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Kirith Kodachi: Its Time – Delayed Local In Null Sec
Local chat is a leftover artifact of a previous design philosophy, one that said that people play MMORPGs to socialize with other players and that it’s the game’s responsibility to provide an easy avenue to communicate. Thus room/zone/local chat was introduced and propagated to this day in all games of the genre.
However, EVE’s evolution has strayed a lot from most (if not all other) MMOs. I’ve argued in the past that EVE is a simulation rather than a game and due to that higher level of complexity the Local chat channel has evolved from a socialization tool to anything but. I can count on two hands that in 5 years the Local channel was something I used for spontaneous interaction. Alliance/Corp channels, public channels, voice comms, forums, IRC/Jabber all replace the need for Local chat for socialization purposes.
So what?
The Problem
Well, Local chat in EVE is primarily an intelligence gathering tool. Whenever someone is in a system with you, regardless of the millions of positions he could be at, you know his name, corp, alliance, employment history, and standings all at the click of a mouse on ‘Show Info’. Its as if you are in a 50 story office building on the 35th floor and know all the relevant facts about someone entering the building from any entrance except for the clothes they are wearing.
So a pilot in EVE knows when someone has entered system with him without ever putting eyes on him. This is an equal tool for sure, available to all and sundry, but the issue is that provides an extremely easy and effective warning system and thus limits opportunities for PvP. However, the funny part of it all is that it also acts as an effective hunting tool for PvPers looking for targets that are not as vigilant of the local channel.
The end result is that small groups/individuals who can’t watch all the nearby local channels like a hawk are more easily hunted while larger groups and bot software that can observe local 24/7 are more easily protected.
In other words, Local chat channel intelligence is a tool that helps the people that need it / deserve it the least. This is a contributing factor why low sec is a barren wasteland filled mostly with people simply shooting each other and industry a mostly forgotten playstyle, and its a contributing factor to why small alliances can’t make headway into null sec (i.e. there is no way to hide). It also, in my ever so humble opinion, makes warfare in EVE less exciting as surprising your opponents is very difficult since any alt can peek into the nearby systems and look at local to see hostile fleets, thus leading to the cyno hot drop as the most effective surprise attack weapon.
The Solution
It’s time to put delayed local into play in null sec. For those not aware, delayed mode in a chat channel is the state where you don’t appear in the list as soon as you join the channel. Instead, you only appear once you say something in that channel. This is the mode used by various channels you can join and is the mode used by the local channel in Wormhole space.
PvP in wormhole space is fraught with excitement and danger as you never know if someone is hunting you or if the target you’ve locked has four buddies ready to warp in and assist them. Now imagine that suspense without the vagaries of random wormholes and mass limitations; two large fleets moving to engage when suddenly another unexpected fleet warps in? Delicious.
Also, the delayed local would allow small groups to more easily infiltrate large alliance space as scouts will have to have eyes on gates instead of cloaked at a safe spot, and tracking an enemy fleet will require actually following them and using scan probes. It would allow small groups wishing to exploit resources in deep space to more easily hide their numbers and even existence from the local overlords, forcing large power blocks to patrol their space more judiciously.
Finally, it will make it harder on bots to protect themselves. Instead of watching local for new contacts, additional accounts will be needed to sit on the gates to watch for hostiles, seriously cutting into profitability of the mechanical monsters. Or they continue to use one account and directional scanner but are more vulnerable to cloaked hunters.
Force alliances to work to hold their space while making it harder for bots and easier for small groups to enter null sec and perhaps make a living? And more exciting combat scenarios?
Sounds like a win-win-win to me.
Its time: make null sec use delayed local chat channels.
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No
Kirith Kodachi: Its Time – Shut up.
+1 dor delayed local. It would make normal space much more exciting!
For 0.0 CCP could introduce an IHub scanning upgrade which scans your system every few seconds and gives you insta local. Should be expensive enough though that alliances would only use it to protect their most important systems.
Why can't local just show a ghost figure, no Show Info, unless they chat in Local.
So only way to get Corp/Alliance have a scout 300km off the gate to visual check their ticker.
This is completely dumb it would favour no sov alliances way to much.
They all ready have a great income from high sec incursions and no sov to defend so this would complete fuck over all null sec sov holders.
This is the worst idea ever
Why not tie local delay to the truesec status? The lower the truesec the longer the delay before someone shows up in local. That way venturing out into 0.0 would be more and more dangerous and more exciting and everyone had their own niche they like to live in.
And add (expenisve) IHub upgrades for insta local to the game. They should only send their info to your own alliance and your blues. That would protect carebears while ratting and mining and give them some safe heavens but the rest of 0.0 would get a lot more exciting.
Why not tie local delay to the truesec status? The lower the truesec the longer the delay before someone shows up in local. That way venturing out into 0.0 would be more and more dangerous and more exciting and everyone had their own niche they like to live in.
And Ihub upgrades for insta locals could provide safe heavens for carebears.
