If you have been following the scandal, Jade Constantine was the igniting force behind the resulting “emergent gameplay” which came about with the new war declaration mechanics. Jade Constatine posted the following counter-riposte to those who dismissed the accusations of GoonSwarm Federation pressure on CCP Games to quickly nerf the newly imposed mechanics as mere tinfoil hattery. Read on, make a judgement by yourselves, and comment accordingly.

Eve Online Inferno Scorches the Mittani’s Knickers; CCP Turns Down the Heat

So boys and girls, the second great scandal of 2012 in Eve has struck over the last couple of days when the implications of the Inferno wardec allies system led to just the sort of emergent gameplay we’d been reading about CCP developers praising to great heights during Burn Jita and Hulkageddon.

But First a Little Background

At fanfest 2012, the leader of Goonswarm alliance and chairman of the CSM (elected player council) got drunk on stage and ended up calling for a fellow EVE player to be driven out of the game and encouraged to “kill himself.” There was uproar, huge scandal in the gaming press, massive threadnaughts on the EVE Online forums, and eventually The Mittani was driven from office, and was fired and banned for 30 days after his attempted resignation from the chair didn’t satisfy CCP. It’s fair to say The Mittani was pretty livid at this outcome and while tweeting and blogging about being “thrown under the bus” by CCP he made his plans for revenge on those who had spoken out against him publicly.

Mittani’s “ministry of love” initiative was a plan for endless empire wardecs on vocal opponents of this behaviour at fanfest and sold to his membership as appropriate revenge for him losing the bully-pulpit of the CSM chair. There is plenty of factual evidence of just how ‘mad’ he got available for download on the internet – ‘State of the Goonian’ addresses and general speeches to the troops all make this pretty clear. Mittani wanted to hit back at the people who had dared criticise his behaviour and he wanted CCP to step back and not interfere as he unleashed his goons on Jita and Hulkaggeddon – two wide-trumpeted paragon-events of emergent sandbox gameplay.

So it was to nobody’s great surprise that once Inferno hit the Mittani laid out his wardecs against anyone he perceived to be an outspoken foe of this people. Honda Accord were targeted because CSM Issler Dainz makes that alliance her home, Star Fraction was targeted because it’s my alliance, several other smaller entities were also placed in the crosshairs due to Mittani’s dislike of bloggers saying bad things about the Goons in Eve online.

Inferno had brought a number of interesting things to the wardec system: first CCP had patched out the loopholes for wardec evasion and jumping ship. Next they’d increased the cost to wardec a large entity while keeping it cheap to wardec small targets, they’d also given some teeth to the mutual wardec option and allowed it to lock-in an attacker for the first time in Eve’s history (needing an agreed surrender to then break the war) and most interesting of all, it had introduced an wardec assistance “market” where if you got war-decced you could now advertise “help needed” and people could offer to join the war for a variable fee. All pretty fascinating it did have the potential to be a brutal centrepiece of the summer expansion.

Early Rumbling of Discontent

But all wasn’t happy in wardec-land. The CCP devblogs made it clear that the developers hadn’t really thought terribly well about the implications of some of these features. The permanent lock-in of allies into a defensive dec was an obvious problem. CCP didn’t know what to do about allies involved in mutual decs, and various representatives from the EVE Online “mercenary community” were loudly complaining that the potential for cheap (or free) allies for defensive decs would undercut their attractiveness in the market.

This “mercenary community” is a bit delusional unfortunately. They seem to have misunderstood what exactly people want mercs for in EVE Online. Time and again we’ve heard that free defence offers from trade hub raiding chancer corps will price the mercs out of the market. But who really pays a merc to do random PVP at trade hubs in Eve? The answer is “nobody.” This niche has been filled for years by outfits like Privateers and The Orphanage who will wardec your foes in hisec to gank them at trade hubs for the price of the wardec. Nothing more, nothing less. “Serious Professional Mercenaries™” were never able to compete with that and they never will be able to compete with that.

When people go to hire a mercenary in EVE Online it’s to do something other than randomly camping undock in Jita 4-4. Its POS takedowns, POS defence, CO removal, 0.0 area denial, targeted assassinations and serious work. Stuff that takes effort, that’s hard to do, that isn’t necessary fun consequence-free PVP. This is the kind of thing they get paid billions of ISK a week for, not randomly camping the trade hubs with Tornados and popping capsules.

Undeterred by these realities however the “mercenary community” headed up by some of their CSM reps decided that the reason their in-game corps couldn’t land a decent contract was not that they weren’t offering the right services but because they were being undercut by a host of new “mom and pops trade hub raiding” outfits that had popped up and were offering to ally on every hisec war for free.

“What was needed”(they argued) was a complete nerfing of the ally system so that people could not count on significant free (or cheap) allies and they’d need to come to the professionals instead! Great plan perhaps, but it doesn’t really explain why people would start paying billions a week to let lazy merc corps engage in “fun pvp” at the trade hubs.

And of course at the other end of the scale we had the very large alliances now looking at the situations of their wardecs and wondering where the near endless stream of free allies to their targets would end. TEST alliance representatives were the first to voice some rumbling through their CSM, but gradually we had Goons coming out of the woodwork and questioning a system which they thought should have been “fixed” entirely in their favour but seemed to have a certain potential for the underdog fighting back that nobody had paid that much attention too in the planning.

Honda Accord vs Goons/TEST alliance

This was the first truly impressive defensive “dogpile” – now, bare in mind, Goons and TEST pay 100m or so each for these decs per week. It’s the tiniest drop in the ocean for the two largest alliances in game and Mittani (and his TEST puppet) declared these would be “forever wars” that would exist on whatever alliance Issler Dainz should inhabit as long as she kept playing eve.

