Mabrick is a carebear. That’s the life he chooses. It isn’t a life forced upon him or one he wishes he could change. It’s what he wants to be. That said, don’t take him for noob. He’s been around the block a time or five. With over 15 years of MMO playing under his belt and a memory that reaches back to pencils and dice, he offers his insights into the not so virtual reality we call Eve Online.

Mabrick’s Mumblings: Alchemy – The Supposed Transformation Industry.

CCP Fozzie (I <B your name, man) today released his first developer post titled Tech is Fine L2P. Fortunately, this is a joke. Tech 2 production is not fine. For many of us, Tech 2 production is no longer a viable industry. Thanks to the Technetium Cartel, the price of Technetium derived modules has skyrocketed. If you can afford the high prices and pass the increase off to your customers, you could continue to earn a somewhat reduced living (hint, customers don’t like to absorb the entire cost increase.) But there are some modules that just aren’t available in enough quantity for everyone. That brings production to a screeching halt – believe me, I know.

CCP Fozzie clearly explains this is a game design issue. He claims CPP will resolve it over the next several updates starting soon. Putting aside all the obvious comments about this confirming certain views of the behavior that precipitated this dev blog, I want to discuss how it will 1) resolve the issue and 2) not really resolve the issue.

Alchemy is a nice solution. It will work similar to how invention worked to break the stranglehold on T2 production instigated by the BPO lottery system. Since I became a capsuleer after the original lotteries, I had almost no chance of getting into T2 production by myself. There was far more demand for T2 BPOs than any of the owners were even remotely interested in supplying unless you were already wealthy enough to make it worth their while. That excluded many industrialists from the T2 manufacturing business. 

Thus, CCP came up with an alternative route to T2 BPOs. Does this sound familiar? Anyway, invention is a laborious process. As the current situation shows us, those that have monopolies are disinclined to give them up. Invention changed the dynamic and gave the little guys an end-run. If I was willing to work a little harder, I could make a business out of T2 manufacturing and did. So did many others. Invention was a success as can be seen in Blake’s post on K162 two days ago. Because of this, there is no reason to believe that alchemy won’t work.

But it won’t take manufacturing back to where it was before the Technetium embargoes. Those days are long gone. It will still exclude the little guy. Read CCP Fozzie’s post carefully. He says, “Alchemy will kick in as a pressure valve in case prices of any moon mineral spike. As long as prices remain low there is no need to bypass the original mineral.” Translation: it will cost more to run the reactions than to buy the Technetium at a non-manipulated price. Just because CCP is giving non-OTEC manufactures the ability to restart their lines doesn’t mean it will be at the profit margins we enjoyed previously. It won’t be.

Then there is what CCP Fozzie doesn’t address. He completely leaves out the unmentioned requirement for alchemy. Where do reactions like alchemy run? Currently they only run in Player Owned Stations. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong (and I’m sure you will,) but to take advantage of this option you’ll have to have access to a POS. If you are in high-sec, you can forget ever making a profit by this route. As soon as it’s discovered you are an alchemist, someone will declare war against you and destroy your production capability. At a measly 50 mIsk cost for small corporations like mine, this is like taking candy from a baby. Believe me, there are those in New Eden that live for doing that.

And even if CCP decides to allow reactions within NPC stations, I am certain they will be at very unattractive prices and severely nerfed just like CCP has recently done to invention vis-a-vis data cores. There they also handed the “reward” to those taking the most “risk.” I’ve read the reports though. LP farming has no risks. I’m starting to seriously doubt the “greater reward for more risk” mantra.

So where does this current change leave the high-sec industrialist? Still at the mercy of null-sec corporations who will control the alchemy process just like they control moon goo I’m sad to say. CCP has stated again and again, including this post, they want the rewards to go to those who take the risks. That’s starting to sound like a copout. What I see is CCP trying to drive players into larger and larger corporations and alliances. Their marketing department spends their entire budget on emphasizing the social aspect of Eve Online. The developers are now spending all their time trying to force socialization through their mantra “more reward for more risk.” It seems obvious enough to me. It’s CCP’s call though. It’s their product. 

