The AAA loses key Catch system as GE-8JV flips to White Noise. hands
Last night, another -A- system fell to RA and friends. Local in GE was filled with Russian as the final counter ticked down. -A- allies had formed up sub cap fleets and were holding ready to harass the attacking fleet while -A- formed up their super cap and cap fleets. Cursors hovered over the jump command as scouts reported the state of local. The defenders counted their numbers while looking wide eyed at the reports of what was sitting in GE. The attacking force knew they outnumbered the defenders both numerically and in terms of firepower. The number of titans they brought to the system was simply staggering, let alone the super carriers. They were so secure in their control of the system that more than once through the night they warped titans to various locations to accomplish tasks normally handled by industrial ships without escort. The TCU fell. A bomber gang failed horribly into the attacking sub cap fleet while the RA and WN supers wandered the system completely unconcerned by the defending fleets nearby. One Rag pilot was so bored he started chasing down a dram scout, warping from gate to gate, in an attempt to doomsday the scout. He was denied the killmail, in the end however, when it fell into an Armor-HAC gang bubble at a planet.
The attacking sub cap fleet bridged out, leaving a few hundred supers and capitals to hold the system until the White Noise TCU finished onlining. A TCU that was, incidentally, anchored by yet another bored titan pilot.
Personally speaking I have read about super capital proliferation in Eve. I have seen some of the massive battles. I have watched the ridiculous damage that can be dished out with a super and the asinine amount of damage they can tank. I have been in sub cap fleets where the entire tide of a battle was turned because of a single super capital. I have watched SC fleets eaten alive by NC supers. I have watched NC systems fall because no fleet was willing to attack the DRF supers in system. The sheer over the top spectacle of the rise of the super capital blob and the impact it has on the game never ceases to floor me though. The question of how the war in the south would progress after the fall of HED-GP has been answered in the form of two dozen RA and WN titans locking down a system until it was flipped.
- Bagehi
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Its sad to see such a big and arguably "pro-pvp" coalition throw the towel and have the fighting pending a nerf from CCP that they have no idea how big an effect will have.
On a side note, it is going to be interesting how -A- expect to recover their grounds if the nerf isnt that huge and/or if the rest of eve dont unite against DRF as its expected by many.
Cant wait.
Already tweeted CCP if we should start rioting to have this crap fixed, as i have mentioned repeatedly I honestly hope they keep supers as they are and pump up dreads as hunters….
I really doubt that only that will be enough, riverini.
Personally, i think that they need to change the supers and titans in such a way that they excell in sov-fight, agaisnt tcu´s, sbu´s and such, but become almost useless against sub-capital. This way, with titan and supers you can win a sov-battle, but you still need sub-capital in order to defend against enenmy subs. This way there will be fight and super will be used in a more controlled way. Not like now, where you drop super-blob and, then….nothing. Insta-win.
Good hunt.
Yeah, I agree with you, dreads have needed a buff for ages, so what better way could there be to rebalence supers then to make dreads a cheap(relatively cheap compared to SC/titans, takes like two hours of ratting to get the isk for a fully fit dread) counter to SC/titan blob, and BS's can easly counter dreads as is, so I don't see this being a problem if the buff to dreads is a role bonus of sorts with extra damage only to larger ships(ie. SC/titan class).
Where the hell do you rat?
I'm guessing he rats (or rather ganks) high sec industrialists
10/10 complexes I'm guessing… no sanctum or officer spawn in belts will make 1.5+ bill in two hours
He ment that dreds mast cost about 2h ratting in good system in the future. And I think that few hours ratting should be difference between cost of t2 fitted dred and insurance. Combined with tracking bonuses and signature penalty (for subcaps).
2 hours of ratting right……
Lay off the crack dood
What will probably be in the patch:
Doomsdays sig radius reliant
Sig radius tweaks so supercap weaponry is relatively ineffective against subcaps
Possibly 15 min log off timer fix/removal
Not sure what their new role would be, except for structure shots. This is especially true if dreads get a massive dps/hp boost to act as their counters. That said, returning them to the status of pos ornaments is preferable to the situation we currently have. Lesser of two evils I guess.