Honda Accord decided to ask for assistance in the new Inferno Wardec system and soon offers of assistance were flooding in. The accord attracted dozens of free allies to both decs (they could have been charged but this is a free market economy) and the “serious mercenaries” had no specific talent or skillset that made Honda wish to employ them in addition for this role. Both Goons and Test alliance got literally crushed in hisec and lost many many times the isk value that Honda and their free allies suffered, despite the total weight of numbers still remaining massively in favour of the nullsec powers. Test specifically began to complain about this situation. (They wanted the ability to “grief” Honda Accord specifically, not to get “griefed” in turn by Honda’s allies).

CSM Summit Iceland – Wardec Meeting.

Currently we don’t know that much about this meeting. The specifics will come out in a few weeks with the CSM minutes. What we do know is that the situation of Inferno wardecs, the Inferno allies system, and the “plight” of the “mercenary profession” was raised as a priority and various fixes to the problem were debated. The fix that would ultimately be placed onto the test server was apparently disliked by all (or all bar one) of the CSM present depending on who’s recollection we are going by.

Now the irony here is that CCP Soundwave eventually decided on a course of action that would make several sweeping alternations (nerfs) to the Inferno wardec system that have currently got a lot of the community in an outcry because the implication on the game is a massive advantage to large alliances specifically.

But whispers from the CSM are coming out that it “could have been much worse.” Alekseyev Karrde (NOIR mercenaries) for example apparently wanted a fix that more or less removed the allied system from the game in order to make Mercenary corps the only people you could get on your side in defence of an incoming wardec. This to push the somewhat delusional belief that people would start paying “serious mercenary” rates to defend against 100m isk incoming “grief decs” from large 0.0 alliances.

So it might be that Soundwave inadvertently spared us the worst of the changes the “mercenary profession”CSM’s wanted to foist on us. Seems incredible to look at it this way – but the real tragedy is that the CSM itself was so massively packed with large alliance/merc protectionist candidates it couldn’t look at the bigger picture and propose a workable compromise that would benefit the whole of Eve Online not just their own petty little interest groups.

Goonswarm vs Star Fraction wardec (the scandal explodes)

So Mittani got round to wardeccing the Star Fraction. I had after all been an outspoken critic of his behaviour at Fanfest 2012 and bouts of drunken internet bullying and had been on the receiving end of Goonswarm harassment in and out of game since 2008 when I ran my own CSM campaign to become the first chairman of the player council.

But I’d seen the example of Honda Accord and saw another opportunity in the Inferno Wardec system that I perceived Mittani had overlooked. “Mutual War.”

A little background is again in order:

Previous to Inferno wardecs in Eve Online were widely perceived as a “griefer’s charter” or “pay to grief” system. Though this is not a view I shared, I can understand why people saw it that way because the problem was – wardecs are essentially a consequence-free tactic for the aggressor. You declare war, you pay the bill, you may or may not fight the war, you may or may not go looking for the enemy and any time you want out of the war you just stop paying. There is no penalty to the attacker for doing this and no way the defender can punish you for an unwise wardec. Advantages were generally in favour of the attacker and most outmatched defenders would simply run away, skip corp/alliance do their logistics out of organization and generally play the boredom card to respond.

Even mutual war (where the defender decides to “double down” and let the attack stop paying) had no real consequence because the attack can still drop it – only difference being a slight wording change in the end of war mails (surrender rather than concord invalidates) – but no fiscal penalty of any kind.

But with inferno – well, things were looking much more tasty – because making the war Mutual meant that now the attacker had no way to leave the war without making a formal contract surrender to the defender that could include ISK and needed to the accepted by the enemy before the war could end.

My Inferno War tactics

So then, I combined the Honda defensive dog-pile of trade hub raiders with a declaration of mutual war. Implication being that Goonswarm would never get out of the war without my say-so and that any corporation or alliance in New Eden that wanted a piece of the largest alliance in the game could join the war for free. I made a post about it, I explained my thoughts and understanding of the wardec system and I invited allies. I considered this a great test of emergent gameplay and an important demonstration of CCP’s commitment to a level playing field where the little guy can sometimes turn the table on the big fish in nullsec.

The invitation was wildly successful and so were the first days of the war. Within 4 days I had 40 allies and those allies had managed to kill 10x as much ISK as they lost including a fully-laden jump freighter full of goon moon-minerals bound for market. It’s fair to say the goons had a mixed message in response in first 48 hours – they went from saying they felt it was the “best thing ever” to beginning to shuffle their feet uncertainly and claim I was “exploiting” a flaw in the wardec system and boasting about how they would get it closed. Then we began to get various sob-stories from the Goons about how the “flaw” needed to be closed so the poor “merc profession” could flourish and how there were other ways for us to fight back that involved coming out to goon-controlled 0.0 rather than bringing allies into the war etc.

But it wasn’t until CCP Soundwave would begin posting in earnest on his belief that the unlimited defensive allies system was wrong because it well, was too “fair” (or otherwise advantageous to the defender) that the Goon posting squad got fully into gear and started spamming in favour of the 1.1 change.

Details of the 1.1 change.

In essence the allied system of Inferno is getting heavily nerfed.

1. Defensive allies will have a two week timer with no auto renew (so a guaranteed 24-48 hour downtime per 2 weeks)
2. Defensive allies beyond the first will be billed on an exponential scale starting with 10m up to a 20 limit (that will cost apparently 5 trillion per 2 weeks for the 20th ally) – No I am not making this up.
3. Mutual wars can no longer include allies period.
4. Cost of declaring on a large entity is capped at 500m (which is still a tenfold increase in default cost from pre Inferno system).

And so to the drama

So I posted in response to the test server rollout of this change. I said quite bluntly that I felt this was a change purely in the interests of the largest alliance entities in the game and for it to happen in a short time since the release of Inferno and given the results and allies involved it all smelt a bit fishy.

What do I mean by this?

Well, I’m not saying that CCP Developers are being intentionally corrupt and giving their mates advantages (T20 style). But I definitely think there is a case that the Developers specifically involved with the wardec system have lost their objectivity over what is good for Eve Online as a whole in these changes. I think it’s no real secret that CCP this summer have been revealed as blushing 0.0 Fanboys. We’ve seen Goonswarm events and initiatives triumphed in the gaming media and used as examples of good emergent gameplay from all levels of CCP employee – from the official forums to first party news sites and developer conferences.

