Hardcore Casual is Syncaine’s long standing blog covers both Eve and non-Eve issues with an outside the box perspective. One of my favorite site to read not only for the good commentary, but also for the great variety in it, visit it here.
Hardcore Casual: The highsec Player does Not Exist
I like this post by Jester about highsec refining and production, and it brings up an aspect of the game that I think many misunderstand: the highsec player. Or rather, that “the highsec player” does not exist as a single entity. In my opinion there are two distinct groups of players who occupy high-sec space in EVE: those who enjoy highsec life itself, and those who are in highsec because it’s the best place to be for their needs.
The first group can’t (at least through pure game mechanics changes) be moved out of highsec into low/null/WH space. The only place they will move is to another game if forced, and much if not all anti-highsec arguments fail to recognize this. Simply put, if you make highsec too undesirable, these players will not make the move to other areas, they will simply leave. They enjoy highsec for what it is, a mostly non-PvP space devoid of the troubles that plague other areas, be it random PvP roams, sov-loss, WH invasions, whatever. They like the game CCP has created in highsec.
How large this group is I’m not sure, but I’d be willing to bet it’s substantial. Furthermore, while this group has no interest in other areas of EVE, this does not mean they simply take up space and don’t influence low/null/WH space. They do, and in many ways. Be it filling up markets, producing goods, buying PvE-based goods, or any number of smaller impacts, highsec players ‘count’ just as much as the average Goon or AHARM member in the grant scheme of EVE. They also need content updates like everyone else, and I hope CCP is aware of this (I’d argue that the CSM is not, just based on what I’ve read from them).
The second group in highsec are those who would be or are interesting in other aspects of EVE, but live or operate in highsec because it’s the best location for what they want to accomplish. As Jester accurately points out, in many ways, highsec is better than all other spaces for certain activities, and so those who intend to take the path of least resistance find themselves in highsec. This is where the design flaw exists.
When Incursions where overpaying (or were perceived to be overpaying, depending on who you believe), those who wanted to generate ISK with the least resistance ran highsec Incursions, even if they were nullsec alliance members or lowsec pirates. Yet even at this point, Incursion income still did not top C6 WH income, which is why for those willing to take the risks and deal with the troubles (not the path of least resistance) the space was still worthwhile. Had Incursions been as imbalanced as highsec production, few if any pilots would be running C6 sleeper sites, and everyone interested in making ISK would own a specifically fit Nightmare.
The key to moving this second group out of highsec is not to crush highsec itself, but to make the other spaces offer rewards equal to their risks. If production is harder in lowsec because of pirates, it should also be better when done successful, much like C6 WH sites are compared to lvl4 highsec missions or, to a lesser degree, Incursions. Nullsec ores vs highsec ores is an attempt at this, but due to mineral values and the risk/reward ratio, things are not working as well as they should. The same goes for nullsec PvE content, or lowsec PI.
If the areas of the game that are deemed not worthwhile get a boost, the players who currently operate in highsec would move, much like they have with the current imbalance around Faction Warfare sites. At the same times, those with no interest in non-highsec would continue to play and enjoy the game they currently have. The key to any solution is to influence the second group, without crushing the first.
(And as I’ve personally experienced, with the right social structure, motivation, and incentive, even some of those “highsec-only” players can learn to expand their horizons, which I think long-term is why EVE has been so successful.)
- Syncaine
Are you advocating a buffed lowsec? If so, I don't fully get the argument for beefing up lowsec. Seems to me all that stands to accomplish is invite smaller null sec alliances back into lowsec to suck on some breastmilk to get fat again before they head out. I really think a designed mix of dangers can be employed in highsec without compromising the safety of nullsec.
I grow tired of complaints of mining buffs and carebears in general. The complainers are generally null sec players with highsec alt industrialists and scammers to fuel their war efforts. its like American politicians who shake their fists in defiance to stimulus spending and hold their hands out when noone is looking… or something like that… weak metaphor but you get my point.
