Poetic Discourse: Ring Mining the CCP Soundwave Way

By Poetic Stanziel | Aug 1st 2012 9:27PM
68 Comments

EVE University graduate. Drama Llama. Covert operations pilot. Poetic Stanziel has been very active in the blogging community bringing views from seasoned high-sec pilots, we please to share his stories and views on current Eve Online events and invite you to read more stories from his Poetic Discourse blog.

Poetic Discourse: Ring Mining the CCP Soundwave Way

I don’t read EON. Mainly because it just seems like old news. Apparently, they do get news we have yet to get anywhere else. Ring mining, for instance.

Seismic Stan (@Freebooted) commented on my previous ring mining post, stating that CCP Soundwave has outlined some of his high falootin’ ideas about ring mining in the latest EON issue. Stan didn’t go into much detail other than to mention that Soundwave really likes The Deadliest Catch (a show about Alaskan crab fishing trawlers), his idea being an extension of fishing, actually net trawling through a planetary ring, scooping up rocks.

Net trawling sounds like a really cool idea. My previous ring mining post isn’t very cool. But then it wasn’t supposed to be. It was mainly a thought process on creating a new mechanic and option for gameplay using only existing game mechanics.

Anyhow, completely new mechanics are always preferable to simply reworking a bunch of current mechanics into something sort of new.

So how might this net trawling work? I picture two mining vessels with a net (some sort of electro-force net) extended between them. They both fly in the same direction, manually piloting to keep an optimal distance between them, which keeps the net in a configuration that has the largest area, which then scoops up the most possible ring rocks.

I’ve drawn some pictures to illustrate (the glowy green thing is the net):

The ships are at their optimal distance, the net has the largest area, scooping up the most rocks.

The ships are too far apart, the net too taut. The scooping area is reduced, fewer rocks collected.

This seems reasonably bot-proof (if not entirely bot-proof.) This method of mining requires two accounts, minimum. Bots aren’t very cooperative.

Net trawling as ring ming has that collaborative aspect CCP Soundwave wants in his ring mining. Since there is no way to set two ships flying in exactly the same direction automatically, this method of mining requires constant attention and constant manual course corrections. Speed corrections might also be necessary.

If CCP were to do something like this, get all the 3D aspects right, the many many ring rocks, the netting, the scooping into the net, the path of empty space behind the trawlers, then this could actually be a fun little way to mine. Mining that isn’t boring, who would have thought it possible?

- Poetic Stanziel

Send us Intel/Corrections

Send us Intel/Corrections via dropbox or shoot us an e-mail

Tags
  • SgtSimons

    i kind of like this idea. it would have to use up a little more of your mind in order to do it right, unlike mining which requires no thought at all. But i do really like the component of actually having to fly your ship in order to do it right, instead of sitting there and pressing a button.

    • ?Q?

      So here we are, thinking of ways to deal with a yet-to-be-announced new feature. It's not even on the test server yet lol. Who knows what it will be, will the net only be broadside? Or will it be Aft/Stern as well? Hell, it might even be above the ship :o

      Afk miners explode. Non-afk miners don't. Gankers should definitely be "against" this idea xD

  • damn ccp

    i don't kind of like this idea… I F*CKING LOVE THIS IDEA!

  • dumbass

    i'm sold if when the net deploys the song dead or alive by bon jovi stars up

  • Bagehi

    I think the reference to The Deadliest Catch had more to do with dealing with environmental dangers. Sudden storms, difficulty finding the ore you want, unpredictable events. Stuff that means you have to actually be in front of your computer to mine. Perhaps with a logi chain to keep everyone alive. Stuff that makes you have to use your brain. Potentially making this interesting and lucrative.

    • http://evenews24.com riverini

      What if you have to wade ur way to avoid "Roid NET" breakage and not to lose your cargo, something like this could add a risk element to the PVE endeavor, which I love.

      I like Poetic's idea, and I believe CCP should consider it despite the fact of being proposed by a player and not a dev.

      • Bagehi

        I definitely like Poetic's idea.

        • Shattershark

          Flying in one direction, looking at range indicator. Riveting!

          I don't think that replacing one kind of bland, boring crap with another is a good thing to do.

          • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

            "… looking at range indicator."

            Sounds sort of like EVE combat.

          • Shattershark

            If what you propose looks like EVE combat then EVE combat be damned.

            It's one indicator, uninspiring task of proper alignment and then moving in one direction for some time. Rinse, repeat. It is predictable, time-consuming, lacks variety and excitement. Therefore it is a) BORING and b) will be botted to hell and back. And no, proposed gameplay is not even remotely bot-proof.

          • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

            Not bot-proof by dudes with graduate degrees from MIT.

            But for the level of bot-coder that works in his free-time on EVE Online, probably quite bot resistant.