We’ve heard the message “Eve isn’t fair” “War isn’t fair” “HTFU” to justify this kind of fanboy approach time and time again and my allegation is not one of specific corruption and malfeasance so much as the developers have just gotten swept up in the culture and ideology of the dominant players in 0.0 space and lost their view of how it is in the rest of Eve (and how these things look to people in smaller corps and alliances).

The same can be said of the current CSM. It’s made up mainly of representatives from 0.0 alliance blocs who have adopted the dominant culture and ideology of CFC-inspired Eve Online. And CSM and Developers bounce off each other through Twitter, through blogosphere, and become inculcated with the prevailing spirit of 0.0.

This all became fairly apparent in the “tinfoil” backlash against my posting on Eve Online. We had developers, CSM and CFC posters hurling rebuttals against things I hadn’t even said – to defend a position that we were asked to believe “was not set in stone” (while of course it had been set in stone weeks earlier).

Notorious blogger Poetic Stanziel lays on the liberal attacks of the “Jade Constantine tinfoil” suggestion that the 1.1 wardec changes are to the benefit of the large alliances and ends up with CCP Soundwave giving his nod to the blog on Eve General forum.

When another noted blogger Jester writes a piece that isn’t hostile to my position he’s immediately spammed by dozens of angry Goons and has the Mittani coming close to calling for his head on twitter.

There is a lot of emotion here.

And I really do understand why people have gotten defensive at the suggestion this these are biased changes to benefit the dominant powers in 0.0. CCP is still sensitive about notions of developer corruption and it’s an easy thing to switch from jokes of “devswarm” and “dev batphones” made by CFC guys in threads swapping quips with the developers – to an actual accusation of such things which would be horrendously damaging to CCP if proven.

So to clarify then: I don’t really think that Mittani has phoned up CCP Soundwave and told him “fix the wardec system we’re getting owned.”

But I do think pressure has been brought both overt and covert to rush these changes through far more quickly than they should have been. This pressure has come in parts through the CSM (both from the large alliance route to their candidates and from the “merc profession” route through their guys. The more I think about it the more I think that CCP Soundwave’s Iceland Wardec meeting will show (when we get the minutes) that there was no rational middle path proposed by our candidates for most players, and the only hearing was nullsec or “merc profession” special interests and CCP thus didn’t get a proper scope of advice on this issue.

And more pressure has come from CCP’s innate and now obvious fanboy relationship with those they consider the originators of emergent gameplay in Eve online. Burn Jita ends up with a “heh we don’t care about anyone losing their ships that’s consequence!” Hulkageddon is met with “cry more miners!” and both are lauded as triumphs of the sandbox. But with this change to the wardec system with Inferno 1.1 its all “oh noes the plight of the professional mercenary and those 40 defender decs were silly because Eve is not supposed to be fair!”

If not corrupt, it is at least a tremendous double standard and I think the only reason that CCP is not seeing this right now is they are too much in love with the legend and mythology of Goon-dominated 0.0. The defence of the “merc profession” with Inferno 1.1 is just an unconvincing fig-leaf that even the “merc profession” itself doesn’t believe capable of covering the shrunken genetalia of the brutally nerfed wardec system we’re ending up with.

Fallout and the Future

So one side says “its all tinfoil! Its Jade and friends jumping at shadows and pointing at devswarm corruption!” The popular kids on twitter laugh about how the CSM came together to stomp and troll Jade posts on eve-online. “The war is won! Sing the Goonswarm posters (safe in the knowledge they will shortly be protected from counteraction and their griefing decs will go on in relative peace).

But all over Eve Online players are logging onto their Teamspeak Servers and saying “So it looks like CCP caved into the Goons over wardecs.

Ordinary players are looking at the facts and seeing that a 10,000 man alliance can wardec anyone they want for 50m isk and keep the war active forever. While anyone wanting to strike back in earnest would have to pay 10 TRILLION ISK per 2 week cycle to bring 20 allies to the fight.

These are crazy numbers. This is a frankly insane knee-jerk of a fix. Its ideology and dogma driving game design and reaching cloud-cuckoo-conclusions, this is developers high on 0.0 macho reading printouts of whining eve-mails from ganked miners and wanting to join the cool-kinds in the Mittani compound and share the hulkageddon coolaid. This is a round table discussion that begins “so how can we balance the wardec system?” And getting the reply, “balance? Game balance? THIS IS SPARTA!”

And the outcome? Well, sadly it’s one of those things like titan-dropping 100 armour hacs on a 20 man T1 cruiser gang that provides a bit of vicarious thrill for the winners for about 20secs before they realize they tagged 3 of the enemy and the rest have docked up and gone to play Battlefield3.

War in Eve doesn’t need to be strictly “fair” or scrupulously “balanced” but it does need to be competitive. If both sides don’t have a chance of improving their odds and gaining a fighting chance then there simply isn’t going to be a fight.

And this is the most glaring problem with Soundwave’s “Eve isn’t fair and nor should war system be” philosophy. If it isn’t perceived to be “fairer” or at least more competitive to both sides then people are just going to ignore it. If you really can’t build a defensive coalition to fight back against a giant 0.0 alliance with 100x your number for the same isk they pay to make the war in the first place then people will just shrug and say “bloody CCP making the game for goons only – I’m off to run sanctums on my CFC alt.” There is no motivation to fight a war you have no effective way of winning or indeed improving your position in.

“Fair” really is a double-edged sword. And the problem with this fix is it’s all about trying to be super-fair to first the so-called “merc profession” (so much so they have asked for direct developer intervention to price fix their services!) and second to the giant alliances to ensure their numerical advantage and price efficiency in wars is absolute protected. These 1.1 changes are about as un laissez faire as they could be. It’s all about protectionist intervention and training wheels for mercs and nullsec powers.