That said I would love to see elements of danger introduced to hisec. And not something that can be farmed… But not a free reward for game trolls either. What it is I don't know but something that ticks off everyone in favor of noone would be getting somewhere.
Buffing low sec gives a transition space where people can get used to being shot at while making more isk. That's the transition people need.
-10
Let's make all null . low sec as high . That will make people move….
If someone dosn,t like null don't force it….
Can ccp say how many low null chars have high sec indy, farming alts ???? 80% 90% ??? of them
its prolly 7… What does it matter where anyone wants to play?
Despite ccp'tars wishful thinking , highsec player does exist, and he doesnt give a shitt for "game changes".
And why's that? Beacuse there will be someone that needs isk, and highsec DO "players" have it. And highsec players moto is: "ty for my new PC ccp"
WTF did you just say… Ill bet you dont even know.
What a fucking idiot.
Are u saying u bought a pc with RMT?
And allaroundsurround, and car, 2bedapartment and occasional blowjob
And u idiot
…. happy living in eve
allaroundsurround? I bet a lot muslims have one of those.
What the legitimate fuck did I just read?
Apart from the incoherent ramblings…..
so, what you are saying is that highsec players are mostly RMTers?
" without compromising the safety of nullsec. " Wow. Says it all doesn't it?
Let's talk about the elephant in the room. Nullsec is possibly the safest place to be and make money if you are in the big alliances. Last time I checked it was still passive moongoo income in spite of supposed nerfs which didn't even drive the price down to last year. Since when is nullsec supposed to be nullbear Disneyland.
I guess all the focus on "fixing" highsec which IS supposed to be safe by design is because the safest richest and increasingly most boring place to be is exactly where it shouldn't be – nullbearland. Ruled by one great ubberalliance with roflstomp fights with smaller increasingly rare fights with smaller alliances. Maybe it's time designers looked at that monopoly and breaking it up not just bandaids or focus on highsec.
Easier said than done my friend. I have yet to hear any credible way of accomplishing this.
Remove titan bridging and jump bridges would be a start. It would at the very least break up larger coalitions as their force projection capabilities will be diminished. Being able to move from one region to another 3 regions over in under 20 mins is why you see coalitions the size they are now. If they were forced to always deploy close to their enemy then the back ends of their space would be wide open. You couldn't simply move hundreds of people around instantly. Divide and conquer.
Yes you can. It's called a Jump Clone. Get rid of those, too, and maybe your vision would work.
With the 24 hour timer on jump clones, you could very effectively strand a large coalition of pilots hours away with a fake assalt (or even a coordinated assalt from allies). It also makes it a lot harder to get forces back into action after first ship is poped. Throw in the ability to use some choke points for reinforcements and you've got the possibility of asymetric warfare… the one thing that could actually allow non-blob alliances to have a good chance of grinding down blob alliances.
they would need to rebuff titans for aoe doomsdays if they removed the jump portal. they are a 120 billion isk mobile jump bridge
null sec is "safe" because players made it that way.
Not because some magic NPC force comes to save you.
Your reward for better organization is moolah.
it is safe because all the players are in high sec
MM then who are those afk bombers and roams that come to my ratting system everyday? Dont be lazy and cry you have to make 20 jumps to get to some nice ratting systems.
I agree with the analysis. In addition to looking at risk vs. reward I also believe that the entry barriers, or rather exit barriers out of hisec need to be looked at. Many venture to a new, dangerous place, lose big and never return. Life outside hisec is very different and by making the transition easier and less risky hisec dwellers might try getting their feet wet, and enjoy it.
the transition will be wonderful when you are making all kinds of isk in low or null, instead of fagging it in hi
why don't they buff nullsec so the hi sec peeps like it more. make the small and mod grav site into low end producing ore's only. make the outposts cheaper to upgrade. etc.
I will never understand. I know becouse I have desperately tried.
