[spoiler show="Editor's Note"]He is one of the most active bloggers in EVE and has some good insights which go beyond the typical EN24 scope. We are proud to present selected stories from this magnificent internet spaceship blogger. If you would like to read more we invite you to visit his blog here.[/spoiler]
Jester’s Trek: Hunters and Pray
That said, I got accused by Goons all the way up to Mittens himself of lying when I said Goons had been whining about the Jade Constantine mutual “foreverwar”. That was a ridiculous enough accusation that I just contented myself to point right back at the very threads Jade had started on the EVE-O forums and on FHC as evidence.
At that point, the Goon narrative changed to “OK, well, we weren’t whining. We were pointing out that Jade was exploiting a badly-designed game mechanic.” I guess I hardly need to explain why Goons of all people complaining about someone exploiting badly-designed game mechanics is a weaponized level of irony that could flatten whole cities. Then Goons adjusted their tack slightly to “Jade was exploiting a badly-designed game mechanic, and we were looking forward to it!” And that’s where the narrative seems to be right now.
Now keep in mind, what Jade did was new in only one way: he made The Star Fraction’s war with the Goons mutual. In that way, he invoked the badly thought-out mutual war and surrender mechanics on the aggressor side of the equation. I certainly recognize that there were dozens of corps getting themselves involved in dozens of war-decs that they previously weren’t involved in. But to my knowledge, Jade chaining himself to the Goon war-dec was the new tactic here and that’s what I wrote about. That, in fact, was why I called the post “Total war”: it invoked the 20th century change in warfare around refocusing your entire economy toward belligerence.
“Dog-piling” (as it’s started to be called) into a non-mutual war still leaves the aggressor in the driver’s seat: they can end the war any time they like without surrendering, or any time the number of allies on the defender’s side becomes too much. All the aggressor has to do is stop paying the bill, and the war ends on their terms. However, a mutual war-dec takes the aggressor out of the driver’s seat. In a curious way, it puts the defender in the position of power in the war. The aggressor can no longer end the war whenever they like. I like that… but the in-game mechanics still need a lot of work.
Anyway, the drama is still sweeping back and forth from the EVE-O forums to Failheap to the blogs and back. I thought it would be interesting to focus on the takes of four other bloggers that have written about this lately.
I’m not sure how to describe the “sides” on this debate, so I’ll just say on one “side” of this is an almost rabid post by Poetic Stanziel. Poetic, for reference, is not war-dec’ed by the Goons at this time. Poetic starts by using a rather Goon-like expression to indicate that anyone who believes that the changes CCP is making are a response to the Goon/Jade situation is dumb. That, I do in fact agree with.(1) The rest of the post is an interesting contradiction, though. It first argues that anyone who draws a war-dec on themselves deserves the consequences of that, essentially arguing that unfairness is a building block of EVE.(2)
But then the post seems to argue that the ally system should be fair to professional EVE merc corps as well. For them, I have to honestly say that I don’t have a lot of pity. As I’ve said on this blog before, if someone competes with you, beat them by being better… not by complaining you’re being competed with. Too many corps jumping into as defenders in war-decs? Get hired by proving to be better than they are and by proving you have a track record of success during war-decs. This ain’t the first time CCP has thrown a giant monkey wrench into this or that corp’s means of making ISK. Hell, it isn’t even the first time they’ve done it this year.
On the other “side” of the fence is an almost equally rabid post by Mord Fiddle over at Fiddler’s Edge. For reference, Mord is war-dec’ed by the Goons at this time. Mord’s take lately is that Mittens is still smarting over being removed from the CSM and is lashing out at anyone that he perceives as a personal enemy. I find it hard to argue with that, either. But Mord does slip too far over into the conspiracy side of things. Still this post and a post he wrote a few days ago about Mittens himself are well worth your time.
In the middle is this well-written post by Mabrick of Mabrick’s Mumblings.(3) For reference, Mabrick is war-dec’ed by the Goons at this time. Mabrick does a really terrific job — probably better than the job that I did — of laying down the major benefit to the ally system. It makes declaring war on someone an inherently risky act with consequences. One of the perceived down-sides of the war-dec system that I referenced above is the perception that the aggressor has all of the power in the relationship. In-war allies were intended to put at least some power in the hands of the defender.
Happily, the numbers for bringing in war allies are now out. I was a little bit concerned to learn that bringing in additional allies will increase the cost on an exponential scale. Being an aggressor multiple times only increases cost on a geometric scale, after all. But the first ally is still free and the second, third, and fourth only cost 10, 20, and 40 million, respectively. These are quite reasonable costs — they could even be increased a bit in my view — so I’m feeling better about the changes myself. And Mabrick makes a good argument in his post for supporting the changes as well.
Finally, I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the take of Yuki 0nna at The White Rose Conventicle. For reference, White Rose was war-dec’ed by the Goons. I say “was” because Yuki 0nna has shut down WRC and has left EVE entirely. So now nobody gets to read Yuki’s take on it. But I think Yuki’s take on it is clear enough despite that. Now granted, I wasn’t Yuki’s biggest fan… but WRC didn’t deserve that.