War is not fair, Eve War is not Fair! Therefore Inferno 1.1 Wardecs will not be fair!
(But its also not FAIR that large attackers get dog-piled so we’re going to make an exception to our policy of not fairness and be specially “fair” to large alliances only!” But thats okay because we’re being unfairly fair while we do it!”)

Endgame and a plea for common sense.

So, to the pitch I made to CCP Soundwave, to the CSM, and to Eve in general when these changes were announced. It’s pretty simple:

1. Ally contracts are for 2 weeks (auto renew available so the 24-48 hour pause can be avoided if war is continuing charges can be auto billed if applicable)
2. Ally contracts have a minimum price tag (as per soundwave’s plan but without 20 limit or the crazy money multipliers) but only if the new ally would push the total size of the defending coalition (defender + all current allies) in excess of the size of the attacker.
3. Optionally, if the defending coalition is larger than the attacking coalition the attacker can add allies to match.

And that’s about it. It will address the issue of “dogpiles” on small wardec corporations as well as the Soundwave 1.1 patch will (because it’s essentially the same when the attacker is smaller than the defender). But it will allow a much smaller defender to add enough allies to take on a massive alliance as is the case with Inferno 1.0.

More importantly – it lets wars grow as an organic and dynamic conflict where both sides can be taking moves and counter moves and ironically it will lead to people competing for the best mercs eventually.

Now of course I already pitched this widely. Most actual players seem to believe it’s a good fix, certainly the majority response in the devblog/test server threads believes it’s a better fix than the Soundwave option.

Soundwave himself disagreed on the grounds that it was:

A) too fair (and eve is not meant to be fair – except to the “merc profession” of course)
B) he didn’t believe it would help the merc profession

Now first point I have to refute because his own team’s devblog goes on about how the mutual war business becomes a mano-a-mano (lol fair fight) which in itself flies in the face of the Eve sandbox player led consequence theme. This comes alongside new ally fees to make things “more fair” for the attacker and the “merc profession”. And of course, as I’ve pointed out widely on Eve-Online as long as these are wars where the attacker is smaller than the defender (ie a professional merc taking a meaningful hit contract) then it’s precisely the same as the offered 1.1 patch.

Of the CSM well, to be honest it hasn’t been too useful, some are 0.0 puppets, some are “professional mercenary” guys tied to their own interests and some are just a bit useless anyway. I don’t think many players had much expectation for this CSM so it’s fair to say they haven’t disappointed that much.

So that’s where we are.

My “tinfoil” seems very widely shared across the length and breadth of the Eve community, judging from thread responses, blogs, and general conversations in Teamspeak, the collective feeling is that CCP is too much in love with the culture of 0.0 and has been suckered into the belief that emergent gameplay and consequences flow only one way (from nullsec to hisec).

It’s widely considered that the “plight” of the mercenary profession has been used as a fig-leaf to cover up a change that is massively to the benefit of nullsec powers continuing “grief-only” wardecs against their targets without significant opportunity for counteraction.

I think CCP has supped on Mittani’s coolaid certainly, but it needs to take a leaf from its own promotional videos “the butterfly effect” and “I was there.” Eve is not just a game for huge 0.0 alliances and their egomaniac leadership to design emergent gameplay/hisec ganking campaigns against a captive audience of subscription-paying victims.

Eve is a sandbox where anyone should be able to invent cunning counter-strategies and have the chance of turning the table on the bullies and fighting back in earnest.

Inferno 1.0 gave us a wardec system where hisec could join together and strike back against the dominant 0.0 powers in Eve. With Inferno 1.1 CCP is snatching that system away from us and piling the advantages back onto the big guys alone. And this and no other reason is why the commonality of Eve players outside the mega-alliances is looking at this decision and muttering darkly about CCP bending over the table for Goonswarm.

Inferno allied wardecs were butterfly effect in action.
CCP just stamped on the butterfly and turned a fire extinguisher on Inferno.
Current drama is the consequence of that decision.

- Jade Constantine

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  • NCdot Duder

    TL;DR Summarise this highsec faggotry please!

    • David Cedarbridge

      CCP loev CFC
      Jade haet CFC
      0.0 corps apparently started caring about wardecs says Jade

  • Lykouleon

    Jade Constantwhine posts wall of shit-text, world is indifferent. More news at 11.

    • David Cedarbridge

      24 apparently

    • Xuixien

      Why would you say "noone cares" when there's a huge wall of responses?

      Come on man. If you're going to be a troll, at least be *plausible*.

  • herp and derp

    Of course high-sec wars hurt the goons as long as there are enough of them so they can never make it to a market without being popped, unless they are self-sufficient and have no need to access high sec markets to sell anything then yes countless high sec wars will hurt them.

    Military might may win battles but economy wins wars, and blocking off the largest economy in eve would have its effects to the goon economy.

    • Imigo

      Much like any large 0.0 alliance, GSF has had one wardec or another permanently for years. This wardec is just yet another one that makes no further difference.

      • herp and derp

        Got to love that red herring defense eh? One wardec with 1 allaince or corp does not = wars with 40+ alliance/corps.
        I'm sure you'll have a witty reply most ignorant forum trolls do.

        • Imigo

          So tell me then, because this "ignorant forum troll" is curious, in terms of "so they can never make it to a market without being popped" what exactly is the functional difference between one wardec with a single alliance of say 1,000 Jita-camping members and another wardec with a single alliance with 100 members that has 900 Jita-camping "allies"? Or even 50 active Jita campers for that matter?

          Idiots flying alone through highsec, undocking T3s/freighters from Jita 4-4 got popped before and are getting popped now. Nobody else in the alliance cares but the ones who are getting popped.

          • Xuixien

            First thing that comes to mind: You know where the people you have "permanent wars" with live in null-sec and in HiSec. And CFC has a notoriously ubiquitous intelligence network, so you probably know where most of the neutral alts operate as well, and you can, within reason, track movements to perform logistics more safely. However, a few dozen small, anonymous corps that <CONDI> never heard of suddenly at war with you… that's a big inconvenience. Since they're small "nobody corps", you're less likely to know where they live, where they operate, and less likely to have the appropriate moles in place… which means you lack the intelligence to safely gank Hulks or camp gates in HiSec or ferret out mission runners to harass (which I see <CONDI> doing a lot). It also means a higher chance that a <CONDI> industrial ship undocking on the 4-4 will be met with … resistance.