Nullsec and Lowsec-centric players are always 'Come out and plaaayaaaaay!' i.imgur.com/lONmU.gif to the Highsec players.
And frankly the Highsec players are like, "I… um.. I am hater. What you realy mean is: come out and be fodder for my ambushes. Come out and pay me money so you can work."
Wishing outloud or in text that Highsec, or any other playstyle for that matter, that doesn't match your own would stop existing is re-tarded.
you faggots should get nerfed, it won't be that bad just a bit of taxes and you are already bitching, lube up and relax it's just the tip
lol you sad sad bitch. You think I play in Highsec? That's frankly adorable.
uh duh i dunno i thought you was posting like a cunt bitch so yeah
lol pathetic.
look at you faggy -1 me poo poo
it may be just the tip but you still gonna taste the shit in your mouth
Stupid idiots like you shouldn't vote. Ruin the carebears and noobs, ruin the game. Besides the game – fuck you, they're my clients and pay for my shit.
the highsec player does exist and are made up from the husks of the alliances we crushed
FA couldnt crush a wet paperbag
You are correct. Crushing wet paper bags does not break them. Tearing them into tiny pieces is the way to go. Scissors work, too, in a pinch (if you'll pardon the pun).
:FA:
Highsec needs to have an easier transition to low and null.
Lowsec needs to remain a place where skill and aggressivity count more than blap capitals. Also, better money making.
Nullsec needs money and power to come from players, not moons. It also needs small-scale roams to be relevant, and some of the risk everyone says it has and everyone knows it hasn't. Its safe space except at the edges of the power blocks.
All the brain dead idiots who say highsecers must be forced to low, null and pvp need to be laughed at for the cowards they are. Thats nothing but the wet dreams of weaklings who get butt-fucked by real pvpers and want easy, unexperienced prey to fill their epeen. The non-pvp crowds are where they are not forced into a playstyle.
Push them, they don't go where you want; they leave and so does their subscription money and the lovely plexes they buy for real money in exchange for moon isk.
Why are people so retarded they'll try to kill the goose every fucking time?
lowsec is good isk making 1.2 bill – 2 bill easily from 1 6/10 complex that spawns pretty regularly
Its a no-man's land. You want it to be good enough that people will go there, and other people will go hunt them out.
Basically – start increasing the payouts or incursions or whatever until you see entire fleets form up in battle order to go shoot it out.
But keep the shitty caps and supercaps out, and no bombs or bubbles. Make it so its pilots x ships x skill that count, not moon goo. People want to kill you, they gotta come in close and personal and put their balls on the table. If they want you not to run, they must go into web range and grab you personally.
faggot barbie lovers get what you deserve lol
This is a weird article. I've never seen anyone try to "figure out" hi-sec players before…let alone manage to fail at it.
"Why hisec?" Some of us dedicated hisec players stay there because we're bad at PvP, or we just aren't into it. It's true; I'm as capable as suicide ganking hulks as the next guy, but I don't. I just don't get my jollies from blowing up other peoples' stuff; sue me. Another sizable chunk simply don't want to have a boss; we're the small-businessmen of Eve, and we do what we want, when we want, with who we want, and if we don't like you, we're out, you can go piss up a rope. Maybe we don't make as much as a BS-reimbursement goon or wormholer with 15 alts, but I'm also nobody's online underling, and I sure as hell don't pay a monthly fee to take orders from anybody, or get some Eve U wanker's permission before I put up a hisec POS.
As to "fixing" hisec sounds remarkably like "fixing" social security; neither one is broken, but there are people that would try to convince you they are, because THEY want the money in the pot. In null, flunkies are power, and if you can "force" or coerce more players from hisec into your ranks, it's that much more payola for you. Hisec is unconquerable, and there's a lot of money in it that can't be controlled, and that pisses some of the nullsec barons off no end; hence the "carebear hate" for players totally minding their own business with the PvE side of the game. What's the line? "They hate our freedom?" Pretty much that.
