sure The Mittani understands this quite well, but for some showmanship and some “Goonswarm is so hard done by” propaganda. Nullsec alliances should have to watch their cashflow, tighten their belts at times. A never-ending fountain of ISK is not what this game is about.
So now, choices have to be made. Perhaps they’ll have to cancel their peacetime ship replacement policy, move to a wartime replacement policy only. Heavens forbid, that pilots may actually have to work like the rest of us for their non-war related hobbies (freighter ganking, general PvP, Blink, etc.). They may actually have to run missions or anomalies or incursions, or *gasp* mine asteroids.
Maybe to earn more, they look to non-sovereignty entities who hold technetium moons and tell them “We have operating costs. You barely have any. We’ll take these moons off your hands, you can go mine neodymium.” Fire up Goonswarm Intelligence to start sussing out all these tech moons that could be helping their cause, not fattening the wallets of folks who don’t want the headache or expense of nullsec.
Alchemy has so far been good for the game. That doesn’t mean there aren’t fundamental problems with technetium (the industry bottleneck), and that there needs to be a grander overhaul of the system. But for now, it brings certain large nullsec alliances back to earth with the rest of us. Your game is going to be a lot more interesting now that you’re once again faced with tough decisions.
***
As a faction warfare player, I’m more than familiar with money trains. I’ve 10B ISK in ships and modules sitting in Egghelende. Another 11B ISK sitting in the wallet. Another 6B ISK in assets, waiting to be sold. And 12B ISK in loyalty points, waiting for a potential T5 cashout. All this due to some kooky financials in the faction warfare system. This mad cash disappears come winter. I’m not going to suggest that CCP replace one money train with another. I’ll certainly miss that train, but I won’t complain in the slightest that it’s been taken away.
Word
this would be a great useful for those people who want to start their own website.
I totally agree with your points. Some of these big alliance have it to good. The % of afk isk they make to stay strong is just amazing. That should be reduced to a fraction of what it is now. So all alliance who want to keep such huge amounts of space, would need to work their ass off to pay for it.
In my own view no alliance should be able to own or even come close to afford holding 1 region.
CCP has got a lot to do to fix this game and make it more challenging and frankly more fair.
how they do that, I have no clue, but fixing the income flow, and logistic in my view would go a long way.
Your game is going to be a lot more interesting now that you’re once again faced with tough decisions.
Sov should cost more,no 1 colaition should rule majority of EVE dooming it to napfest. Cut Coalitions expance down some what by increasing Sov Bills,so alliances/coalitions would have to stay more central,to allow other entities to get into 0.0 or retake space,make 0.0 more fun again,instead of napfest. More people in differing entities in 0.0 is alot more fun for every one involved,more fights,more oppertunities,more challanges = more fun.
Well if you make it cost more so that coalitions cant afford much how would small alliances get into 0.0 which is already a problem. Do you want it to be more barren than it already is?
Well because if the balance is right. The amount of income should be sufficient to cover a general area. The more sov you own the higher the sov bills. Gives smaller alliances a chance to take moderate amount of space and restricts big blobbers to have either or. For example if they wish to expand further than there means it would stretch their budget as is realistic. Or they would have to just pay for sov and go without in other areas. This solves a lot of the noob alliances blobbing in numbers. This remedy brings more fun opportunities and challenges to eve. Too long has entities such as cfc dominated through loo holes that should of been sorted out ages ago.
Agree with truth that makes sence and would bring more people back to 0.0 as well as giving more opportunities to groups of players as well as distancing the big issue of all grouping together to get Benifits without challenge, that is basically what cfc is doing. An obviously needs changing for eve communities benifit and to sustain eve to carry on for many years to come
This is exactly what I have been saying. The Drake blob fest that counters everything with enough numbers is the death of EvE altogether. Small alliance all fighting each other using all the different ship types and even using some skill… is where EvE needs to go to survive.
null sec would be more interesting if it was more competitive. it'd easier for new alliances to go there if the existing ones actually had to work for their isk aside from fighting for their sov. also, industry would get a boost if mining was worth more.