          • Imigo

            Good points, thanks for actually presenting something other than "you're a Goon so you must be part of the conspiracy and wrong just because". To reply:

            The chances of a <CONDI> industrial ship getting popped while undocking from Jita 4-4 are always high with wardecs because the most common form of wardeccer are the trade hub campers. The usual suspects are in all these Inferno wardecs so this is functionally no different to any previous wardecs that we've been working with for years. We got our produce to market then and we're still getting our produce to market now.

            Yes, it's true that there will be more small corps who operate in out of the way places in empire that might make ganking hulks or mission runners a bit more interesting, but no goon is ever looking to be able to "safely gank" anybody. Most Goons live in nullsec where anybody can shoot anybody else for any reason they like.

            Wardecs just make highsec that little bit more like the nullsec environment that we love to operate in. There is currently no limit to the number of people who can dogpile in to attack Goons in nullsec, why would we care about limits to people being able to attack us in highsec?

          • Goon Fan #17

            I keep hearing you guys say you have OOC alts to haul stuff. But the kills from the recent dogpiling show that you in-fact do travel through hi-sec with your freighters of moonlove. So which is it? I want to believe you badly. But Eve-kill just keeps saying otherwise, And even API verified my disbelief.

            I still think you guys thought you wer all the rage by WD Jade Constantwhine which i thought was p.funny. I cant stand the guy either. But when he flipped it around on you and CCP immediately calls for changes because "the merc community dried up" sounded fishy. It makes me sad really. I always stand by giggling at all the stuff you chaps usually do and get away with. But this has left a sour flavor on my finger.

            You have to admit it does look a little bit like you guys cried to CCP.

            Right?

          • Imigo

            "You have to admit it does look a little bit like you guys cried to CCP. "

            It *could* look like that. But unless you ignore the facts or consider CCP Soundwave to be a liar, it's very difficult for anybody to reasonably keep thinking that.

            I'll quote CCP Soundwave again: "Limiting the number of allies is feedback we've gotten from the merc industry, I'm not sure Goons care. If they do, they haven't voiced it to us vOv."

            And because I can't bold with this IntenseDebate text input, I'll quote the REALLY important part again: "If they do, they haven't voiced it to us".

            I'm astounded that people can read that sentence and still think that Goons cried to CCP.

          • This guy here…

            Quoting CCP Goonwave. Yeah thats gonna make us believe everything you say. Considering he is a goon.

          • Imigo

            So you're saying that he, as a CCP employee, is lying? You're saying he is risking his paid employment for the benefit of people he met on an internet forum? Really?

    • David Cedarbridge

      Your choice in name is rather fitting. If you seriously think that any 0.0 alliance moves important goods with in-alliance characters you have spent way too much time in CONCORD space.

      • Fuck Goons

        http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=136

        Confirming Goons ALWAYS use OOC alts to move expensive stuff.

        Oh Wait.

        • Imigo

          Note that this is in the Adacyne system, a lowsec border system. You do know about how jump freighters and cynos work, right? And how much effect wardecs have in nullsec, or even lowsec, right?

          Also note how he said "any 0.0 alliance moves important goods". This kill shows somebody taking their ferrogel to market. Looks like somebody's personal income, not alliance income to me.

          • This guy here…

            Is it not still a dead jumpfreighter in hisec from your coalition whom supposedly moves there stuff around via an OOC alt?

            Spin it. Keep spinnin.

  • some goon

    I didn't bother reading most of the article when I saw the amount of fact-twisting Jade did in the first 4 paragraphs.

    Regardless of how you feel about Mittens, the war-dec thing, or whatever else we're doing to 'ruin eve' this week, Jade is a complete shitheel and shouldn't be listened to by anybody.

  • Burn deklein

    So ….When does occupy deklein start?

    • grief killer

      got my pitch fork ready

    • After Burner

      Ammo locked n loaded

    • Urziel99

      Let them come. More skulls for the skull throne.

    • http://twitter.com/EnderCapitalG @EnderCapitalG

      Please do this.

    • Xuixien

      INB4 Reverse psych- oh nvm.

      • God

        pride cometh before the fall

  • NOOOOOOO

    I bet the butthurt bears with scream more if CCP agreed to keep the current wardec system but with station aggro timers increased to 15 minutes.

  • GinTox

    as far as player feedback goes.

    I agree with everything in this post

  • David Cedarbridge

    If only there were some sort of system that CCP had put in place where you could make notes that show up on your overview and local that would tell you if somebody unfriendly to you is in that local space or on grid with you. Yeah, it could show who is or isn't in good standing with you. Yeah, that would be a swell mechanic.

  • seph

    the root of the problem is that the change befits largest alliances because they are measured as one entity. The twenty alliances that aided jade altogether may be a mere tenth of the size of goons and test, though still are 20 alliances.

    It sucks that CCP changed the rules in what is the best example of new system doing things right (overpowering superpower waging war, allies coming to save day overcoming imposable odds).

    Though… if CCP doesn't change the game, work with the system, if all allies are loyal to cause have them all merge into one super alliance that is the solo allies of the honda acord (a alliance in the truest sense). Being that the war could be perma war, the alliance has its work and mission cut out for it for months.

  • CFC member

    All this shows is that Goons and Testes are squishy and like complaining when things don't go their way or give excuses as to why they're getting their asses whooped in highsec. They say "Whaaaaat?! No bubbles allowed in highsec?! how we catch them now..?" and then promptly die in a fire.

  • Spambot

    CCP soundwave being a pro goon dev is nothing new. When goons say jump, he asks how high.