I just want to know when are they going to start being honest with those of us that prefer the lone wolf style of play? When will they stop pretending that they care for all the small corporations and the independent Industrialists that populate high-sec? They’ve really designed this change to allow –A- and NCDOT and the like to resist Goonswarm Federation and the rest of the Deklein Coalition. There is nothing in it for the rest of us – unless we want to sell our souls to someone else.

Fly careful.

- Mabrick

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  • Wasse

    This is a multiplayer game. Not a solo game. If you try to play solo, there are going to be areas of the game unavailable to you.

    Quoting the thread title – "l2p".

    • crymoar

      booohring.

  • Space Jam

    God forbid alliance level income stays at the alliance level and not spread out to everyone.

  • Fiasco

    L2Paragraph

  • Ididntknow

    So is this measure to make a difference but at the same time leave a reason to fight for reasources?

  • Dice

    Regarding the lone-wolf style of play: there's nothing wrong with it. Furthermore, anything which makes highly-profitable activities more active, less passive, and require more people to do safely, is actually a change which improves lone-wolf style of play. Why? Because there'll always be people who will attempt to engage in those highly profitable activities without the full security escort they really require to be safe. CCP aren't suggesting nerfing ordinary mining or missioning or solo pvp (as I mentioned earlier, I think decentralisation changes actually improve solo pvp, but I digress), what they (hopefully) want to do, is make something like Tech moon mining (which, lets be honest, no single lone-wolf style player could either participate in him-or-her-self or disrupt him-or-her-self) less passive, less protected, and less ridiculous. The real problem is that it's taken CCP so long to realise that massive, passive, centralised, easily protectable isk faucets are not a great idea…

  • No one important

    Confirming that small businesses have trouble competing with large businesses when it comes to selling commodities in the real world, too. EVE is a pretty decent sandbox. Want to be a lone wolf? Go for it. Just don't be surprised when you don't make trillions of ISK a month. (Same thing goes for PVPers…it takes a lot of skill to be a consistently good solo-PVPer…it's much easier to PVP with backup).

  • Marcus_McTavish

    Reactions will always be in a pos or something that you actually have to defend to avoid being a no-risk-free-isk thing like datacores WERE.

    Invention was never meant to be fair on even with Tech 2 Blueprints, and just as so, not have a Tech moon is not equal to having a Tech moon.

    Mab, you are thinking well within the box in terms of groups and play style. A lot of well-organized small and medium corporations and alliances can avoid your prophecy of "Goons will hurt me" by living in or basing out of wormholes. You can get your corp a C1 to C3 wormhole, maybe build a capital ship and be able to defend it, then you could start up a couple of reaction towers. Its quite profitable if you do it right.

    But besides that, only Platinum Technite will see any real change in price, and you can bet that CFC see any new towers with an alchemy setup, they will probably bash them, even though a super-obvious-double-alchemy Large tower only produces 10% of the output of a medium tower.

    CCP used Alchemy "nerf" against Technetium.
    It was not very effective….

  • FormerTowerDrone

    the idea that you can't have a highsec pos is laughable. I've ran some for several years with only once people shooting it to force us into supplying them with goodfights. Especially given the 24h warning you get on wardecs means you can simply anchor defenses for a whole day.
    that you can't use a pos solo very well since you'll be defending with your army of one… then yeah that is not an option but… well you're doing it wrong mate.

    having said that, you can do it solo very well too. large tower is cheap as, put one up with a month of fuel, 2 reactors and materials… after 2 weeks it's payed for itself and if it does get shot down, you won't have lost much. and if you get targetted by pirates gunning for your tower in 2 weeks time, you're doing something wrong or pissing on the wrong shoes :)

    it's entirely possible to run reactions in highsec or any sec really. However the main issue with alchemy is the amount of material you get out per hour, which is rather low. so if you want to produce a decent volume you'll likely end up having to run a lot of towers.

