Jester’s Trek: You made Me this Way
I’m accused all the time of having an overly negative view of CCP and EVE Online in one form or another. Or I’m accused of being a cynic. Just this week, someone accused me of being a “glass half-empty” kind of guy.
Guilty as charged.
But hey, it’s not like I didn’t warn you. 
It’s right up there in the banner text that I write about EVE from the bitter-vet perspective. And how does one become a bitter-vet? It happens because you predict the worst possible outcome, then say “I hope it doesn’t happen this way, but…” and then… the thing you’ve predicted happens anyway. What has precipitated this prologue? I’ll get to that presently. But before I do, I want to remind you that New Eden is a harsh, cold, unrelenting place where you can get scammed or betrayed at any time. Everyone remember that?
Great. Let’s talk about player-to-player contracts, the tent-pole feature of EVE Online’s winter 2012 expansion.
I hope it doesn’t happen this way, but it sure looks like CCP is trying to ensure that EVE players can never scam or exploit the naivete of DUST 514 players.
Now granted, CCP has done a wonderful job of hiding what I believe is their intent with this feature. And Two step, Gods bless him, apparently asked about this explicitly during the CSM Summit session on this topic:
Two step asked if these contracts would be connected to Dust 514 contracts in any ways (sic), but the development team responded that this would strictly govern EVE game play for the time being.
That’s the only time DUST 514 is mentioned in the entire section. But absent DUST, it sure makes you wonder who or what this feature is for, doesn’t it? Oh sure, there were about 15 possibilities listed:
escort;
training;
POS/POCO take-downs;
POS/POCO defense;
wormhole eviction;
wormhole protection;
0.0 renter relationships;
0.0 manufacturing;
individual corp member accountability;
recurrent billing and services;
reciprocal standings for allied entities;
third-party escrow services;
time limits for services renders;
requirements for a number of ship kills during a war-dec;
requirements for specific kill types; and,
collateral agreements for loans.
It’s quite a long list, isn’t it? There’s only one problem. Not a single item on that list came from a CCP employee. They’re all CSM member ideas.
Why did CCP even bring the topic up in the first place? We have a clue, and it’s at the bottom of page 138 of the Minutes:
CCP Tallest, reading from the design goals document for the system: “We want to give players tools so that they can interact with other players in a structured manner, with an emphasis on putting meta-behavior into this structure. Examples would be bounties, mercenary contracts, kill rights, etc. The focus should be on players or player entities taking contracts with other players or player entities, not the environment. The causality is expressed when players build the rules for a contract, then the rules are active and lasting for a period. We’d like to leverage the interaction to create social objects, and review the current system if possible, moving to the long-term goal of contracts being for all player-to-player services, and the marketplace being for item exchanges.”
That’s a long goal. Let’s break it down.
Today, player-to-player agreements exist of course, but they’re handled via tools that exist outside of the game itself. Most often, EVE mails, e-mail, and the EVE Online forums are used, as well as alliance forums for documentation of more private agreements. If a corp joins the CFC or rents space in from the DRF, there are formal or semi-formal agreements in place associated with that: the CFC corp has to provide a certain number of ships for CTAs, the DRF renters have to form up for ops, and so forth. If I hire Noir or some other mercenary group to fulfill an objective, there are EVE or e-mails communicated back and forth to describe the terms of the agreement. A well-known contract currently exists that establishes the goals and principles of OTEC for limiting technetium supply. And I’m told by a reliable witness that there is a cabal of players that collectively own tens of thousands of PLEXes that makes formal agreements on how many PLEXes should be sold at any given time and what the price point of a PLEX should be.
Only the very simplest player agreements, such as courier contracts with Red Frog Freight or the like, are handled entirely with in-game tools. And even some courier contracts require a little extra negotiation. That’s what Blue Frog Freight is for, as an example.
Of course, the interesting thing about such agreements is that they can be broken at any time and there’s no punishment in-game for doing it. So it happens all the time. The meta-game takes care of dissemination of the information that this or that person is untrustworthy and is likely to break such a contract. The Mittani got some mileage out of acting as a third-party escrow service for super-caps for a while, for instance, but he doesn’t do it any more because word got out that he was untrustworthy at this service. EVE’s “marketplace”, for want of a better word, is quite good at self-correcting in this regard.
The team involved here, though, makes it clear that they want to scrap the current contracting system and “push more item trading into the marketplace, turning contracts into a more free-form service,” in the words of CCP Soniclover. The tricky part, of course, is going to be in the process of “players building the rules for a contract, the rules are active, and lasting for a period.” How does one program that? Nobody asks, but CCP Paradox volunteers that they will “formalize these agreements so that players don’t have to worry about trusting the other party, because the mechanics would provide a level of guarantee.”