Let’s hope that nobody involved kills themselves, shall we?
(1) For the record, the Rolodex jab I made in my own post was, again, intended to tweak the collective Goon nose a little.
(2) I’ll have more to say about this on Monday.
(3) It finally convinced me to pull the trigger and add him to my Must Read Blogs list. You’ll find him over there on the right.
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tl;dr I was just trolling. Honest.
Nice save, Ripard.
Stop postinf ffs.
You're a fucking disgrace.
Says the anonymous poster.
I agree, I hope mittens doesn't off himself. That would break my fucking heart.
Carebears. Batshit evil and insane.
PvPers raise families, contribute to society, pay their taxes.
Carebears, they dream of PvPers getting killed or maimed in real life.
"Carebears. Batshit evil and insane.
PvPers raise families, contribute to society, pay their taxes.
Carebears, they dream of PvPers getting killed or maimed in real life."
Sounds like your MOM forgot to sprikle the lithium on your Wheaties this morning Poetic?
Might I draw your attention to one Alex "The Mittani" Gianturco who quite recently and publicly "dreamed of an Eve player getting killed".
A spacious, prejudice and pointless comment.
Crawl back under your rock.
Nope, Mord Fiddle is not wardec-ed by goonswarm. He wishes he was. No one gives a shit about him.
If true why are you spending so much time rubbishing his posts?
With regard to your tears in Jester's comments with regard to my allying myself with one of the bloggers you've targeted and moderating out 'all' your comments at Fiddler's Edge:
The only comment of yours I have moderated out was a rather vulgar personal insult that contributed nothing to the discussion at hand.
You may troll on the forums and in Twitter. At "Fiddler's Edge" there is a slightly higher standard of intellectual discourse.
I am grieved that you feel silenced and repressed by my refusal to post your insult on my blog and intimidated by my one-person corporation. Alas, if Mittens had not undertaken to intimidate Eve bloggers, we should not have come to this unpleasant turn.
As soon as Mittens ends his targeting of Eve bloggers I shall happily stand down. Then puppies and unicorns shall frolic and gambol happily in the meadows of New Eden, and Goons shall once again be safe from my righteous anger.
I think you mean prey, hunters and prey.
Actually I think CCP Hilmar right now is praying this will blow over right now…
If I was CCP Soundwave I'd be worrying about my job TBH
Why would Soundwave be worried about his job, when he's just overseen the launch of EVE's two most succesful expansions?
You call Inferno succcessfull? lolololololol The Edsil was successfull too, huh?
Well it sure as hell isn't Tyrannis / Incarna
But nevertheless I defer to your quite obviously expert knowledge of game development office practices and performance targets
I think this latest Tempest in a Teacup is showing that Eve's rage level beginning to build steam and CCP's next faux paus is liable to be the straw that breaks the Camels' Back and break out into a riot. Appropriate since the anniversery of the Jita riots is upcomming.
We could stir thing up by posting "Tic Toc Sound-waffe" in his threads.
Remind him hes running out of time to fix things, save his job.
To be honest, this may happen. enough people are enraged at CCP about rolling back war declaration mechanics essentially to a pre-Inferno state. Sure, they changed Factional warfare, and that was good, but they said they'd change war declarations for the better. not Mess it up and then completely fuck it up trying to fix it (pardon my french).
You want to see a fuckup just look a the numbers running Incursions now after thier 'fix'
As usual, well said Ripard. Too many 'merc' corps are bitching too loudly right now and need to HTFU a bit and get better at EVE. This game isnt always gonna be fair noobtards, this time it YOUR turn. How'dya like them apples?
If u think you r so big u can just sit on any small alliance, this is the kind of mechanic that makes u uncomfortable, and therefore DESPERATLY need in EVE right now. What a shame Soundwave is sticking his giant nose in things again. This guy will go down in EVE as the worst DEV evah.
Soundwave:"oh shit this mechanic is stirring the pot?!? Dfuq wit dat, IMA chargin' mah NERFZORS!"
"Drunk words are sober thoughts"
You misspelled your title, fuckwad.
Regular readers of my blog will recognize that I have a fondness for word games. The title spelling is intentional.
Yay posting more shit people don't care about. Of course we all have to lie to bring in views. PS Heard mitanni was preggo, please enlighten us.
Let me guess, you are one of the people that gives so few fucks that your whining posts are only proof that zero fucks were given.
So Mittens is a woman ? That would explain her massive bitching about beeing kicked out of the csm
Btw, warfare changing to a state of "Total War" happened in the 19th century during the American Civil War.
The things I find most amusing about all of this is that some people (Mord Fiddle's post as an example) are saying that "Many corporations and alliances joined the war on Star Fraction alliance's side".
Nobody really joined on The Star Fraction's side, they just avoided having to pay their usual wardec fees to dec a large 0.0 alliance.