So by some peoples logic, an alliance or coalition that is composed of an appreciable percentage of the entire player base should not be able to control much more space than Joe Schmucaktelly's mining alliance with 25 real members. The people who control space do so because they took it from a weaker foe, and will continue to hold it until they themselves are too weak to hold it. If you don't think that the larger alliances work their asses to keep their space than you have no idea how this game is played. It takes literally thousands of man hours a month to maintain space. Between the logistics of moving billions of cubic meters of moon goo, seeding markets, fueling JB's and POS's, paying sov bills, protecting your space from invasions and other ner-do-wells, maintaining diplomatic relations, balancing the finances, not to mention the monumental task of coordinating thousands of individual Eve players is on par with herding cats high on crystal meth. I know from experience that the CFC alone deals with enough spreadsheets to make some fortune 500 CFO's piss his pants and run screaming in terror. It is a monumental effort that requires close cooperation of hundreds of people. Just look what happened to Goonfleet when one director went on vacation and forgot to pay the bills. One person can accidentally undo what took years and thousands of players to build.
The problem is not that large power blocks control the most space, that's the way it works in real life and the way it should work in Eve. The question we should be asking is how do we get people to stay in smaller, more cohesive groups to prevent the blobs from forming in the first place?
Instead of standing on the side lines bemoaning the plight of the independent player, do something about it. If you don't like the CFC or the HBC, there are plenty of people fighting them right now. Join the effort. Or just profit off of both sides while remaining neutral thanking them for the business.
"The question we should be asking is how do we get people to stay in smaller, more cohesive groups to prevent the blobs from forming in the first place?"
Well idk how about reduce the isk that comes from tech like what this entire article was talking about? The most massive coalitions have always formed around the people that own the moons making way to many billions a month. Back in the day it used to be R64 moons and now it is tech. Ex: BoB, the NC, and now it is Goons. Sure tech should make them some isk but it should be less then R64's and it should be more in line with the rest of the moon minerals.
I would suggest that the cost for maintaining systems increase exponentially once you have a certain number of systems under your control. Hugely so, as to create a drain on your membership. Make that cost so big it filters all the way down to the members, to the point where they don't really want to undock five or six times during a battle just to get popped by NC. again.
No wait. Scratch that. WTH am I saying. Carry on please Goons.
There's plenty of alliances that survive without tech and manage to hold several regions. In the past IIRC RA held something like 8 regions, without any Tech. Even Goons in the past lived in space that had no Tech and they thrived. So even if all of the tech is made worthless, I don't see it as a problem. It's just that tech makes people greedy, stupid and fat. Complacent. They get used to having stupid amounts of isk and if you then take it away they go to trough a withdrawal crisis. Some implode, some don't, but sooner or later they learn to do better with what they have. I don't see why anyone should be guaranteed 'forever and ever' tech stupid level amounts of isk.
Blobbing isn't a mark of a stronger alliance,it is the mark of weak alliances banding together for a safety bubble. Throught that mass numbers safety bubble they are able to eventually defeat better alliances/coalitions. But hell as in whats happening at the moment Dotbros having most fun in EVE kulling CFC,while cfc bleed loss mails in hoardes & shoot structures wololol EPIC.
The weakest fish in the sea form massive schools – CFC are the herring of EVE…LULZ
LOL so true.
confirming I am no longer referring to the "CFC as that, but the Herring Coalition! (that are sardine coalition. herring sounds funnier though….NI)
The analogy is hilarious. I'm with you but what do we call mittens? Charlie the Tuna? Maybe King Herring.
Wikipedia notes that the giant oarfish is called "king of herrings" and "rarely sighted".
Wikipedia notes that the giant oarfish is called "king of herrings" and "rarely sighted".
Sounds exactly like mitani tbh lol
Blobbing happens when alliances are not capable of directly challenging better opponents. So they band coalition of terrible alliances to indirectly take out alliances 10x better skill wise identity wise respect wise than they are. Basically what Is happening with dotbros (Spartans) vs cfc hoarde (Persian slaves)
Depends how you define terrible alliances really. Getting a huge blob of ships together take a fair bit of diplomatic skill and/or isk.
There just fighting in a different style. Elite small groups be wise to consider ways to fight blobs or way they could get there own made if need be.
For example do you have a high sec wing of miners/carebears that you could get in cruisers/battlecruisers? Or perhaps there some other alliances that dislike that blob that's worrying you? Failing that maybe you need some guys in stealth bombers.
That's priceless. Fighting in a different style. Let's rename the blob right now. We're not blobbing we're fighting in a different style. Keep telling yourself whatever you have to. Your still a bunch of no talent fucks.
If it works it works. Plenty of historic examples were a different style of fighting overcome a old one and the old guys considered the other side talentless.