Nobody asked “how?”, at least according to the Minutes. Sure would have been interesting had someone done so!
That said, one of the goals here is clearly to move that “level of guarantee” into the game itself. If Mittens breaks three third-party super-cap transfers in a row, that presumably will be shown in Mittens’s contract history. Of course, there’s nothing saying that a scammer can’t tell both parties “I’m going to use my alt X for this” and then populate this alt with ten or twelve phony (but apparently successful) third-party super-cap transfers, but let’s not break CCP’s spirit just yet.
That’s all CCP has to say about this feature for now, though. They spent the bulk of the session canvassing the CSM for ideas rather than presenting a lot of specifics themselves. The thing that I’m having a hard time swallowing is the supposed lack of a DUST link on this topic. The entire point to the EVE-DUST link — as I understood it — was going to be the provision for EVE players to contact DUST players for help in either clearing off plantets or defending their own. Without a viable contract system to make such agreements, how will that link work? And without that need driving it, it’s hard to understand the urgency for this feature.
But yet CCP decided to be coy about it.
What I worry about is that CCP is being coy about it because they don’t want to throw DUST players into the deep end right away. If DUST players had to rely on the EVE-O or DUST forums to get jobs, then got scammed into attacking a planet for free because the person hiring them refused to pay, is the dark, cold world of New Eden going to drive a lot of starry-eyed DUST players off? Therefore we need a formalized contract system in the game to keep them from being scammed. And if that makes EVE slightly more difficult to execute scams in, goes this logic, then so be it. I hope it doesn’t happen this way. But.
In the meantime, I’m having a hard time deciding who the player-to-player contract feature is for. The bulk of EVE players just don’t seem to have much of a need for more than what the contract system provides today. As I joked yesterday, EVE had a “freeform contract” system in the past and nobody used it. Without a “killer app” for this feature, I can’t build up a lot of enthusiasm for it. If the new contract system allowed the formalization of renter agreements, then the big alliances would like it. If it allowed for contracting of kill rights from player to player, the merc groups would like it. But widespread appeal? So far, I’m not seeing it.
Maybe I’m a cynic. But if I am, EVE and CCP made me this way.
I really liked the contracts idea. People will still get scammed. But honestly based on the CSM minutes (yes I read all 165 pages), combined with interstitials in the ATX, and other crunchy bits, the tent-poll feature of the winter 2012 expansion will be modular POS structures, ring mining, with the contracts thrown in. I hardly think they can market an updated contracts system and call it an expansion and seriously think the players won't feel ripped off…
Go back & reread CSM minutes specifically said don't expect ring mining until winter 2013
eff it here I'll give you the quote "CCP Xhagen asked when we could expect ring mining. CCP Soundwave said after the POS work because it would most likely use the same team – best case scenario would be winter expansion 2013."
Sure, the CSM minutes said at the time they weren't planning on addressing ring mining or pos revamp for another year & a half, but these minutes are several months old now, and the focus has obviously changed based on what they were discussing with CCP Unifex & CCP Greyscale in the ATX pre-matches, about the planned revamp for POS this winter 2012. Honestly I'd be a little underwhelmed if all they did this winter was revamping the contracts system.
Also, based on what I've heard they've already started prototyping ring mining, and I have heard that is scheduled for winter as well, but I'm really not sure if they can do it in time.
I'd be more than a little underwhelmed… I'd be loading my ammo for another run at the Jita monument…
Need to keep up the good momentum ccp… keep fixing things…
M8, they haven't even finished release planning for the Winter expansion. Everyone is just coming off of vacation. CCP doesn't even "know' exactly what will be in for Winter. We have a good idea of what to expect but nothing is certian yet. Ring mining will NOT be done by winter, that much I can assure you.
Also, Jester is so off base with his thoughts on this it's got everyone on the CSM and CCP wondering WTF he's actually talking about. The contract system discussed is basically the three year old TREATY design on steroids. It's something that applies to all levels of EVE play and would be pretty awesome if done properly. It has nothing at all to do with DUST in any way AFAIK. Perhaps it could be tied in later, but the current design is all about FiS / EVE.
Maybe this is a good indicator that there's been a failure in the lines of communication. If CCP/CSM are announcing this contract feature as an exciting thing, and the general player base is collectively asking "What's the big deal?" that seems like somebody has missed a message.
Maybe somebody on the CSM should write up a post for the various EVE media outlets. Or, even better, a CCP dev should pen up a dev blog explaining how this will benefit the average EVE player. How will this contract system fit into the game as we play it, and how will we use it? Will this be something that can be pre-built and quickly implemented to do something like, say, ransom a pod with a guarantee that you'll be allowed to go free if you pay it? Or will this only be something alliance leaders will see, and allow things like renters to pay to have sov, or bounties to be placed on corporations or whatever?
