Ripard Teg takes a jab at the vast cruiser re-balance implications.

Jester’s Trek: Sow the Wind

In looking at the cruiser re-balancing, I’m going to start with a bunch of seemingly unrelated statements, then tie them all together.  Stay with me.  This is one of those posts.

If there’s one thing that EVE players of all stripes are obsessed with, it’s DPS.  That’s the first (and sometimes, the only) thing we want to know about our ships: how much DPS does it do?  When we build a new ship, first we maximize its DPS.  Then we look for ways to improve the range and time in which it projects DPS, or the likelihood it will apply DPS through tracking.  Then we add a bunch of drones to improve it still farther.  And usually only after all of this is done do we start to think about how we’re going to tank the ship.

It’s the pretty rare EVE ship where we start with a tank and then add the other stuff onto that.  Drakes.  Dominixes.  Fleet Command ships.  Capital ships.  The occasional bait ship.  But that’s about it.  With the majority of players and ships, DPS far outweighs tank.  A lot of ship classes in EVE aren’t flown at all either because they can’t generate DPS or they can’t sufficiently project it.  That’s number one.

Second, I’ll remind you of something that I said about the Ares FOTW last week: “Quite often, a beginner will be killed in a T1 frigate in a single volley without even realizing they’ve made a mistake or what that mistake was.  That makes learning from one’s mistakes a lot tougher.  Sure, you can lose a dozen Rifters, Incursi, or Merlins casually, but if you don’t learn why you lost them, you’re not going to get better at the game.”  Keep that in mind.  It’s about to become important.

Number three: one of the nicest EVE players I ever played the game with was a guy in his mid-60s in LAWN.  He was retired… a relaxed, friendly guy who was apparently way ahead of his generation in terms of computer savvy.  Still, he admitted freely that his reflexes weren’t what they used to be and he appreciated the fact that EVE was a game where one’s reflexes were secondary to ones skills, tactics, and instincts.

Finally, compare and contrast that to some of the more recent EVE trailers, starting with the Dominion trailer through the Crucible and “I Was There” trailers.  Whenever CCP shows EVE from an individual pilot’s perspective, there’s generally some attempt to show the game as fast-paced when those of us who play it know that it’s usually anything but.

Reading through the threads on the new “attack” cruisers and “EW” cruisers (and even the “existing destroyer re-balance” thread), the thing that has been striking me is how CCP is falling into line with how players look at their ships.  Virtually every weapon is seeing its grid requirements reduced and ships across the board are either getting additional grid, additional low-slots and CPU (which will invariably go to damage mods), or both.  Across a wide number of ships, utility bonuses are being dropped in favor of damage bonuses or damage projection bonuses.

Granted, we haven’t seen the “combat” cruisers yet but the “combat” frigates provide some clues as to CCP’s thinking.  And it’s pretty consistent with what’s above.  Way back in March when this journey started, we were told there would be “combat”, “attack”, and “bombardment” ships.  Later, “bombardment” went away but it seems to be making a come-back in a big way.  By the time CCP is done with it the Tristan, previously the premiere get-in-close-and-slug-it-out ship, is going to have exactly two turrets and a bigger drone bay than most cruisers.  “Stand off” and “skirmish” are replacing tank.  “You will also see that the direction we’re going with these frigs means that our plans have changed somewhat since the dev blog a few months ago,” CCP Fozzie says, rather blandly.

Yeah.  Got that, thanks.

“Shield-tanking Gallente ship” was a joke at Alliance Tournament IX.  But I strongly suspect the Thorax is going to be the most commonly shield-tanked ship in EVE by the time 2013 starts.  Those Thorax low-slots, meanwhile, are going to be damage and projection, projection and damage, DPS DPS DPS.  Armor tanking is for… well… someone.  Somewhere.  Go away and stop bothering me.  I’m trying to fit my ship here.

Net result of all of this?  With all of this new DPS, I think we’re going to see this round of ship re-balancing start to deliver on that implied promise of EVE being a bit more action-packed and — dare I say it — twitchy.  “Good!” I can hear a lot of you saying out there and yeah, I don’t suppose I disagree too much.  But one of the things that EVE’s always had going for it is the tactical nature of play.  If you are primaried by an opposing fleet, you usually have some time to decide on the best course of action.  The amount of time you’re going to have for that is going to be reduced now: the ships firing at you will be able to fit bigger guns, with more damage mods, firing at longer range and with better tracking.