Deploying Dreadnoughts in numbers to make a difference would still be nearly pointless compared to the use of Supercapitals. Dreadnoughts are stuck in their Siege cycles and sitting ducks, while Titans can warp-off grid and cloak if not simply jump out. Combine this with the fact that a Supercapitals moving will effectively speed tank a Dreadnought, and you have a near useless ship on the battlefield.
Add in the fact that Supers can ONLY be tackled with HICs/DICs, and if you have two dozen Titans on the field (as in this article), you simply DD that many Hictors each round until you feel comfortable jumping away. This can be seen time and again by those entities willing to go head-to-head with Supercapital forces with only subcaps, who consistently survive the fights but come away with no super kills due to the number of DD's involved.
Sorry, CCP needs to seriously tackle the issues that cause the phrase "Capital Ships Online" to be muttered from all corners of EVE, else they will continue to alienate newer players and older players alike. So many good ideas are out there, from removal of EWAR immunity, fighter bombers on carriers to level the playing field, signature radius increases of capital ship weaponry, removal of logistics repping ability from super carriers, etc. Short of a massive nerf to the Titans AND Supercarriers though, does anyone actually see Nullsec becoming lively again?
I guess we could all join the goons and bum rush every titan blob we see using cheap ass hurricanes with energy neutralizers, but at this point I think they are the only entity with enough players to consistently make that tactic work (if you can call their current record "working").
I'd say its working, considering the point of a welpfleet is to not come back… If anything its only a failure because so many of them survive to come home
Only thing they have to change is:
A "siege" module for supers.. only when they go in "siege" they can deploy fighterbombers , it can't move for 10 minutes (just like dreads so no more bubbles is needed), it can't use ECM burst.
Boost dreads so they are immume to ECM Burst.
Jobs done.
Now the deployement of supers is more involving tactics and not just let's put in 100+ becuase they will survive anyway. If this is implemented. DRF will start loosing supers. and balance will return. So we will have alliance x holding space losing some and winning some. And not this Alliance x has 23894892384 supers let's take all space because there is nothing that can stop us.
Yeah, I've been supporting the idea of buffed dreads for months. Buffing an older mechanic is nearly always preferrably to nerfing something, unless there is simply no other way. I also had the idea for a new class of dreadnought-sized ships to act as capital interdictor vessels, since HIC's get eaten up or nueted down by supers so bad.
Honestly, what they need to do is completely change sov mechanics. Dominion sov mechanics encourage blobs. They encourage a massive, solitary force moving through an invasion one system at a time. They need to completely change the whole thing. There needs to be multiple objectives that need to be accomplished SIMULTANEOUSLY. Force the blob to break up into multiple task-forces, preferrably all in different systems. You could get big 100v100 fleetfights in multiple systems instead a massive 800+-man blob making the game virtually unplayable.
The blob is the reason for the massive lag issues in the game. If you break up the blob, it would go a long way to making important sov-battles actually FUN and PLAYABLE. Almost like EVE is a videogame, meant to be played for fun.
Do you have any ideas of how to do this where the counter is NOT your opponent blobbing one of your attacking "mini-forces", winning, and stopping your invasion?
Could they just blob half of your mini-forces and win? (so you split 4 ways, they split 2)
This has been discussed before, but it always fails when trying to answer these simple questions.
Have it be some kind of majority system. Multiple objectives, where you have to hold the majority of them. If they heavily blob one or two of them, then they will lose when the others are taken.
Im not saying it would be a perfect system at first, but its better than what we have. Current battles in EVE are the virtual equivalent of Napoleonic warfare. Two sides line up, the commander says fire, and the sides fire away until one (usually the smaller one)is defeated or forced to retreat. It isn't fun, and it encourages blobs, which create the lag that so ruins this game.