Basically, more information needs to be released to the player base to correct misconceptions and allow people to form an opinion that right now is trending towards "bad".
Thanks for the clarification Seleene. I'd agree that a revamp in the whole corporations system is a big deal with big ramifications across the whole of EVE, however I would think this is just a single team that would be implementing this, correct? I also know that it takes longer than 6 months sometimes to be working on the big things like POS revamp and ring mining. POS revamp could be used as underlying framework for every structure in the game, replacing every station and starbase with this modular system for instance, so I definitely want them to do it up right.
What I'd like to see is some devblogs and communication from CCP regarding long-term and short-term teams. I think it would be wise to put together some long-term teams (WIS, POS, other game mechanics) and short-term teams that handle iteration and features that can be developed in 6 – 8 months.
Oh, and who takes 4-week long vacations???? o.0
Sorry to break it to you buddy but the winter expansion will be total crap. They will trow in that crimewatch bullshit and add some fixes to hisec faqwars. It's pretty much an expansion for hisec carebears so that they don't have to pvp or get scammed.
People bitched after Dominion launched about them scrapping Treaties, and now bitch because they are implementing them. :boggle:
As to the Dust link, If you read the minutes, you'd know that Dust would be relegated to FW at launch and a contract system would be implemented in the second release in 2013, along with the nullsec part of the game. But :conspiracy: away.
people really havn't been paying close attention to what dust will do. I heard for months people bitching, saying dust will cost them all their prescious high sec pi… lol. I'm still not convinced it's even going to succeed, the entire idea of it seems ironically ludacris to me
The moment a dust merc blows up one of my facilities in highsec, 15 colonies will be orbitally bombarded to remove dust content. And I'll be asking for my sp in Planet Management back (2 maxed characters and a scrub on the side)
Same if they follow through with that rediculous idea to let concord lose it's highsec poco's… If whoever owns the poco of my planets raises taxes, they will lose my business quickly because I will just start to use the rockets or stop using planets altogether.
On the bright side, it will mean less hauling stuff around and more time for mining, missions, and mayhem. But I will miss being able to make tcu's, sbu's, and tower stuff easily…
i think you missed what was being said. Dust isn't going to affect high sec at all. It's strictly a sov based game.
Then how are the highsec customs offices going to be claimed/destroyed and replaced by player owned ones? I'm assuming Dust mercs will have a hand in that… Unless you can legally wardec concord and survive…
They haven't answered this question, but Dust gives them an easy answer…
i don't beleive they ever will. but it remains that CCp has stated dust will only be involved in sov mechanics
The highsec customs offices will be either removed or replaced with a shootable npc variant and quickly removed by players I imagine. I dont think anyone anywhere said DUST players would be involved in that
In typical Rapid Development fashion, CCP goes in half cocked and promises jesus fixes in the future. I like eve, not because of what CCP has tried to make it, but what the players make of what CCP does to them. I call it the green weenie (green = money; weenie = bend over here it comes again). The way we adapt to it makes the game a lot less boring as it seems anymore, it is players vs. CCP and finding a way to break their "grand plan" seems to bring a lot of fun to the game.
I'm so tired of hearing the term 'bittervet'. Fuck off and let the rest of us have some fun.
FYI: A "bittervet" is not a veteran. Players with a high SP count, but no experience use it to claim themselves a veteran by trying to give their useless existence in high-sec a meaning. It is like saying "Look, I have been playing EVE for so long that I, too, am a veteran. If I have experience or not does not matter. All that matters is that I have lots of SPs." They really are bitter over not having gained any dominance in the game and over the years, but have been living a life of unfulfilled dreams and no-can-do's.
Real veterans are not bitter. Veterans either run large corps and alliances, have made lots of friends, have lots of ISKs or posses large kill records. They all have more than just their SPs and date of birth to show their age. Only those without any noteworthy record have turned bitter and because they have not made any gains in the game to look back upon.
Mother of God… this is basically the old Treaties feature on steroids. What is all this talk about DUST??
You made yourself this way jester, not ccp.
Why is this a suprise? CCP has been integrating numerous things that players created out of game, into their game over the years. The form of the killmail is now similar to the way we display killmails on EDK – killboards for war declarations – similar to campaigns on EDK. I forsee in the future that they will integrate an overall killboard like eve-kill.net into their game as well. They have already integrated "alliance/corp" boards into their web portal. Market analysis tools, etc… I could go on for days. To say that CCP has had an original idea in the last 4 years (the duration I have played) would make me fucking die laughing – literally.
This is a rather dumb post. As much as I like scamming, it shouldnt be the goal of game design, and as much of these scams rely on the failure of Eve's tools, anything made to improve these tools are fine for me.