            The bot, in this instance, has to analyze the shape of the net over time to then decide on new course corrections. The camera has to be pointing in the right direction so that those course corrections make sense. Lots of things need to be set up manually, properly, because there aren't any reset buttons in EVE for this stuff.

            The game doesn't feed vectors out to the bots … the bots must figure out vectors using image analysis.

            I'd be surprised if EVE bot-coders were up to the task.

          • Shattershark

            So there is no argument about it being boring.
            Here's the problem: if you make someone pay attention to repetitive, predictable (adding random net fluctuations doesn't make it any more interesting) process doesn't mean that it becomes less boring. It only becomes more obviously boring.

          • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

            It's more interesting than current mining.

            Why don't you offer up an idea that makes mining exciting? It's easy enough to be a negative nancy.

          • Shattershark

            If you get a bad blowjob are you going to do a better one yourself just to prove a point?
            I'm not a game designer, but I do know why I don't mine in lowsec or fly logistics in incursions.

            Watching paint dry can be more interesting than current mining.

          • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

            I would appreciate it if you would give me a really good blowjob.

          • Shattershark

            That will cost a lot and I'll outsource that job to a third party.

          • Different Strokes

            What is boring to you may not be to someone else. I can think of a couple other things in EVE that I find more boring than this. Some people do these kinds of activities, not for the adrenaline thrill of it, but because it is a relaxing way to make money, talk to corpmates, read the news, watch tv, etc. This idea of "netting" the rocks together would force you to pay attention to the screen more than current mining does but (speculative) it wouldn't require you to be glued to the screen ready to pounce like during a (extremely boring) gate camp.

          • Shattershark

            Ok. Give me a reason why making one pay attention to something boring is a good idea?

            Yes, there are quite a few boring things in eve, most people avoid them unless they absolutely have to do them. Watching TV or talking to friends doesn't require you to pay subscription fee or log in.

            EVE already has more than enough of Second Job stuff. Maybe it's time to stop adding more of that?

          • Different Strokes

            One reason I can think of is that it would reduce the number of botters. As Poetic already stated it would be extremely difficult to create a program that could complete this idea. No one is forcing anyone to do anything and this would be far from a "second job."

            People do various activities in EVE for their own personal reasons. I am a Miner/Manufacturer because I actually enjoy it not because I have to. No it's not exciting but if I want to do something exciting I'll go Race my Motorcycle or something else that I enjoy that gets my blood flowing. Mining for me is like fishing, it's Relaxing and Rewarding.

          • Shattershark

            Number of botters could be reduced by other means. Anyway, mining is not a first place to go if you'll look at CCP Sreegs' fanfest presentation.

            I can't see the reason to mine right now. In highsec running multiple miners with Orca is an attention-intensive task and provides less isk/hour than blitzing missions or running incursions. Semi-afk mining with a single miner means that you're better off fitting a Rattlesnake with excellent tank and grinding missions while afk. Not very exciting, but quite profitable. In true 0.0 and w-space mining can't hold a candle when it comes to isk generation.

            Mining for profit is inferior to other options (though Inferno 1.2 will probably make a Mackinaw a good source of income in deep afk) and mining for it's own sake is something that I can't imagine.

      • http://twitter.com/Freebooted @Freebooted

        It's not an idea that's been proposed by a player – it's the essence of what CCP Soundwave discussed in his EON interview. It's part of his vision for the future of mining.

        But in any case, it is potentially a lot more interactive than the existing mining, it's all "high level" discussion though, which I assume to mean that it could all be subject to change or abandonment.

        As I understand it, POS revisions have already leapfrogged ring mining in the priority list (according to recent forum posts from CCP Soundwave).

        • http://evenews24.com riverini

          Poetic's drawing explain the whole deal in such a detail that he deserves some credit.

          • http://twitter.com/Freebooted @Freebooted

            Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not taking anything away from Poetic's article or the fine illustrations, I was just trying to nip some misinformation in the bud before the EN24 rumour mill ended up at "Player single-handedly revolutionises EVE gameplay with napkin scribble after seeing Jesus in Veldspar field". ;)

          • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

            It was DurrHurrDurr. In a field of daisies. And he was nekkid.

  • AFK

    So I just have to figure out what slow boat speed to set one mining alt traveling through the middle of belt, and what speed to orbit on my other alt and then "Keyboard mode disabled, engage AFK income mode ™"

    • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

      I'm sure this orbiting exploit could be solved easily enough.

  • http://twitter.com/daemonfire @daemonfire

    "Bots aren't very cooperative", never laughed so hard. OMG get out, plx. Get out^^

  • Joccob

    I don't know about this idea. I keep thinking about the environmental effects. Just think you might spawn all new professions (a.k.a Greenpeace) activists worried about all of the rookie ships that might get swept up in these nets. And just think of the new Jita markets it would open when industrialists start marketing "Velator free" minerals.