So what if you have social interaction issues m8 I'm sure those can get worked out with a little bit of help.
Also fuck you my country's social security or old age pension is in the dumpster and wont last another 20 years. So don't go saying shit you have no clue about!!!!
And I totally love being told what to do and like totally controlled in how I fly and fit my ships and like told how to play my game like every day. It is so fantastic not having to think for my self when I log in!!! Right guys? guys?
/sarcasm
That's what you get for living in a country where beaver pelts are legal currency.
i was going to troll this thread then i noticed you had already set up camp. enjoy
The respawn rate is a little slow, but the AI is wonderfully predictable, it just runs in the same direction every time.
Incidentally…
"As for the future, the chief actuary of Canada reported in late 2010 that the CPP remains sustainable at current contribution rates for the next 75 years." So, how'd you put it? "Don't go saying shit you have no clue about." www.cbc.ca/news/business/taxseason/story/2…
Owned
One of the reasons I keep thinking of applying for Canadian citizenship…
This is why I never go to eve meet ups, you autist fucks
hey riverini, what is up with all this highsec faggoty special victims support group bullshit,
where is the NC. propaganda showing how CFC welps?
are you just going to feature worthless dear diary blogs of some random irrelevant care bear every fucking week?
Or are you going to continue to copy and paste fucking devblogs, write 3 lines and end it with "discuss", this type of shit is no better than that aids club that is eveo GD.
This is pretty true. While my mains are based in high, I have 6 toons from their accounts farming a wh. And a well picked wh can give you the profits of null, and the relative safety of high. Plus a large tower doesn't cost that much in the grand scheme… trust me, I've lost a few
im a null sec pvp'er. i use high sec alts to fund my pvp, i build stuffs there as its easier. no matter what region of 0.0 ive lived in nothing is 'always' avalible and that is the way 0.0 is ment to be. many people i know do the same. make isk in high for 0.0 pvp, so any major screwing over of high sec would cost ccp in subs, of that i have no doubt. if you look back at the 0.0 anom nerf and the incursion nerf, both lost ccp subs and both were a direct hit on 0.0 pvp'ers income, as many had alts just to farm and fund there pvp. buff'ing low sec is good for every one, fucking high sec up isnt.
It's pretty crazy to see how much people are haters. Carebears are like kids that have their toy broken and go crying out "that guy broke my toy, he should be punished!!!". Pvpers are looking at them with contempt because they enjoy this little power of them to "break little kids' toys". More than a worrying sociopathic state of mind, pvpers behave like kids as well.
The real problem here is that EVE is a game (supposedly enjoyable), but it works like the real world (at least partly). In the real world, police security is not absolute, shit happens. But it's not unexistent either. In a game like EVE, police is necessary (cause let's face it, people are and behave as assholes), but it's not a child's game either : you can't make it completely safe. Why? Sure, EVE would gain more subscriptions as noobs and children would find it 'cool'. And they will play for a while like complete farming bots, until they get out in low, and discover the real measure of EVE. At this point, they either keep botting or quit. And EVE will in no manner benefit from those people, because they behave like fucking robots.
Just leave the bloody system as it is! Maybe make low-sec slightly less hard to dive into, because true new players will find it an interesting experience. Some object the supremacy of great alliances in null. People organise and build empires : it's up to them! Observe reality : our nations are organisations of people and that's why they are strong and dictate their rules. EVE, as a realistic sandbox, cannot prevent that : ot should rather encourage it.
Bottom line : everyone, stop whining.
To me… Nulsec will always be raiding space… someplace you go out, get a bunch of money/gear/whatnot… and then return to whatever place in empire you call home. At the moment, I'm operating in both places at the same time… and I am loving the variety of it.
Money and resources all end up in Jita eventually, and from there go everywhere else in the game. A continual cycle, which keeps the game we all love going. What does it matter where it all comes from?
but first hisec has to put forth decent candidates instead of the usual dumb faggots with blogs