The industrialists will be happy.  More stuff to build and replace.

But as EVE players realize this, will we see even more risk aversion?  Will we see even more unwillingness to get into a fight because once you start to lose, you’ll tend to keep losing, and keep losing even faster than before?  That’s going to be a big question in 2013, I’m thinking.  We’ll have to see what sort of whirlwind CCP reaps from sowing the wind.

Next up, Canes and Drakes.

Ripard Teg

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  • Surol

    makes me wonder if they are going to change dynamics by ship class. frigs utility crusers gank and BS tank.

    frigs tackling and jamming with crusers anchored around BS wing commanders or command ships would be neat to see. call them brass ball fleets.

    or you could be right and its just a normalized slugfest on its way.

    • -A-

      Think its going to end all the same as the Trashers now. Cheap 40+ T1 hulls suiciding on your nice T3 ships.

      Fuck it that you killed 30 and we killed 3. Your aut 1,5 Bill and SPoints. We lost 300 mil that is mostly insured.

      IMho: when tank leaves for dps, its all about the suicide dps on the field. Oh and say goodby to all freigthers in HS.

    • I'm pretty sure cruisers will still be the primary utility ships. Frigs have some utility (beyond tackle) but not as much as cruisers can support. Dessies main purpose is to kill frigs (and it seems to support dust troops now too.) Seems to me, bc's and bs's will still be the main 'ship-of-the-line' ships for fleet combat, but they're trying to balance everything so frigs and cruisers wont be blaped and die.

      There is a lot of rage on the forums about CCP nerfing some players chosen aspect of the game but I'm really glad to see the dev's are not flinching from the road they are taking. I expect to see more rock paper scissors and less "tengu tengu tengu!"

  • Htrag

    shield tank thorax? I know I'm old school, but CCP loves to make me barf when they re balance stuff.

    • Ashesofempires

      I doubt CCP had that in mind when they rebalanced the ship, but it's definitely going to happen. More EHP, faster, more agile, more dps at the cost of no utility and higher sig radius.

      • There will be a fair amount of armor 'rax too, especially now that td will effect missiles.

  • buggrit

    Considering also the price of new stuff, after they deal with the FW isk-making abuses, risk aversion will be playing a part.
    Hurts a lot more to lose a ship now.

  • Pale Blue Dot

    At present there's maybe the odd raised eyebrow when I armour tank a thorax. Come winter it'll be open laughter.

    Some opinions are reckoning the Vexor will get the 10% rep bonus the incursus got. As long as they don't take away the drone bonus for it that'd be fine.

    • Heart Shields

      And with the support frigs, you've got FRIGATES able to rep 125 dps each (before resistances). Granted, that's with small faction mods, but those mods only go for like 5-10m each. If wormhole pilots ever had fun with a group of RR Sleeper frigs, you're gonna LOVE player RR frigs! Don't forget to throw in some skirmish warfare links for lower signature radius!

  • http://www.facebook.com/brian.c.hinds Brian C Hinds

    ya i agree with htrag …now canes and drakes are going to get fucked ..they might as well get rid of missles altogether and neft guns some more so we can have orbital fights that will last for hours..whoo hoo looking forward to more ccp bullshit

    • what?

      Stop ya crying, people were calling for drake nerfs for years… its about time it happened

      Goons "Make noobs useful" ship is getting a correction and its good for eve

      • bob

        Yes but they haven't just nerfed Drakes they have nerfed a whole line of ships. They should have just nerfed the Drake and the Tengu and left the missles alone.

        • Heavy missiles were op too, if there are ships that use hm's that need buffs, they will buff them on an individual level but they need a solid foundation to work from first. So quit your whining.

      • Pilot

        That is true, before cruiser boost, goons neded to outnumber HAC + Recon Gang 5 times to have chance to succeed. Now, outnumbering 2 times will be quite OK, 200 mil HAC will have very small advantage over 10mil cruiser. That is definitely "good".