    • Fact

      Reactors don't run in highsec though…

      • FormerTowerDrone

        lolol good point.. been too long for me since I've been out there I guess

  • Jesus Saves Pilots

    Rewards to those who take the risks. CCP said a long time ago that it was their desire to get more people into Null Sec space and out of high sec. Those people who risk it all to venture into Null Sec whether part of a large or smaller alliance; should reap the rewards well over those being seen by high sec pub lords.

  • guest

    "Currently they only run in Player Owned Stations. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong (and I’m sure you will,)"

    Player Owned Structures*

    • M1k3y

      Starbases * iirc

  • Slothen

    Shitty post. Sure the alchemy proposal is total useless weaksauce, but don't pretend this is somehow actually a buff to nullsec entities. The highsec industrialist has always had to buy the complex reaction products on the market. If rising component costs are reducing the profit margins of the t2-goods producer, then the industrialist is doing it wrong . Pass the rise in cost onto the customer. If a high price reduces the demand for t2 goods, then switch to those t2 goods that aren't suffering a drop in demand (people may stop buying as many vagabonds if the price goes to high, but they won't stop needing t2 gyros and aucannons for their hurricanes). If you can't find good margins anywhere, get the hell out of the market, and the profit margins will recover for those who stay in. If there's a long term reduction in the demand for t2 goods caused by OTEC price-rigging, then those tech producers will either start selling tech at lower price, violating the cartel's agreement through market alts, or they'll be forced to start stockpiling their tech and other moon goo products, eventually resulting in a price crash.

    The highsec industrialist has always been forced to switch production to whatever good happens to be profitable. Sure this is harder to do with t2 production lines, but there should be no sympathy for a industrialist that stubbornly produces goods that have no profit margin.

    I don't mean to defend OTEC either, they are scum, tech is broken, and the proposed alchemy changes (as the numbers current stand) is a far cry from a kick in the balls.

    If other industrialists are undercutting you, then they're making a smaller margin too.

  • guest

    "I just want to know when are they going to start being honest with those of us that prefer the lone wolf style of play?"

    They already answered this. Eve is meant to maximize social interaction, thus room for the lone wolf style is proportional to how much social interaction it provides: almost nil.

    • Anonymouse

      There's plenty of lone sheep out there… err, I mean wolves… some of them just happen to have thousands of people following their orders…

  • Shattershark

    "If you are in high-sec, you can forget ever making a profit by this route."

    Indeed you can. Reactors have that nice "Restricted To Security Level Less Than 0.4" thing that you can see in reactor array's attributes.
    Class 1-2 wormhole with a forest of reactor POSes is entirely different thing, though.

    • Gobias Some Coffee

      Don't you get it? That's not ~solo friendly~ enough!

      • aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

        It's a MMO, not Sim City 1

        • Anonymouse

          Actually, eve and simcity have a lot in common… :P

      • Shattershark

        Actually that just means that CCP tries to drive the sandbox by introducing and tweaking alchemy to set material prices at desired level.
        And they do it in such a way, that only large 0.0 or deeply entrenched WH entities will be able to use this feature.

        I'm not complaining though, for me as industrialist it doesn't change anything. That is as long as CCP stays out of "fixing" industry.

        • Gobias Some Coffee

          I think that's sort of the point, though. They didn't want to drastically change the dynamic of moon mining (i.e. that it's the domain of either 0.0 alliances or WH entities if they so desire), they just wanted to reduce the disparity between tech-holding alliances and non-tech-holders, so that while tech will still have an advantage, non-tech holders could at least be competitive.

          Whether or not this does it, hard to say. Either way, this gives them a formula they can tweak if need be, and it doesn't blow up the entire moon mining industry and create a new Tech situation by accident. That's a start, at least.

          • Anonymouse

            There's nothing to mine on wh moons…

          • hawkeei

            Unless you are mining Tech, the raw materials you can pull out of a moon is just gravy. The real ISK is in doing the high demand complex reactions.