If CCP use this kind of solution, "dilated chat", We, the explorers, need new massive tools for scouting. I propose Permanent Scout Towers, with sensors, or mini POS with large automated sensors, that could give to explorer and vigilants good tools to explore.
More tools! More Ships! MORE MORE MORE!!!
Yeah I'm down with this idea.
Local blows as an intel gathering tool. There should be new intel tools devised, local removed and replaced with something else.
I'd like to see an intel window that allowed pilots to call for help and that distress call is automatically plugged in the window for all who have access to that intel window to see. Let it give all the right info automatically and people can click on it to join a group that is going there.
This is just an example. Many things are and should be possible. Think outside the current sandbox
Make it an option for the sov holder and I wouldn't complain. They should make 0.0 space more customizable.
If we had to do something about local, id rather moving local to CONSTELLATION channel.
local goes blank until anybody says something.
while CONSTELLATION provides all info that local does atm.
people would have enough intel to know they were not alone, but still wouldnt know for sure in wich system the other pilots were in. sounds like a decent change, imo.
atm constellation/region channel [they really exist] are useless.
i havent used any of them in 6 years.
CONSTELLATION channel instead of LOCAL.
voh
Scanning (D-scan not probes) entirely needs a rework, as click butan! recieve spreadsheet is not good enough for a game that looks as pretty as it does in other areas, maybe even remove scanning entirely and make the ability to do it upon module activation. This would give scouts something do do other than read local and read a spreadsheet generated from D-scan. And yes, delayed local would be a good idea, as it just makes more sense. Why the hell would you know what was in a system without scanning? Something would have to be done to manage lag with an increase in scanning by more people, but the first steps are already in place, TiDi. This would lead to more danger, and more conflict in null. Bring it on.
YOU may not talk in local. But the majority of players do.
Fucking craven nullbears HTFU. Wormhole people live without local every day and do you see them whinnying like snivelling little bitches? NO you do not!
In fact local should be delayed in empire space too, both high and low sec. And people should not be allowed to put people on activity alert in contacts, it shits up high sec warfare when you know WT are online. Yesterday I could roam high sec freely without scout despite wardeck because I knew all the fucking Russians my alliance is at war were sleeping their vodka dreams. This game is to damn fucking easy!
Really badly written proposition, I don't know what's your null-low sec life experience as you think only as a solo PVP pilot that looks for really easy kills.
The most important point you forgot to add is looking at star maps and dotlan will reveal active systems, if you want to make local chat same as in WH space you need to remove the null-low sec systems from dotlan and star map in game.
For me it seems that your idea is only to counter bots, but it will ruin the way the people live in null sec and as many already pointed out will exile them back to empire and null will become deserted as many WH are.
You need to revise your proposition, cause it addresses a very neglect-able issue of bots.
A more practical solution to counter bots in nullsec is – go place a cloaky alt in the bots system for a month, really fast that bot becomes useless and unsubscripted .
Local chat should be a computer network service owned by the alliance. New ships and skills should be build with the role of "cyberattack ships" who can hack inside the network to "see" who is in local even if you are not in that alliance. New structure should exists to relay the "know local" network to the AU nearby at your own risk.
No network service => delayed chat.
In high sec this would be a Concord service free to all. In low sec only a relay delayed or maybe only near stations (inside?) and gates.
-1 – Go live in a wormhole if that is your preference.
"Finally, it will make it harder on bots to protect themselves. " No, not really. If nothing else it'll buff bots and nerf players.
I agree that local need to go, but this is neither the time nor the solution. Other changes will need to happen first such as a un-shitty sov-revamp.
Everyone's always trying to take stuff a step too far. It's reasonable to assume when a stargate jumps you in it is logged that you're in system. And so a WH does not have that dynamic. Now perhaps a delayed (but not until someone chats, more like a few minutes) reaction in local could happen if someone cynos in, just to keep things interesting. Could make hit and run tactics come into play, and make sov holders far more vigilant…
Kirith Kodachi: Its [sic] Time – Delayed Local In Null Sec
“… previous design philosophy… said that people play MMORPGs to socialize with other players and that it’s the game’s responsibility to provide an easy avenue to communicate.” – Lies. I never, ever have the urge to communicate with anyone outside of my friends, corp, alliance, private convos, teamspeak, jabber or the panderers and child molesters that make up Jita Local. I can’t imagine why this utterly non-social game would need yet another communication outlet.
“… Local chat channel has evolved from a socialization tool to anything but.” – So true. If only people would use it to wave hello to old buddies it would be different. Or chit-chat for the hell of it. Or taunt foes. Or link disturbing pics. Or…
“ I can count on two hands that in 5 years the Local channel was something I used for spontaneous interaction.” – Hmmm yes, yes, I see it clearly now. You sir, are the yardstick by which all social interaction should be measured. +1.