"Not a single item on that list came from a CCP employee. They’re all CSM member ideas."
Why are u so surprised ?
Most likely, they are looking for some dumb company to get rid of eve online, and remaining stuff to deploy on dust. Why to waste resources on something that is to be dead in year or two?
btw, golden time of rmt IS gone, and all those pixels aka. trilions and plexes… well dickheads, u can allways go back to wowo.
Jester, I think you underestimate the number of corporations and alliances who would like to rent a piece of 00 but are unable to do so because it is completely impossible to know who is even remotely trustworthy. And if a feature is good for small corps and alliances (and good for the big alliances) then I dont see the problem with wider appeal. It sounds like a great feature for everyone, even individual characters. of the listed things you can do with it, 11 struck me as things ive wanted to do the last 6 months. And Im not even IN 00 right now =)
The real thing to pull away from this is that instead of focusing on a pos rework, something everyone wants, they are working on something that no one is really asking for.
Like the UI… wanna bet the current contracts will be scrapped & peeps will be demanding to have it back? What we'll get is a sorry imitation thru kludges with a lame ass excuse you'll get used to it. I still have not go used to the shitty revamp of the Chat channels which you used to be able to minimalize to the bottom of the screen.
For sure! I hate not having my chat windows minimize down to the bottom. I don't mind everything else minimizing to the side really, but chat channels. ..
Important message for Jester:
[youtube YhkNLHictW8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhkNLHictW8 youtube]
most of the time i love your post , but being bittevet is abslute your own choice , many of us play this game for a long time arnt bitter and still logging in having fun.
We the CFC do not "CTA". We never CTA. We say "shit is going to happen" and people show up because they choose to. A lot of people show up because we win a lot.
We do not CTA.
My alliance isn't in the CFC, we pretty much only use jabber pings to get people into fleet, but to be fair it's pretty much the same fucking thing as a CTA, we just don't call it a CTA. I think it's pretty fair to assume most null sec alliance use jabber as well to get people in fleet.
It is the same thing, but don't tell CFC that, they think they are unique, and the only people in the eve that would have a use for a cell phone.
Call it what you like, but there are CFC corporations whose leaders rage on comms about kicking members every time there's a CTA…ops, sorry—"optional fun activity"…forming up.
you talk a lot of shit and at the end say nothing!
Cynic no, hypocrite more likely. Its always someone elses fault isn't it.
"TV didn't raise my kids right"
"McDonalds made me fat"
"CCP made me an angry, whiny bittervet"
Maybe I should start blaming CCP for me being arrogant?
Its your godgiven right to be a cynic if you want to, but stop blaming others for your shortcomings.
I think the liberal media has some responsiblity here also…
Cause life is precious…
And God…
And the bible…
*nods knowingly*
To give him a little cover, most people who try to put content out there for the masses to read or listen to will generally get labeled as cynical or "glass half empty" types. In reality, it isn't so much the people, but the content they produce will tend to be biased towards the negative side of the spectrum. As someone who co-hosts an Eve Radio show that deals with Eve issues, other than spouting big piles of horse shit to fill air time, we spend most time discussing what is wrong with a particular topic. Sorry to say, it doesn't take much effort or fill air time or blog pages by just agreeing with something. And it doesn't make for very interesting reading/listening for those who are tuning in. Going negative sells.
". . .the CFC corp has to provide a certain number of ships for CTAs. . ."
We don't have CTAs. We have ":siren: SHIT IS REAL :siren: Get the fuck in fleet if you want an actual fight!"
TL; DR: I SUCK AND YOU'RE TO BLAME!
GIVE US TREATIES! GIVE US TREATIES! also everything in EVE is an object with a unique ID, treaties implementation is as simple as interacting with those objects just like they do with everything courier contracts.
Freighter escort would be implemented by having the player specify which freighter and what stuff in the freighter has to survive for payment to be recieved, then a time window for when the freighter is expected to arrive at destination. If the freighter with those goods does not arrive at destination within the window, the contract doesn't pay out. If the freighter is destroyed, the contract doesn't pay out. To disincentivize theft, you offer a collateral requirement. Behold, escort contracts high level design. (Bonus: it's easily applicable to POS/POCO defense/killing)ts just like they do with everything else.
All contracts are scams, and some scams are contracts. Yeah, DUST is going to be carebearified, and thank god for that. Eve's scamming is incredibly fucking annoying; for the most part; it's SPAM, not scam. Al lit does is make us ignore local; nobody actually falls for *any* of this garbage…but they keep doing it, because hope springs eternal, and if they annoy other players in the process, hey 2x win!
JESTER YOU'D HIRE US FOR MERC WORK BUT WON'T EVEN BE A GUEST ON DECLARATIONS OF WAR? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK WE'D MERC FOR YOU HMMMMM