In this case I'm reminded of the effect of the gun on warefare, were a bunch of guys with basic training could quiet effectively kill a bunch of knights who been trained for birth.
Did it mean the well trained profession solider died out? Course not, but they adjusted there combat tactics and got there own bunch of basic trained guys with guns to complement there professionals.
Goon, you're an idiot. You're saying that by making an administrative change (go from blobbing to just joining the same large alliance) somehow 'blobbers' would gain credibility, like you?
So, the UN or NATO are bad combat entities while China is a good example because they have naturally higher numbers?
They *are* playing in a different style. In fact you might say a handicapped style due to the inability to coordinate as intuitively as one larger organization. That effectively makes a win by them even more glorious no? Lots of idiots in one alliance vs. lots of idiots in many alliances acting as one alliance… symantics.
just because an alliance is mainly made up of good pvpers does not mean that an alliance is good.
if it came to pvp-skill and vet-bitternes I guess you could say that A or DOT or PL are the best but If we are talking about which alliance is the best in EVE (the game) than you have to agree that EVE consists of mining, missioning, isk making, sov, politics… erm… intelligence and yes, yes, your precious pvp and skills at it. The best alliance in the game of eve must be the one that achieves it's goals best and maintains itself in a way that gives confidence that it will keep achieving the goals it sets… based on the kind and amount of propaganda coming from goons and test and the influence map I think its fair to say that they (as alliances) may not be the best at pvp but in The Game of Eve are in a league of its own and the fact that raiden innit joined and Pl remains in HBC goes to show that their dominance is not threatened and A will likely within a year or less and russians in general will be on the loosing side for months and months to come
No i don't agree but i think they current cashflows in the alliances is F*ked up
the flow of cash should come from the bottom up.
*The Corps should own the space
*The Corps should want to be in an alliance for protection
*The Corps have to pay the alliance for the protection
*A Corps should be able to be in one or many alliances
*An Alliance should be able to be in one or many Coalitions
*A Coaltiion should have ingame tools to handle stuff in the coalition
*The game should be able to force a Corp to make a decision if they are in two Alliances or Coalitions that go to war that they are part of both. <Side A> <Neither> <Side B>
* The cost of holding system should be modified by adjent systems so holding 5 system spread out is more expensive then holding 5 adjent system.
* The cost of holding a system should be modified by the number of system held by the corp
* A Coaltion/Alliance can tax its members from several perspective fitting the coalition/alliance like participation ratio in fleets. Logistic work done for the alliance. etc.
ok that was alot of ranting but its my wish list for eve.
If coalitions had in game tools to "handle stuff", the players would form another layer above that. Before alliances were brought into the game, players effectively had them anyway. After alliances were given tools to "handle stuff" players started forming coalitions. Eve doesn't need to recognize coalitions.
10,000 v 25. A 25 man group can hold by your accounts 1 system taking it to a simple numbers game. So 10,000 holds 400. I can guarantee most 25 man corps don't have cap replacement funds, full fledged ship replacement funds, etc etc. The game didn't make it hard to maintain finances, overindulgence did.
Question since you want it to make it more "real"
In which world does a destroyer class ship (or a group of destroyers) could take out a carrier?
(Please note that destroyers are one of the most advanced ships in the modern warfare)
In which world should something else that a capital ship be able to take out Titans?
In which world a CAPITAL ship could be destroyed by smaller ships?
Oh, I forgot, you didnt like that and you cried a lot when Titans could take out your petty fleets,
So please tell me Mr. Hard-core-player-who-loves-reality why did you ask for the nerf of your enemies weapons and we are not allowed to ask for the nerf of your weapon, which in the end you should be able to handle such a nerf if you are who you say you are?
in which world can you repair structural damage on a carrier without entering a drydock?
Justchecking,
Quick bit of naval history for you.
Torpedo boats have been able to take out capital ships since the invention of the torpedo. Capital ships have low-traversal main guns, so got more secondary batteries.
An entire ship class, called "torpedo boat destroyers", also gets designed to counter torpedo boats.
Later, aircraft start to carry anti-capital torpedos as well, leading to even more screening small ships and secondary weapons.
So, in short, STFU noob. The real one is the one where destroyer class ships can, will and do take out carriers.
TLDR any of it just -neg 1
Whoah! A sound post on EN24?
who would have thought?!
Sarcasm off:
yeah the problem is not big alliance being big, the problem is the AFK income that lets them bloat all over the place while alliances smaller than them can barely keep their head above the water.