    • http://twitter.com/EnderCapitalG @EnderCapitalG

      lol

  • Dirk

    How is this not just easy to fix? Free allies for the defender up to the number of toons (active or not) in the attacking corp/alliance. A defender should have the ability to level the field through allies. Otherwise it's just a bullshit grief tactic that has made wardeccing a shite mechanic in the past.

  • Beido

    ehm after reading ALOT of this i have one question….

    who took/smoked/smiffed/shot/ate the little blue pills that had gone bad… ???

    seriously guys and girls this is a game of pixels…. why the fuck do pay that much attension to something like this so called issue.
    1) yes evenews schould change names to the "anti goon blog" instead of pretending to play reporter
    2) high sec whinners schould play some other game if non consensual interaction is to rough for you thats what makes eve EVE
    3) all of you get your fricking ass of the offices chair and take some outdoor excersice and get some air and blood in circulation again

    and yes im a bad bad awful terribal horribel grieffy tearcollecting SOB living in nul sec ( and yes im bad at eve ) and i could not care less of how my killboard looks and yes i happen to like the eve-hitler ( or what it is you sad things called Mittani these days in lack of getting yourself a hobby or a life )

    • iona

      really try and correct your spelling before posting.

      • Imigo

        While there are some good points, I have to agree that having to wade through bad spellling/grammar really diminishes the perception of what's being said.

        • hurr durr

          you have to agree because its pro goon and your in test

          • Imigo

            You're showing your level of intellect a bit too accurately there.

  • UdrankKoolaid

    Lets all listen as the cluterfuck Coalition cries a collective clusterfuck cry. U goons be sure to drink your koolaid now. Mittens says it will make you stupid and strong……

  • No shits given?

    Why comment?[youtube 98MNisZJyFI&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL5AC5F1ED314AE9B2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98MNisZJyFI&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL5AC5F1ED314AE9B2 youtube]

  • AAAAaaaaah

    I stoped reading at page 45, anyone has TL;DR?

  • Optimus

    CCP Soundwave was a goon, that's why any agenda pushed by the goons sees the light of day. He may still be a goon, but he was one for sure.

    Ask yourselves some other questions.

    Why remove the drone regions only advantage….materials through drone poo, giving them lackluster bounties in place that are worse than any of the other regions. No officer or transport spawns (Sentients don't count), anomalies that are worse than others, etc. It wasn't a balancing, it was to crush the DRF which by the time it came out wasn't unified anyway and didn't really need the change to destroy.

    Why not have also removed the advantage of the northwest at the same time, moon goo. Why not have redistributed it more fairly across all the regions.

    Its playing favorites, the devs have done it since the beginning of the game, and continue to do it. Soundwave is just the newest t20, he just does it in such a way that it isn't as obvious. Remove the tech imbalance and the CFC will be just as much history as the DRF is.

    The goons whining about the war dec changes is funny though, it is the changes they originally wanted, they just never figured that all of eve would band together to deny them empire access, after all the way the game is constructed you can't survive without access to the empire, tech is useless unless you can get datacores after all.

    • Imigo

      Well I would certainly risk my income generating job ruining the game that I'm working on to benefit some dudes I used to play the game with. Particularly in an industry that is so easy to get into and none of the people who run game dev companies ever get together at industry events like E3 or the GDC and talk about employees that fucked over their game for their internet spaceships buddies.

      "they just never figured that all of eve would band together to deny them empire access"

      Who's been denied empire access? I travel to and from empire on a regular basis with no problems whatsoever.

  • Velvet Alexander

    A more balanced summary:

    Goons play the game as a griefing entity, griefed players find a way to fight back with new game mechanics.
    For some reason (conspiracy or rashness) CCP slams hammer too hard trying to fix what they perceive as a game breaking flaw resulting in frustrating the original griefed players.

    Regardless of what happened in the background for the nerf to happen, taking away the pleasure of the underdog being able to finally do something about the bully is a very frustrating move, a backlash has to be expected.

  • Random Idiot

    I know that TEST want us to ignore them as their name suggests but I did not realise they were such poor players:-

    8 ships killed compared to 598!

    Perhaps it's a typo and it should be 108 or 208?

    Maybe this will encourage someone to stroll into Fountain…

    • Null Pvper

      No Test is that bad…. I'm talking Armor tanked Raven's with Arti bad.. Blaster fitted Cane bad, Hull tanked Lazer fitted Rokh bad… They are the Indy side of Goon, they make all the ships goon uses to bully the rest of eve. They them selfs can't fight. with out goon to protect them they would have falling years ago.

  • ROFL

    Goon tears bes tears!

    • RAWR

      BEST

  • Tear Sucking Bastard

    LOL Goons. With the Devs in your pocket you truly are the new BoB.

  • Backdoor Man

    CCP Soundwave needs to be fired. He's is still associated heavily with the Goons, still interacts with the Mittani on a regular basis, and has to pull Mittani's hand out of his own ass anytime he needs to take a shit. Maybe change his name to CCP Puppet?

    It is clear that the CFC are just whining because something is NOT going their way. But, rest assured, CCP Soundwave will make certain that CCP changes things in favor for the CFC. Goons are the new BOB! The only way CCP will listen to any of us is if you stop playing the game. When you cancel your account, tell them the real reason.

    • Imigo

      "It is clear that the CFC are just whining"

      Citation needed. I'm yet to see one single example of anybody in the CFC whining about the wardecs or the large number of allies we got to shoot at.

      • Whine more goons

        Take a look in the mirror. You are the only one claiming no one is whinning yet here you are shittin up every comment someone has about your precious coalition.

        You can save your nonsense. All of eve knows the truth. Nothing you say can change that FACT.

        • Imigo

          Lots of people saying something happened doesn't make it the truth.

          • RAWR

            never trust a goon.

  • Marcus_McTavish

    Goonswarm has like 77 tech moons, i believe, one moon would cover every single loss. If you think Mittens even gives so much as a thousandth of a fuck about some CFC guys dying in highsec, you are wrong.
    If you think that CCP modified the game to take off "pressure" from their highsec wars, you are gravely mistaken. An AFK cloaker does more damage than you could ever hope to do.