Also, most large 0.0 alliances are under one wardec or another constantly. The billions that GSF have lost in this war is not a new phenomenon, it's the same as all the other wardecs against GSF (or any other nullsec alliance for that matter) throughout history – stupid people undocking expensive stuff from trade hubs with an active wardec.
It's not a punishing blow against GSF, it's not an "embarrassment of Goonswarm", it's not scorching The Mitanni's knickers, it's simply par for the course. Anybody who has the slightest experience with empire based wardecs on large nullsec alliance can see that.
Damage Control, good sir.
Why are you trying to mend it if there was no wound to begin with?
It is not the action, but the reaction that determines you.
I'm an enemy of the Goons, in another 0.0 alliance, and I completely concur with this assessment. All large 0.0 alliances are under a constant rotating parade of wardecs. And we all have our dopey members doing risky things in Hisec, making it profitable for the mercs (really just licensedl pirates) to keep renewing.
Infinite time dec is stupid, true but:
Why are all the 0.0 blobbers always saying "risk risk risk" but when there's a little risk in what they do they cry like slapped bitches?
Mechanisms to stop constant stupid wardecs – I also agree. Its just an exploiting and griefing tool.
But if you start it – you should risk and risk hard. The aggressor SHOULD be liable to get dog-piled and to dog-pile back if the defender's numbers grow too much.
If you start it, you must risk.
To quote The Mittani (the same Twitter quote posted in Jade's wall-o-text):
"GSF doesn't give a shit about hisec being wardecced. If we could have ALL of hisec at war, we'd do it in a heartbeat."
The only real difference between a highsec wardec and nullsec is highsec doesn't allow bubbles or cynos. Goons occupy nullsec where anybody can shoot them at any time for any reason, and that goes both ways. Nullsec is like a permanent wardec with added ways to be able to kill each other.
The only reason Goons (and anybody else who lives in nullsec) don't get to shoot people in highsec all the time is because they DON'T have a wardec against them.
The other real difference is supercaps. Go wage war against a large 0.0 alliance with no moms or titans. See how far you get.
I was kind of inferring the capitals part with the cyno bit.
Also, I wasn't really talking about waging war in nullsec, just that you are allowed to shoot people in nullsec much like you are able to shoot people under a wardec. A "wardec" and actually waging a nullsec war are so fundamentally different concepts it's not funny – you can never fully kick somebody out of their space with a wardec in highsec. Not that it's really "their" space in the first place.
"That, in fact, was why I called the post “Total war”: it invoked the 20th century change in warfare around refocusing your entire economy toward belligerence."
For the record, there's a pretty strong argument for this behavior originating back in the late 18th century, with the Congress system keeping it in check until World War I boiled over. Some historians even go so far back as the Hundred Years War for the origins of "total war', though I personally think that's stretching it.
On a less historical, more Eve related note, I understand both sides of argument. I come down more on CCP's side though. I figure that if another alliance reallllyy wants in on a war, they can still get in on it – they just need to pay their ally the cost for their joining (if I'm understanding this right). Maybe the cost shouldn't be exponential, but the mechanic makes sense, at least to me.
Some military historians peg Shrerman's devastating march through the Conederate south during the American Civil War as the start of Total War doctrinal thinking.
I definitely wouldn't deny that Sherman's march is a prime example of total war, but I don't know that the case can be made for it predating something like the wars in the Vendee during the French Revolution. They really are striking similar, except the Vendee was a good 70 years prior to the American Civil War. Heck, the term itself predates Sherman, theoretically originating with Clausewitz, who in turn (I argue) was inspired by Revolutionary and Napoleonic ideology and practice of mobilizing an entire population, both economically and ideologically, for war.
As for putting it earlier than that, I think it just becomes a numbers game where historians can throw around "Well, this percent of the estimated GDP of the state was involved in the new military apparatus", which smacks heavily of anachronism (I'm looking at you, Geoffrey Parker).
That reminds me this:
"When you want something nerfed(repaired?) use it againts Goons"
"Wars start when you wish, but they do not end when you want." Read machiavel, you CCP ignorants.
I see Goon damage control is swarming here, with every Goon post I see rubbishing and trying to bury something the more convinced I am of its truth.
Let me see if I got this right what you are really saying is'
If I continue to write shit daily about how Mittani is an ass
1. Riv will publish me.
2. more people will read me.
3. I'll be more important.
all clear now
"I guess I hardly need to explain why Goons of all people complaining about someone exploiting badly-designed game mechanics is a weaponized level of irony that could flatten whole cities."
I like goons, but this is p. funny
Again, please point to the post, and perhaps quote, the "whining". Please: quote it. No, really.
Wait, wars in EVE are no longer, merry-merry-carebear-fairness land?
EVE is a simulation of real life, you think Germany asked Poland if they wanted a 24 hour notice, or allies?
When someone threatens your way of life, you either adapt…. or die. You get to chose.
PS complaining is wasting time, praying to God that you wont have to change.
ho.. ho.. ho..