  • http://evedreams.wordpress.com/ dreamersofreality

    gallente were supposed to be able to use the 3rd type of tanking, HULL. And is why all of there ships have more hull HP then any other race but hull tanking fell off to the wayside with far too few mods for it and active reps being a joke. As such Gallente have always been gimped a little when it comes to tanking in genreal, there next best tank is armor and they really don't need damage mods all that much. Since most Gal ships have damage bonuses built into the hull, meaning your DPS will be high to start off with. Also from the tie over from Hull tanking which uses both lows and mids, is why there ships are the best balanced out between mids and lows. Vs amarr who have very few mids but tons of lows, a true armor tanking race or caldari who have lots of mids but few lows, again a true shield tanking race. Minmatar are much like gallente and have no "home" tanking capabilities, some ships are shield, others are armor, cane/typhoon are armor ships (yes you nubs canes are ARMOR ships and are damn good at it too).

    still waiting to see what CCP dose do to these ships.

    • DarthNefarius

      Gallente does seem to always get the shaft

  • idiotpolice

    Paying CCP to tweak the database values on existing ships. Good waste of bad money? Should I really not just spend this money on pop and crisps. All seams a bit clueless to me. With the added of all we are paying for is buffing cruisers which have been in the game forever what are CCP really doing? Smoking malbro light and drinking vodka whilst laughing at us. I intend to disguise myself as an Icelandic male prostitute and find out. Anyone got fake tan and a mankini I can borrow. I'll scrape the gusset out of the mankini after honest.

  • Pilot

    “Quite often, a beginner will be killed in a T1 frigate in a single volley without even realizing they’ve made a mistake or what that mistake was. That makes learning from one’s mistakes a lot tougher. "
    ———
    Highly intelligent players think before they start doing something, they are aware of potential threats and try to avoid them.

    Smart players are joining alliances where they can receive advices from more experienced players and are looking for opportunities to learn from those who know what to do and how to do it.

    Stupid players are joining TEST and claim they don't care about losses.

    So I believe your concern about learning difficulties is irrelevant. Certain part of players who wish to learn will find their way, and those in TEST, goon and others like them, don't want to learn anyway. Of course, there are some who adopted TEST "we are the coolest bros" psychology but still want to learn – the way for them is see through TEST faggy approach and change environment, but there is no ingame feature that could be modified to affect one's judgement.

    • Goon since 07

      How many "highly intelligent and aware" players mostly have played the game for a while and have some experience.

      I remember my first times in 0.0, years ago. With the lag bag then you were dead before grid loaded. Real good learning right there……….

      • Dabigredboat FU

        Theres not a huge amount of players in EVE that want to seemingly learn anymore. Most are in allinaces such as NC. BL. IRC Free alliances,they who join the northern war on Dotbros side are learning 10 fold about eve PVP & tactics.Goons learn very little,the have same tactics as always blob. Only thing Goons seem to be doing is trying to adapt ship types,but as we all know,you can get every1 into a better ship type,but if they are shit at the game they ar still going to be shit in that better ship type. In other words,can polish a turd,but its still a turd.

      • NAPFEST

        All Intelligent players are in free alliances from CFC. Which proves that theres not a lot of them left,as CFC's ze blob is blue to 2 3rd of 0.0 wololololololololololol

        • Hunter

          One day, not far from today, CFC and HBC will conquer all 0.0. They will all fly T1 shit, HAC ships will become useless, because 200 mil HAC will be counterable with 2×10 mil cruisers.
          The only thing left for PVP will be cloaky camping of farming systems. On that day, CFCHBC will persuade CCP to make cloaked ships scannable with directional scan. Nullsec will become friendly and finally accessible, truly for everyone. On that day I will quit playing EVE.

          • When you leave, can I have your stuff?

      • Sounds like you learned 0.0 lag sucks. :) I do have a similar experience though. I had an account that was just a few days old, someone from a null alliance recruited me so I flew 70 jumps in my condor to join in on a fight and promptly got dispatched by a brick squad drake. It's okay though, one of my first kills is Darius III's flycatcher and pod :) (I think he was the ceo at the time.)