    No offense, but HTFU

    • Imigo

      But there's the problem you see – an AFK cloaker has to travel through big scary nullsec to do be able to do anything.

  • Random Miner

    Mitani, are people still talking about that guy? lol

    CCP "fixed" war decs because they've always wanted people to flood to null. They are of the mind, that if the big alliances in null can war dec all the little corps in high sec, the high sec corps will goto null to fight back. That kind of thinking is fucked, and with the game having existed this long and null still only having 18% of the players, it should be clear to them how fucked.

    Now the nullies are being griefed by the new war system, and CCP is angry because no one is actually going anywhere new. Nothing is being driven in game, except for big nully losses, which will only drive players from the big alliances headed up by idiots who say "we're war dec'ing anyone who doesn't like me forever".

    I still can't see CCP logic in these decisions… with no allies people will only be driven to npc at best, and driven to unsub at worst. They seem to always be trying to make the game unbearable for the casual gamer, and easier on the bully. When did CCP forget there are different types of gameplay in the game THEY created?

    • Imigo

      "I still can't see CCP logic in these decisions…"

      Then that is where you fail. EVE Online is built from the ground up as a PvP game. CCP recognise the principle that no artificial intelligence can provide the level of engagement that player-driven content can.

      • Random Miner

        it's a player driven game… which means it's not just a PVP game.. and even if it was just a PVP game, how does that their newest tweeking of the war dec system help that?

        • Imigo

          "Player driven", "Player vs Player", they're largely the same thing – you're playing the game with and against other human players, not just the game system and AI entities. PvP is not limited to ship based combat.

          The intention of the inferno changes was to create a mercenary marketplace, where people could make meaningful choices about which players they would engage to help them in a war, and mercenaries could have a service to sell.

          The way it was initially implemented meant that absolutely no choices needed to be made. People could invite anybody and everybody without restriction. The design intention to create a mercenary marketplace had failed, so they changed it.

          • Random Miner

            so you're saying they actually want the person being war dec'ed to have to look for mercenary corps and pay them alot to help them… how is that different from the way it use to be? The same corps will not know any mercs, and the ones who did know mercs will get them to help again, there has to be an open area for all to see for it to even be an iteration

          • Imigo

            As I understand it, there's a section of the forums for people who offer services, and the recent changes have added war history as public information so you can check them out. You don't have to "know" mercs to be able to hire them.

          • Random Miner

            but then people have to go out of game to find someone to help fight, that is a completely fucked idea, and its no wonder mercs are bitching for love. It has to be in-game for anything to work, and the only way to have it in-game is to have it as it is

          • Imigo

            In the same way, people go out of game to the eve-o forums to find a corp to join (or members to join their corp), or people to use their 3rd party services, or people to sell a set of researched BPOs to, etc etc.

            How is the merc market functionally any different to those?

          • Random Miner

            it's not different.. and i don't use any of those, and most of the people i know don't use any of those. Hell, en24 is the only thing outside eve I've ever toy with thats related to it. And when i give people links to stories here, they usually say "there's news sites about eve?".

            Mostly because people want to play a game, not jump thru 20 hoops just to get one thing done that could be done alot simpler. Much like the way people can ally thru the new war dec system. It's all right there, no clicking on a bunch of links, or searching thru forums, or whatever other bullshit. If you seriously think these ways are better, good for ya. But the game is more enjoyable when you can just point and click, and you're done.

          • Imigo

            One of the strengths of EVE is that it hands a lot of control over to the player community. Things like EVEMon, EFT, eve-who etc are all out-of-gme tools that are possible because CCP recognise that player community is far more engaging than anything they can design or code in their own software.

            You can join a corp (or accept a new member) by just pointing and clicking, you can use somebody's 3rd party services by just pointing and clicking, you can sell researched BPOs by just pointing and clicking, etc etc.

            If you think it's better to just point and click when you're accepting new members to your corp without looking further in to the player behind the character through other tools, I have a 10 hour thrasher alt that would love to join you in a corp mining fleet some time.

          • Random Miner

            you can use them, by searching for them, dowloading them, installing them, etc. etc.

            But what's so wrong with them making a little simpler and putting it in game? (besides saying eve is better when made more complicated)

          • Imigo

            What you seem to be looking for is a simple interface which allows you to implement complex decisions with a single click. The problem is that in EVE you're not playing with/against the software, you're playing with/against the other people who are also using the software, and maintaining that is CCP's priority.

            Unfortunately, no matter what CCP does or puts into the game, people are complicated. No amount of simplifying the software interface will change that.

          • Random Miner

            you didn't really answer my question at all, so i'm gonna assume you just don't wanna look like you're agreeing with me

          • Imigo

            You're totally missing the point. CCP are embracing the crowd sourcing that is having a player community. Instead of spending their limited dev time making buttons to push that do everything for you (at least, everything they think you want), they're building the framework (eg the new CREST API system) to allow the player community to build the tools that they really want.

            So seeing as you seem to want things spelt out for you, THAT'S what's wrong with building those tools into the game.

          • Random Miner

            well, i guess it's the big decision they always have to make. Have a game that's easier to use, and have more players and make more money. Or have more complexity, and have only a small and sepcialized player base. While I don't want every idiot and his 80 year old mom playing eve, I'd enjoy some convenience :)

          • Imigo

            On the other side of that same coin, they could have an easy to use piece of software that lots of people use for a short time then get bored with, or they can have a piece of software that people can have their own influence on and play for the rest of their lives.

            Flash in the pan (eg most modern MMOs) or lifetime income source.

    • Hermia

      As a fellow casual gamer, i agree. I like the harsh world of eve, keeps you looking behind your back but playing casually feels like playing a victim. Im an old character in eve, i know how to avoid fights but high-sec is mostly a turkey shoot for 0.0 alliances with no consequences.

      Its wrong.

  • asdaa

    wait from what your saying, as test was dicking around in fountain and then deplyoing to delve they were fighting a hi sec war? why the fuck am i just hearing about this now i've been fighting in delve this entire time!