“Alliance/Corp channels, public channels, voice comms, forums, IRC/Jabber all replace the need for Local chat for socialization purposes.” – Well shit, you’re on a roll, why stop with Local? Let’s take away alliance & corp channels, intel channels, public channels, voice comms and forums. +1 in the fight against lag! And don’t forget to hide everyone on Jabber until they speak or DBRB starts typing out his stories (whichever comes first).
“So a pilot in EVE knows when someone has entered system with him without ever putting eyes on him.” – I know, crazy right? Take Local away from Highsec, Lowsec and Null, but put it back in wormholes so wormspace will continue to be refreshingly different than the rest of New Eden.
“…(the presence of Local) limits opportunities for PvP.” – It sure does. Lord knows I would have so many more opportunities if I were totally fucking clueless about who’s in system with me. It’s why wormspace tops the “ships killed” charts every year and nobody even bothers to use a cloak anymore.
“The end result is that small groups/individuals who can’t watch all the nearby local channels like a hawk are more easily hunted while larger groups and bot software that can observe local 24/7 are more easily protected.” – As an individual player, I just wish there was a way to like, throw an alt next door or something to keep an eye on things. Or if I had a friend, they could have an alt too, then we’d have… (divide by zero….carry the two…) TWO alts!!! o/ My goodness, the possibilities are endless!
“PvP in wormhole space is fraught with excitement and danger as you never know if someone is hunting you or if the target you’ve locked has four buddies ready to warp in and assist them. Now imagine that suspense without the vagaries of random wormholes and mass limitations; two large fleets moving to engage when suddenly another unexpected fleet warps in?” – True, there’s never any suspense fighting on a gate without eyes on the other side or wondering if his corpies in system might swoop in to help. In addition to removing Local, could CCP change it so we can light cynos in nullsec? That might break the snooze cycle a bit, too.
“Also, the delayed local would allow small groups to more easily infiltrate large alliance space as scouts will have to have eyes on gates instead of cloaked at a safe spot…” – Sorry to disagree on this one, but eyes should ALWAYS be cloaked at a deep safe (15+ AU away from anything). The last thing a good FC wants to know is who’s sitting on a gate or outside station.
“It would allow small groups wishing to exploit resources in deep space to more easily hide their numbers…from the local overlords, forcing large power blocks to patrol their space more judiciously.” Yes, yes and yes!! PATROL LIKE A BOSS, ERRYDAY. I thought we’d have to move to wormspace for this ‘feature,’ but bringing the mountain to us is so much more efficient.
“Finally, it will make it harder on bots to protect themselves.” – Thank god programmers are too stupid to adapt to anything, preferring to kick pebbles and go “aww, shucks” whenever a roadblock is thrown in their path.
“Force alliances to work to hold their space while making it harder for bots and easier for small groups to enter null sec and perhaps make a living?” – Oh hell yeah. First fuckin’ thing I’m doing when Local vanishes is form a small group to go rat it up in “Blindsec.” It’ll be safer for us since nobody will know we’re there, right? Right?
It seems a tempting idea Kirith. But it would be disastrous.
From my POV it's tempting about the haziness of who is in local and make the efforts to uncover hunt and kill
But at this point its a system equal to all, its balanced.
In the end I understand your point you are worried about the null emptyness. If that's the case I fully agree
This whole idea is redicule. Keep it the way it is.. hotdrop heaven is bad enough as it is.
Those who can rack up kills in null-sec on carebears.
Those who can't whine about a "delayed local" to overcome their lack of skill and talent…
it's a game, get over yourself
Removing local is a stupid idea.
It's also used to FIND fights.
Abseloutly brilliant idea! +1
This Kodachi nub is the biggest retard i have ever read around here and that is an achivement on its own, can someone just ehadshot him so we stop hearing his stupid blabering?
This *sounds* like a good idea, until you think about how your wrist would feel doing a dirctional scan every few seconds … forever.
Talk to former W-Space pilots about that.
This idea of yours look like something any half-sane person would be afraid to suggest on the EVE-O forums for obvious reasons.
I know it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it… but a wise man once said that sometimes its best to keep your opinions to yourself with your mouth shut to make people only think you are a fool, than open it and confirm their suspicions.
null sec carebears are crying because of one suggestion.
Delayed Local …… maybe a good idea to delay some seconds or minutes, then as normal Local. The best of the two worlds.
Hells, yeah! Delayed local! Let sov holding entities enplace some item that will allow instant local in upgraded strat index systems.
Here i was thinking delayed local meant you name would show up in local with some kind of time delay……… Say 5 seconds. What you are suggesting is that local is delayed indefinatly, unless some is retarded enuf to speak in local chat. Either way it's a bad idea. I'm an indy guy, sharing 9 accounts with my cousin, and this proposal would make it impossible to conduct industrial activities in null sec.
It seems to me that you are more interested in ganking people, than improving overall game.
If anything like like this gets implemented then it's -9 subs from here.
Ooooooh, make it a POS module or sov-upgrade to enable active local….. cmon now, you already own the local 'net (as the sbu's flavor text states).