  • Space troll

    Conferming CCP Soundwave has. Created the first Atomic bomb to kill bots! Let's incorperate this idea for normal mining and thus drop the mushroom cloud on bots forever.

  • BZD

    Its a nice idea, but i dont see the reason. Why should we mine Moon-belts with a Fish-Net? maybe i missed something but you cant mine Asteriods with a Fishnet, with this methode you can only mine Gas.

    No, its not Bot-Proof, the Bots will just adapt. Anything thats predictable is not Bot-Proof.

  • 425mm rails

    The idea sounds cool but it doesn't really make sense compared to an asteroid belt.

  • simple to automate

    This sounds simple to automate
    just take the following actions before hand

    * fly a interceptor to a "ring belt"
    *drop a can fly X amount forward drop a can
    * turn 90 degrees
    * drop a can
    * fly back untill your in a position to drop another can that got the same caracteristics as you wanted (making it one big square).
    * fly in your two mining vessles
    *align them using the four cans
    * go ahead move towards the other can and your done.

    tell me how this isn't simple to automate and to perfect

    i like the idea somewhat but its easy to "automate"

    instead bring in spawning enemies, area dangers explosions etc.
    make some rocks so big you have to move around them.

    and for mining mini game i would rather see that the ore scanner get good upgrade by telling you what kind of minerals the astroid contains (not automatic anymore) that way you have to have one to optimize your miners
    and for a bonus you should keep the scanner scanning on your current target and if your lucky it tells you i could find "Rareer" ores mixed in the astroid that you can mine out
    (cross sight on the roid and let you try to hit the ore without destroying the astroid in the process.
    making the astroid tumble with physics and crumble to smaller fragments if hit by a ship they would make mining more fun and responsive.

    and for the love of god if they do
    you should be able to tell your ship to move all from ore cargobay –> orca Cargobay so you can focus on the mini games.

    • that guy

      "tell me how this isn't simple to automate and to perfect "

      The third dimension

      • Lolman

        3ed dimension isn't a problem if you turn 90deg around X or around Z doesn't matter if you do it correctly you get a square box and can do the simple math needed to double check the distance ís correct.

        im no botter but hell i can't imagine it to be that hard to script that kind of behaviour
        or to script two bots to exchange information outside of the game by data trafic and OCR of the overview.
        Im sorry but i can't see the problem to automate the behaviour.

  • http://twitter.com/Freebooted @Freebooted

    I was going to suggest someone go and read the original EON source article, but watching the increasingly radical speculation as everyone plays Chinese Whispers is too entertaining. In that same article, Soundwave also said he wants DUST soldiers with jetpacks in the asteroid fields. He'd also like to see asteroid-based industry POSs and the ability to manipulate asteroids with tractor/repulsor beams for defence, comedy and profit.

    (N.B. I might have made up some of that on the spot. The truth lies within the pages of EON.)

    • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

      "The truth lies within the pages of EON."

      Why are you shilling so hard for EON?

      • http://twitter.com/Freebooted @Freebooted

        Well mainly because it's painful watching everyone speculate on a scrap of info from an EON article, but also because I wrote the article in question and it's killing me resisting blurting out all the dirt. I really want to, but then that defeats the point of an exclusive.

        • http://evenews24.com riverini

          Not reading EON until i can buy it using ISK.

          • http://twitter.com/Freebooted @Freebooted

            You can view some pages on Zinio for free.

          • Test needs me

            I ordered the mag. when they offered it at half price only to find they charged me visa full price, After hours of trying to get an answers from EON, only to be told by some dude that he couldn't help me, and that he couldn't direct me to someone that could help me, I had to tell visa to reverse the charges. I'll never support that mag. in any way sharp or form.

        • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

          Ah.

          It sounds like a fun read … but not paying $14.95 for one article and a bunch of old news.

  • The Raging Turtle

    Please before you post an article please I fucking beg you. Take a couple of minutes and proof read the bugger.

    Oh and I like the idea, you could add some kind of hazard as well as the mining fleet barge through asteroids.

    • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

      I tend to edit in the half hour after I post. Just a bad habit.

      Riverini posted this very quickly. The version on my site has another image and most of the grammar fixed, and several sentences simplified.

      http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/08/ring-mi…

  • islador

    Not difficult to bot (or multibox) at all.

    Two toons each with nets.
    1. One toon flys from rock to rock.
    2. The other toon orbits the first at the optimal distance.

    Easily scalable with multiple pairs. Definitely a much cooler way to mine. Achieving optimum efficacy with bots would be difficult, but no undoable I'd imagine.

    • that guy

      Think about what you just posted and how retarded it is.

      A) Botting and multibox are pretty fucking different.