    Fuck instead of shitting on delve pubbies i coulda been shitting on hi sec pubbies

    • This guy here…

      The way you use pubbies is completely wrong. Stop being a sheep and start being original. I know you have it in you.

  • The Incursion Kid

    Of course CFC Chicken Shits will whine and complain. Their losing on 2 fronts. I mean for one, their allies are getting their shit kicked in by IRC. I've seen, and participated in a lot of their fights, Razor is retarded.

    Secondly, Mittani runs CCP. He cries, they jump to give him a tissue. Its been proven before that CFC doesn't give a shit about EVE, and their end goal is to destroy it. Permanent hulkageddon? Should say enough, crash the market, shit doesn't get bought because the circle jerk's been fucked with.

    Thirdly, this is exactly what I said needs to happen. If CFC was hit from all sides, High Sec, Low-Sec, and null-sec, they'd eventually collapse. CFC isn't god, nor will they ever be. Bunch of chumps in cheap shit blobbing. A fancy little quote from Heroes of Newerths "No Skills, All the Kills…". TEST will always whine about something, first -A- bitches about Titans being able to Doomsday Sub-caps, NERFED. Goons cry about Titan tracking, and damage, NERFED. I see a pattern here, do you?

    - The Incursion Kid

    • Imigo

      "Their losing on 2 fronts"

      They're*

  • Daww

    Cry more space fags. Go Skill yourselves.

    • test scum

      love how its still all mittens fault even tho he aint a csm anymore lololol

  • Eve Null Pvper

    The problom is simple, Goon has a BIG mouth and makes a lot of noise, so CCP listens… Goon is only at most 6% of the total players in eve, if we want CCP to listen to the other 94% it needs to be more vocal, Get active.. Run for CSM and vote for CSM.. if all of empire activly voted for some one not in the CFC for CSM, CFC would never get voted in again.. Play the same game as goon, if everyone in empire made an alt, and parked them at a trade hub in a Tornado they could pop goon's JF's before they could unload there moon goo, and CFC would go loss all its money and fall. You don't need war decs to do this… ohhh your alt will get poped by concord, big woop, sec stat gets too low, del alt… make new alt… start again.. This would be even more effective as goon wouldn't know who or where the next attack in empire will come from.

    what needs to happen is simple, everyone else in eve not in CFC.. go out and Kill goon, kill goon and when your done doing that, kill more goon.. they will go bust if you keep it up.

  • kennethmarkhoover

    CCP is doing what it does best. Sucking off the Goons and then swallowing while looking into their eyes with love.

  • Jim

    My FW corp wardec'ed a corp in our militia because they were killing friendlies and taking advantage of being invisible to those with their overview set up correctly. They made the war mutual. Now we want to join a militia alliance that we formed, but we can't without surrendering. We aren't going to surrender, so we are at an impasse CCP won't rectify.

    No skin off our sacks, but I think this part of the wardec system is hilarious.

  • DarthNefarius

    The dogpile affect was screamed at CCP from day -45. By all appearances CCP only took action after the BIG GUYs got a taste of thier own medicine

  • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

    Jesus f***king Christ. CCP only releases their devblog of actual changes just before they release those changes. The changes could have been code complete weeks before the actual devblog. You could tinfoil hat any patch, update or expansion in this regard.

    "OMG! CCP are caving to Goons! They're nerfing Titans with only three days notice! OMG! CCP are caving to Goons! They're releasing Captain's Quarters with only two weeks notice! It was an emergency expansion!"

    F**k. You could tinfoil hat today's mining barge changes! CCP are caving to carebears! They just announced changes when the whining became the loudest! Oh noes!!

  • Themick

    Look guy, I don't know why some people cannot fathom this, but things do not change overnight. The changes to the wardec system took months and months of planning, some time to code and weeks to implement. Just like any other major change a game will see.

    CCP will not stop the release of content they have worked on for months just because a problem is most likely going to occur. They will release the content and fix it from there. If you have learned anything from CCP it should be this. Incarna released with the Nex store, even though people had reservations about it. Fixes were made. People had concerns over this system before it was released, it was still released. People didn't like the new inventory system. Guess what the fuck happened? It was still released.

    Welp.

    I have problems with this system, a bunch of mercs that I know have major concerns about this system…so yeah….a fix was worked out towards iterating the system.

    Conspiracy? No. It didn't become a conspiracy until Jade's day was ruined. Notice no one is claiming that he is conspiring to ruin the merc industry….why is that?

  • NullSecHoBo

    Well, you may have half a point there, in the sense that by getting 40 allies to dogpile on goons, Jade managed to show how broken this mechanics was, and how susceptible it was to manipulation. This is sort of an extreme case, a stress test.

    Seeing as how every high sec war now had the potential to degrade to a mess, and that this mess would potentially effect all high sec players, should you not be thanking CCP for acting as fast as they did, assuming your tinfoiling is true?

    Think of the greater Eve community (and do so ignoring that I'm mainly a nullsec resident) – it will help you come up with the more sensible answer.

  • Disappointed

    wow watching you up the language actually lowers what i thought of you and your blog. One less now there. Ranting by people in real life means you failed in winning the argument. Seen it enough in negotiations in work.

  • http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/ Poetic Stanziel

    Let me release an emergency patch so that you won't leave my blog.

  • Rammstein

    "Ranting by people in real life means you failed in winning the argument."

    You've forgotten that this dictum doesn't apply to the internet. Do you know why this is? I'd tell you, but you're too busy acting superior to listen.

  • hurr

    Poetic…enjoying that hes not the biggest faggit on en24 for once. Should probably be thanking jade for making him look like a reasonable articulate poster tbh.

  • Random CFC Grunt

    Welcome to New Eden. the place where no one cares about WW2 analogies.

  • Imigo

    Shame CONCORD charged so much to be able to shoot people in Europe then, right?

  • Zentar

    Heh… Not really seeing a counter argument here, though.

  • Zentar

    Yes.