          • Urziel99

            which you still have to freight into the hole to run. Not exactly my idea of a good time.

          • Gary

            There is no moon mining in wormholes. That was by design IIRC with the express purpose of dissuading large 0.0 alliances from completely dominating wormhole space.

    • Sold

      qft, welcome to losechs

  • aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    Nice wall of text, friend.

  • the martini

    I, too, want to be able to sit in my corner , run reactions inhighsec NPC stations and still get the income of a techmoon.

    Mabrick confirmed for worst Eve blogger.

  • S'totan

    LOL. i have no idea why you are saying T2 production isnt profitable… lol. I have 2 toons running 10 production slots each mass producing modules and i clear 11 bil profit a month passive with just those 2. At current prices there is an avg 37.5% mark up from the production cost of T2 ships, to the sold value, and for modules its like between 200-400%. I.E. 200mm auto cannon II cost round about 250k isk to build, yet they sell on buy orders for fluctuating 900k-1.2 mil.
    If you arnt making a profit doing T2 production using invention you are doing it wrong….

    • Slothen

      with the clickfest that is invention, its hardly passive. Just sayin'.

  • ViperRum

    A bit late to the game….
    http://www.evenews24.com/2012/05/13/viper-rum-a-m

    I suggested this awhile ago.

    • ViperRum

      Here are the first few graphs,

      Viper Rum: A Modest Proposal to the Technetium Problem

      In a word, alchemy. Right now prices for technetium are sky high and the Mittani seems to be intent on creating a cartel to control just about all of the technetium production so prices could conceivably go even higher. Now, if this situation is viewed by CCP as an imbalance then a very modest proposal that could address the problem would be to introduce a new alchemy reaction, one for platinum technite.

      Right now to produce platinum technite you need 100 units of platinum and 100 units of technetium. With alchemy you usually bypass the more expensive input—i.e. technetium. Instead you’d use a Rarity 32 moon mineral like vanadium or chromium. So for example suppose you have the new alchemy platinum technite reaction use 1,000 units of chromium and 100 units of platinum and that this results in 1 unit of unrefined platinum technite that can be refined into 40 units of platinum technite and 80 units of platinum. At current market prices at the end of 30 days (assuming you keep the process running that entire time) you’d make enough platinum technite to sell for around 1.37 billion isk. Back out 370 million for running the tower and you are at around a billion isk a month for minimal work once the set-up is done. This would scale linearly as you add towers.

      • Killerbee

        … Just like it was talked about back in 2008 by CCP…

        The biggest issue i have right now is that in order for reactors to work, they have to be placed in 0.3 sec space and lower, afaik. This means that the only industrialists are the ones that venture into these woods and back, presuming that the reactions will be worth the cost.

        I think the goal of alchemy is simply to create a much more diversified supply, but when that supply can only be generated in the same space… completely defeats the purpose of what's trying to be accomplished

        • hawkeei

          If you can run a covert cloak, running into 'these woods' aka low sec and back is not too hard. If you know what you are doing as an industrialist, you should be able to afford a jump freighter in no time, making it super easy.

  • CANADA SUCKS

    Wish some of the other major alliances had like a CIA type initiative to topple the governments of the OTEC owners. Or incite a civil war, or get some fake reports of Weapons of Mass Destruction to rally an entire world to enter and de-stabilize the entire region.

    Frankly, I don't want CCP to fix the OTEC problem, and I live in the south. Much like the spirit of EVE I think if its a problem the players should band together and fix it.

    I do like the solution CCP Fozzie came up with. It doesn't stop the hold of Tech in the north, but it does help the enemies of those in the north from contributing further to the pockets of the tech holders. Don't think about Fozzie's solution as a way to relieve the monopoly hold on tech, rather, to help sending all our money to them.

    • Sreggin Wej

      "or get some fake reports of Weapons of Mass Destruction to rally an entire world to enter and de-stabilize the entire region. "

      Like pretending the OTEC own a huge supercapital fleet? Nobody is going to swallow that.