    • Guy

      I'd gladly throw away a frigate to get a decent kill. There's nothing wrong with the cheap tackle running in and trying to lock stuff down.

      Besides, you get better by doing stuff and learning through your losses – not by hanging around and waiting until you're presented with a zero risk opportunity

    • TEST

      WHY U MAD AT TEST BRO?

  • Mach

    Rebalancing T1 cruisers means we will have nice PVP machines for a low cost. Frigates are cool, but can't really compete with battlecruisers and battleships, which is normal.

    However, those new T1 cruisers will compete with battlecruisers and battleships. Not in 1vs1s, of course, but still.

    When you can fit a nice 650 DPS Thorax, with 30k EHP, very good tracking and a capbooster for about 30M, that's what I call a nice, cheap PVP machine.

    I can't really EFT warrior with the other cruisers for now, but I'm pretty sure this is the time where peoples who used not to PVP will start looking at it with all those new cheap-yet-effective cruisers.

  • Hengroen

    If ships are going to have even more dps then allow logis to lock on quicker. Other wise once you start losing there is no way you are going to come back. Just going to mean even more blobs and tidi.

  • EW Guy

    "If there’s one thing that EVE players of all stripes are obsessed with, it’s DPS. That’s the first (and sometimes, the only) thing we want to know about our ships: how much DPS does it do?"

    Griffin. Blackbird. Scorpion.
    Bring all the dps you want, and cry alone while your ship is unable to fire a single shot.

    EW ftw

    • M1k3y

      You mean Falcon, Falcon and Falcon.

      And don't forget the Falcon.

    • DarthNefarius

      "Griffin. Blackbird. Scorpion"

      Huh is CCP going o rebalance these too?

      • Yes, all ships will be getting touched. Some will be nerfed, some will be buffed, and hopefully ecm will die in a fire.

  • HeartGoodFights

    This is going to be great for small gang PVP.
    This is going to be horrible for blob on blob fights.
    5 Thorax's for the hull of a t2? Cruiser?

    I also like that it makes the barrier for entry into PvP a little lower. If we all follow the rules, "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" and it turns out you can afford to lose a lot more, you will have that many more people fighting.

    They may not be quality fights, but, like all changes, you have to see what happens after the dust settles.

    Personally, I wouldn't mind having an alt where I didn't care about the losses on my KB now that these changes be on their way.

  • OldxPlayer

    Most 'intelligent players' aren't players anymore.

  • short sided..

    What everybody is seeming to forget is they aren't fucking done with changes.. this is first changes of many changes.. did everybody forget they are going up the pyramid and starting on the bottom? T1 frig/cruiser buffs and a few BC changes and missile changes are the first of many.. of course T2 ships seem weak right now, cus they haven't been balanced yet inline with current changes. Also, they haven't done BCs yet, just initial tweaks..got to look a little further into Eves future than just this winter.

    • Some people also seem to not realize the way they're balancing the game will not be 'isk = power'. Greater amounts of isk, in general, will open up new class (ship) types, but if you're a moron, a newbie in an atron will still be able to own your face. EVE isn't a theme-park, you don't get to be the hero of the story, every ship on the battle field will matter.

      And this next comment isn't aimed at the person above me, but all you t3 whine spamming faggots can die in a fire.

  • Blap

    LOL i love it how people are saying that all the "Intelligent" players join alliances like NCdot and bros, or AAA.. and all the tards join HBC/CFC, and then point out that if the new players where smart they wouldnt join CFC/HBC… New flash… most "New" players dont meet the REQUIRED recruiting standards of the "Elite PvP alliance" so they look at it as… hey i can pub it up in high sec for another year to get the correct amount of SP, or i can join HBC/CFC now, get in to 0.0 and live in relative safety and pvp when i want to.. Then you all bitch about blobing… lol

    • Bittervet

      Blap,

      Pretty much.

  • pew pew

    CCP should try putting neutron blasters on a Moa. Why is hybrids left without love?

  • unsatisfied reader

    In order to lose another must win. In order to be an auther one must have readers. If no one.trys.there is no win or lose or shit articles to be written and read.

  • naussica

    Kitsune