And also, CSM needs a restart. The meeting minutes is just ample proof that they are no longer connected to the game any more.
CSM is just a game for some old vets to get free holiday tickets around the world.
pah let them go bust the game has been dull for the last 18 months anyway
at least we can afford a real news site.
this article is all bulshit : CFC ic motherfucking rich .
on the other hand ,
one of the old -A- corp is diying and one of their last active director leaves taking 60B with him , not a word on EN24…
nulli leaves tribute and attacks FAIL in detorid , not a word in EN24…
gypsy band leaves tribute an goe back to curse , nor a word on EN24…
HBC is harrasing ROL in parangon soul and -A- is not helping them, not a word in EN24 …
Did that whole campaign INK is doing ever get reported? It'd be cool to read about that as well.
The site has a certain outlook I guess. There's multiple places to get information now so it's not such a big deal, really.
HAHAHAH so much BLShit.
@ -A- theft. Your talking about SSE where an old vet emo'd because of the other directors were on holiday or in the process of moving. Only 60B was stolen (mostly mods and a nyx) but they have enough. Its just that; as he was part of the corp for 3 years and a RL friend to most people, we feel kinda hurt by him stealing our stuff.
@ nulli. even i didnt know that. Seems they pussied out again. They will be in HS within a month i guess.
@ ROL. -A- has offered help but ROL wants to do it allone, as they think crying wolf is a bad thing.
omg what a dellusional rtard…. Nulli didn't pussy out – nor have they ever. Reality is, CFC is not entertaining enough so we have a little side project/contract is all… You keep blobbing and we keep wiping the floor with you – not much entertainment in that so we needed a little distraction, got an offer and jumped on it… nothing more.
Although it's possible that nulli might move down there eventually. I don't see them hanging out in the back end of vale forever.
Mad Goon is mad that he can't beat the Zealot fleet with his soon-to-be-nerfed drakeblob.
nope : ROL is complaining about -A- not helping them in their last alliance meeting… its public.
who is bulshiting who ?
Then why not write about it and submit it?
You realise this is a news syndication site right?
I don't have a solution for the Tech problem yet.
But:
Connect the price of sov in a system to the index levels (military/industry only, not strategic). The lower the index, the higher the price.
How would that solve anything?
Alliances / coalitions already hold vast tracts of un-upgraded space (military and industry at least) for it's one or two moons, strategic importance or no other reason than they liked to kick the fat kid who used to live there before too much.
Your proposed change would mostly be a disservice to alliances like your own (assuming you have correctly portrayed your true allegiance).
It solves the massive amounts of space that are empty of use, if your cost was reduced as your indexes raised it would really promote alliances keeping space used and not just hoarded.
It would reward the alliances that actually use their space and not just have it just to claim endless tracts of space.
why do i get the feeling alliances would just own all the good system and abandon the rest,
i.e they might take 4 systems in this constellation and ignore the rest and 2 in another, maybe because of stations sec status e.t.c.
that would actually be a good thing.
That way smaller alliances would be able to claim abandoned systems or alliances would be forced to get active renters that take care of their systems and keep them high.
On the other hand that would make some alliances BLEED (See test and their state of economics at the moment) and force them to either get ACTIVE members or if they are indeed active (Dont think so but ok) they would have to spread them through most of their systems.
All in all its surprisingly good suggestion that could actually work and force alliances and corps THINK when and were to fight but it is soooo much unlikely to happen since it would hurt some specific alliances that CCP would never do something like that.
yes but keep in mind if a large alliance takes 2 systems in a constellation you cant take an adjacent system as they'll just take it back again!!, and if they don't they'll just camp it! and destroy pos's so the system would end up costing you, DRF had large amount of systems unclaimed in the middle of drone region, every now and then a player would claim it.. day later back to being unclaimed. TBH i think step 1 is to make systems useful in some way, in that regard what are several activities you can do in a system, that would be mean alliance would need less space.. how ever i know it would not fix coalitions!!!, i commonly like checking regions and checking on NPC kills in the last 24h to see which systems are being used for ratting!
how much does solar fleet use there territory! for 1k members they have alot!..
It would force groups to tighten into smaller areas, maintaining the levels would take work, but those who maintain the work benefit from cheaper space. Those who hoarde with systems empty for days suffer. I like it.
Eh token. CVA guy get back to being fail. At PvP and protecting ur waste/water. Treatment plant aka provi, and let the grown ups speak.