    • Anonymouse

      The problem is that whoever forces Goons out will be the next Goons if they take the space… As long as tech remains 90% in the north, we are always going to have this imbalance…

      If you really want to see young alliances take off and shake up the nulsec powers every once in awhile, give us reliable and steady zydrine and megacyte supplies in highsec besides module reprocessing. Then we could actually build a fleet and come out to play :)

  • hurr

    You know its a joke when even Mabrick knows its a joke. Another CCP fail.

  • Eve Pilot

    bringing alchemy to eve? Just another of the many measures to turn eve into WoW-in-Space

  • hirrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

    "So where does this current change leave the high-sec industrialist? Still at the mercy of null-sec corporations who will control the alchemy process just like they control moon goo I’m sad to say. CCP has stated again and again, including this post, they want the rewards to go to those who take the risks"

    Did you forget there is something between highsec and nullsec dooshbag? Its called lowsec, reactors can work there. Also no one gives a flying fuck about a reaction pos, there not very profitable, and as an attacker i wont get shit from it.

  • Alifikduzimir

    Two corrections to the article:
    1) Tech prices would have risen even without OTEC (they did in fact long before), which is more a mutual non-agression pact than price fixing or embargo. The underlying problem here was that Tech moons are a limited resource whose extraction can't be scaled to adapt to growing player numbers (increased demand).
    2) The article makes it sound as if alchemy was new, which it isn't. It's been around since 2008, there just wasn't a reaction for Tech.

  • eve pilot

    mabrick finally wakeing up to what the whole cartel is about. tech moons in the hands of a few alliances not only dictating the price but also gradually starving indy corps in empire of tech2 ship and module production to the point these empire indy corps will have 2 choices join goonswarm or their pets or find new ways of makeing ends meet in empire with T1 ship and module production.also this handfull of alliances will have an advantage over hostile alliances without tech moons as T2 ships and modules become increasingly rare in hostile regions of 0.0 while the cartel churn out T2 ships and modules for their own use giving them a tech advantage over the said hostile alliances for any future invasions.the mittani creation of the otec cartel was for one reason and one reason only and its their mantra "goons are not here to fuck up the game just here to fuck up your game" and its succeding because the one power bloc that should exist in eve doesnt exist yet and thats an empire bound super alliance or coaliton of alliances to keep this in check while the carebears in empire squabble for goon moon goo scraps and get taken to the cleaners for the privelige.untill a huge empire coalition of alliances is there to keep things in check then your fucked

    • Sold

      I can haz punctuation?

  • ViperRum

    Hmmm in looking into the details, I don't see why all the hurf-n-blurf, the alchemy change is totally meaningless. Anyone dumb enough to do it will almost surely lose money, even if they do it in null sec and have a POS on a moon with Cobalt and Platinum.

  • Their going to change moon mining, perhaps you can lone wolf it up doing that.

  • CFC Pilot

    Seriously…Deklein Coalition? You people never learn.

    • lawl

      hello deklein coalition pilot

  • Player

    Because getting in fleet to defend your space, building caps and supers to defend your structures, shipping fuel and products across the region and to Jita, mining and hauling to build fuel blocks, structures, and ships are all totally passive activities.

    Successful moon mining for Tech takes the combined activity of hundreds if not thousands of players. If it's not difficult enough in your opinion, go and make it more difficult. If that's too much for you to do, then STFU.

    • Drunk on Tech?

      The difference is that in any other region of the universe, the same logistics/production line applies, but tech turns out several times the money for the same effort. It also gives the tech-controllers the reigns to bottleneck T2 production.

      With that monetary advantage, it quickly becomes an uphill battle for a force to uproot whoever is controlling the tech moons. So after a small period of time, the system makes it more and more difficult for the non-tech holders.

  • Player

    Also, if T2 is too expensive, you can switch to Navy, Pirate, or T3 instead. Or use T1 if you're cheap.