      B) Two bots working together to align and scoop moving asteroids would be incredibly difficult. They would have to by dynamic – aligning to the sun and keeping range is not going to be an effective way in the above conceptual situation. Possibly you could code one bot to identify bulk areas of moving roids and plot a potential course, and the other to keep range at the right angle to scoop said roids, but good luck. And for what? There is a cap on how much they can sell ISK for thanks to PLEX.

      This would encourage botters to make bots for other, more simple games with larger audiences. Kinda why people get car alarms. Not going to stop your car from getting nicked if they really want it, but the car parked next to your without an alarm is an easier target.

    • Test needs me

      You clearly don't know what a ring is if you think orbit would work.

      • Gizan – Retaired

        YOU CLEARLY dont know what a circle is compared to a ring… also, most orbits are on the Z celestial plane, and so are most astroid belts.

        • Shogun

          Actually, orbits are not mostly on the celestial plane, they are totally random. On top of that…. any time you change your speed your orbit resets to a random direction.

  • BillyBob

    Interesting idea, I'll give you credit for that, but as a means to stop bots this is far from the mark. This type of bot could be made far simpler than the existing PVE bots that are already out there.

    What mining needs is not more micromanaging – I mean have you ever actually tried to fly in a formation with someone in game for any appreciable amount of time. it's not only damn near impossible, but also frustrating to the point of making you pray for an aneurysm. What we need is more interaction. Some hybrid combination of PVE and PI. Something that takes a bit of skill to get the best ore, and required a person to actually be at the keyboard.

  • PHNXofEVE

    If 2 toons have same skills and therefore same max speed they just align to a distant object such as the sun, yes they are in a sense going to be slowly growing closer, but the difference in angle would be null and void at the range.

    • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

      Yeah. I commented on that particular idea earlier today in a comment on my blog post. :(

  • Jakes

    I'm assuming this is all speculation as far as the mechanic's go, but it looks like a great idea.

    • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

      Yes. Speculation. I just heard the idea "net trawling" and went from there. I don't subscribe to or read EON. I'm sure this particular article is great, but that magazine is mostly old news. It's the Mintchip of newsprint.

      • http://twitter.com/Freebooted @Freebooted

        That's unkind. So you're trashing valid and researched EON material in favour of your blogpost which you made-up based on information which you were told was previously published in that same "old news" magazine. Classy.

        • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

          I believe you told me the EON article was as much pie-in-the-sky ideas, most of which will likely never see implementation. Just a wild wishlist of CCP Soundwave.

          • http://twitter.com/Freebooted @Freebooted

            It seems that is indeed what you believe. Your creative powers of interpretation and extrapolation continue to astound.

        • Ship spinning 101

          I find it amusing that evenews24 is bashing anything… EON with actual news vs. Evenews24 being what the writers wish the world was… Filled with biased unfounded crap. I come here for the comedy in order to see how warped the next report will be lol

  • BrianOfNazerath

    its a stupid idea

  • brobot

    im a bot

    • Miner

      You stupid bot! Why are you not working?

  • http://www.staticmapper.com Raath

    "Since there is no way to set two ships flying in exactly the same direction automatically"

    Because aligning to a celestial object doesn't do this………

    • fenistil

      You are right… There is no way to do it, esp. if a ceptor is in the fleet as well who can make alignment spots to the miners at say a 1500km range. Should be good enough…

      And for those saying that grid does not extend that far: read upon the grid extension! Goons know how to do it – everyone can do it…

      • Suzume

        You won't always have a handy celestial if there's an optimal direction for harvesting… Guess that's a whole new reason for multiple TCU's!

        heh

      • nope

        for the record, gridfu is considered an exploit, if proven to be intentional.

        • way to be wrong

          Grid-fu is only an exploit regarding shrinking a POS grid so that it's not visible from the moon warpin at 0.

  • Dirk

    No miner with more than a single alt would ever call for mining to be more interactive. Unless they find a way to exponentially increase yield by increasing the "wow" factor of mining, most multi-alt miners won't want more interactivity. Increased interaction will only lead to fewer subscribed alt accounts. And I don't see why CCP would choose that route from a business perspective. So keep mining boring.

    As for the net theory: bah, it unnecessary. The point is to remove the completely passive method of extracting "moon goo" not to swing the pendulum completely to the other side of the work spectrum.

  • DeeDee

    So many people talking about bots. So few of them with experience botting.

    Spoiler: They can do a lot more than you think they can.

  • http://www.facebook.com/steve.hayman Steve Hayman

    "Some sort of electro-force thing" what if we used tractor beams? Also why just two ships? what if they did like spider tanking ships and all aimed their bit of the net at each other into a web and you could get more ships with a larger net and collect more goodies (a percentage of which goes to each involved ship every cycle) ?