Bets on this is a grunt that just reads the news, listens to the big guys talk, and suddenly thinks he has an opinion.
Agreed.
price fixing really?
how about flipping the other way and making it reward based by increasing the quality and quantity of minning in beter space.
why is every fix in this game punitive.
fixing missles by making them suck more
fixing guns in the past by making them track worse
fixing ships by making them fly slower
fixing the economy by making you get less.
you want eve to be more real more hard core make shit escalate. make somthing better to counter what is OP stop balancing shit by making shit worse.
america makes a stealth bomber and everyone starts making better radar. thats how eve should work not america makes a stealth bomber everyone complains so they put a radar becon on it.
Poetic makes some good points about how Goons/TEST shouldn't be complaining and
acually tells them how the grunts could become space rich like thier directors:
I see is Poetic has 12 BILLION ISK IN LOYALTY POINTS
Probably mostly collectd semi AFK twirling around a button.
o.0
I'm guessing WHers have same amounts of assets & ISK overflowing… us ex-Incursioners could only look on in envy at the bonanzas those guys have while everyone still screams we make too much in HI SEC lol. Yet CCP is still drinking the kool aide from the NULL TROLLS in the forums crying that HI SEC needs to be nerfed into non existance.
Honestly high sec shouldn't give nearly as much as it does. Stop whining
Honestly the nerf HI SEC income whines are just a stealth make HI SEC into LO/NULL SEC w/o the realization that the subs losses would crush EVE
Hisec does need to be nerfed into the ground.
I would love to see hisec nerfed into oblivion myself. For different reasons than you though.
Only when subs dropped substantially and CCP had far less money to develop the game would you finally understand. The damage would be irreparable though so it won't happen.
hisec should give enough for an active pilot to make enough in a month with reasonable work (not no life slaving work) to cover a plex. no matter how many people buy plex with isk, there are always people that will sell plex, there are always people that will buy shiney toys over plex.
I wanna see that when plex prices are at about 580 millions each….
Considering that you also need a ship and its ammo and other modules that would make what?
700 millions per month so in a few months time you will be able to replace your ship or even get a better ship?
I dont know why but as things are now I think its pretty hard for someone to make 700 millions per month while spending 1-2 hour per day ( considering chat and other things is less than that)
check Jita prices bro… sold 2 last night for 585 mil each
Neither should AFK orbiting a beacon @ 50km.
Can someone from CCP give this guy an increased incursion payout so he'll SHUT THE FUCK UP?
You're fucking retarded kill yourself
By this I mean chamber a round into your gun, put the muzzle in your mouth and pull the fucking trigger
The tards in ISN are claiming more than 100mil/hr in incursions now, why are you still whining?
The armour Incursion community while not completely dead isall but dead. Even the shield Incursion communities are a shadowof what they once where and are shrinking. CCP took a successfull expansion & nerfed it into near non existance with asingle patch.
NULL lo SEC communities are completely dead now.
The DEVs don't have a clue about what the fuck they are doing in those parts of Eve they never play in.
What makes alliances butthurt is that once it looks like you will gain an advantage CCP changes the deck chairs. First with the system nerfs, then ship nerfs, and now material nerfs. I want my Dramiel to once again bring fear to all frigs again. I want juicy spawns in systems that I have farmed for weeks. Finally. I want to be able to make something over here and sell it over there for whatever price i can get. Everyone that thinks that CCP sti8cking it to the CFC are looking at this the wrong way.
sov tears (aka. pl/goontard/testicle tears)….. best tears
Take it a step further, maintenance fees, just say supercaps fuel needs are so large that no sustainable source has been found. If there is no fuel in the 'operations fuel bay' modules start to shut off.
A post without mentioning EvE Uni and how shit they are??
Who are you and what have you done with Poetic?!
stop the pos moonmining and let it be done by an actual player with a special moonminingship and redistribute the moons over all space so it is not grouped in a small area would solve alot. No more passive income.
The game is not broken because someone own more SOV, better ships, and has more isk than you. many smaller alliances and corps do quite well for themselves. Find YOUR niche in the game and do it well. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the vast riches wormhole alliances accumulate. Billions of isk harvested every day and the pimped out ships would make most goon pilots green with envy. They pay no SOV or upgrades, just farm them sleepers. I have no animosity against them and I am sure there is more to their existence that simply farming sleeper anoms, but is there too much T3 material? And are they becoming too rich?