    • keep crying

      there fixing tech..deal with it…dont like it, "then STFU"

  • Lugalbandak

    whats the fuzz about it all? im lone wolf doing t2 manufacturing , sure moon poo is expensive now and i need to buy it all , sure my pos cost fuel too keep my labs running for copy & invention , but also the t2 mods are much more expensive (most of them anyway) so i still make a nice profit , if not more since tech cartel…

  • I lost count

    I like how they say risk for reward yet low sec tends to be more dangerous than null ever is and you get crap for anoms, ores, moons, ect.

  • Elloise Kashada

    You seem to consider it "fair" that a single player or a small corp should be able to compete on an even ground with thousand player alliances. If you don't want to "sell your soul", which is just your pejorative way of seeing cooperation, you still have many other venues of making very good income through industry. Maybe not T2 industry, but afaik industry isn't only about T2 production.

  • OldxPlayer

    Just resign yourself to the fact that CCP is catering to a particular segment of player, and all is fine. Of course they will severely limit their attraction and monies to the RL world at large.

  • shit blog

    0.0 comes with its advantages that require hundreds of players working together to achieve. why should a solo highsec pilot have the same advantages? stupid highsec carebear.

    • wat

      Shit game going down the toilet moreso every year. Enjoy your erepublik space faggotry. I yawned and opened a porn tab.

  • WTFWTF

    WOW is this WAY ->>>>

  • FAgetridofyourspies

    At a measly 50 mIsk cost for small corporations like mine, this is like taking candy from a baby. Believe me, there are those in New Eden that live for doing that.

    What I see is CCP trying to drive players into larger and larger corporations and alliances. Their marketing department spends their entire budget on emphasizing the social aspect of Eve Online.

    This is a social game, pl go to wow or somthing with these carebear thoughts, learn to play the game like the rest of us, you eigenheimer

    • FAgetridofyourspies

      oh,.. forgot, no risk no reward, you just want to have a easy cashcow

      • MajorAhole

        Kind of like you nullbear crybabies. How much risk is there to ratting, mining, POS mining and so on in null sec? Unless you are on a border, actualy a lot less than in High Sec. So please, fail on nullbear. Remember, you can't make 2.5 bil a day in high sec unless you are a market beast and even then, ummmm yeah. You can do it ratting with a titan in null sec and that is just the bounties.

        Fail on.

        • Jesus loves you

          2.5 bil pr. day ratting in a titan? Are you stuck in 2009?

  • Dilletante

    At the Eve Online website 12 'professions' are identifed.

    6 are declared as group
    3 are declared as solo
    3 have no declaration

    Doesn't strike me that even CCP are saying that you must join a group as the only valid form of play.

    • Gary

      Watch what they do, not what they write on their promo websites.

  • Sebastian Hoch

    Why don't you adapt to one of the many different ways to make isk in the game, including lot of market based ones that don't require you to ever talk to another human being let along join their corp? It is absurd that you want to the game to cater to your exact notion of what should make you isk, just because that niche perhaps was a good one at one time. Evolve or perish–that counts for High sec care bares as much as to bitter null sec vets with personal tech moons.

  • mrSeb

    The Alliances who have managed to come to a diplomatic conclusion of forming the OTEC should not be penalised for it. This situation with the Tech is nothing more than a diplomatic victory, which surely enough will not last.It's a temporary situation. Nothing new should be intorduced to change the current situation with tech mineral.

    • AsymmetricWarfare

      Actually, they *should* be penalized under the practice of developing a restrictive monopolistic cartel. Modern economies have laws in place to limit this to prevent exactly what's happening with OTEC. They get rich and the customer pays the price. Read up on the Sherman Act, it dates back to 1890 in the U.S. You can bet the OTEC architects are well aware of this, and to some degree are laughing through their chinbeards at CCPs attempt to keep hypercapitalism "fair" – because it isn't, not even remotely.

      • Any Guy

        Sandbox should have no penalties, especially with null sec harvested materials.

        Keep Nulsec FREE!

  • usexermem

    <33)

  • bridabunun

    it's unique, beacouse it's funny