Right now, there is literally no downside to bringing as many ships to a fight as possible. A system needs to be put in that encourages multiple fleets, multiple FC's and makes large numbers a bit more of a liability, since larger groups are always tougher to organize and maintain when the fog of war sets in than smaller, tighter, more disciplined groups. That kind of system would help encourage asymetric warfare. You wouldn't need to be able to beat the blob, only the smaller task-force sent to each objective.
Its the "its better than we have now" logic that really scares me, as I don't want to trade one set of bad issues for another set of bad issues. Just because the flaws of that system aren't readily apparent yet, just wait until 4000 goons or 120 supercaps are thrown into that system and see what happens
I'd personally rather see sovereignty based on system activity, and detach system upgrades from sovereignty. Invasions could finally be about removing hostiles rather than shooting another fracking structure in a long line of structures…
Well yeah, its a complex issue, especially with how ingenious EVE players have become at gaming any system CCP implements. The short and simple of things are that the dominion sovereignty mechanics encouraged centralized fleets and blob warfare.
Im open to most suggestions on how to go in the opposite direction of that. Objective-based warfare, and even your idea for sovereignty based on activity (which would punish alliances who claim space just for the sake of claiming it). The fact is, you cannot solve lag (and make the game fun) on a purely technical level, the mechanics need to change too. a system needs to be implemented that encouranges the seperation of blobs into smaller fleets, that are operating simultaneously over large areas.
It would make individual battles actually playable for a change, and would open up a lot more tactics. There are basically 2 main tactics in alliance wars these days.
1: Warp in alpha-maels/artie-abaddons in at optimals, and fire
2: Jump in super-caps and win
Its just disappointing to see null-sec boiled down to 3 political powers and 2 battle tactics. There needs to be a HUGE shake-up, because things have stagnated.
I think another solution is in the defensive and offensive capabilities of a POS. 0.0 needs more POS gunners and POS's need to be able to handle more guns.
It'll be tricky to balance the dreads so they don't become the next BIG blob. Dread guns locking with another dread's ship guns to create a super gun to kill titans would be interesting to see. idk, whatever…
0.0 mechanics should always be based on the support of others and not just large ships.
too bad you can take x amount of titans and dd x number of dreads, no more dreads no more fight…
Stealth bombers need a super bomb that fires like a missile at a locked target, does one million damage and can only be used against supers. Give it a ~10 second firing delay and support ships become critical to kill the bombers.
No one would field supers anymore as there isn't a way to stop bombers from launching at least one salvo. Bombers are also suicide ships in practice already, so no one would bat an eye at sending a dozen or so into the heart of a fleet to make off with a 20 billion isk kill, let alone a few dozen for a 100b isk kill. The super bomb idea is even more unbalanced than the current game mechanic and that is saying something.
Look on Jesters blog.
He had a ship proposal called the Assasin, a battlecruiser class ship that would be able to deal large amounts of damage to supercaps, but at the same time be vulnerable and thier DD bomb laucher that would be used to attack supers would fly like a normal bomb but not cause splash damage and would damage teh target that it hit first, making it not overpowered to subcap fleets.
Simultaneous Objectives will give a massive boost to the defender and taking Sov will become too hard again.
If the Attacker has to make 5 objectives the Defender only has to defeat only 1 objective to win
If the Attacker has to make majority of 5 objectives Defender only has to defeat 3 objectives to win
Result : Defender has significant advantage because he has to do less than the attacker.
I'm not disagreeing that the supercap blob is ruining the game and that finding a way to break up the "I win" blob isn't a good idea. I'm just pointing out that for every complex question there is always a simple answer that is utterly wrong.
HICs get eaten by supers and dreads don't? what world are you living in?
Yeah, I'd like to see either last more than 1 minute in a 1v1 with a super.
i can't plus one you enough here riverini, i really want to see the Dreads become a power in being a good support to combating SC/Titan blobs… even better, have them as the hard counter towards them.
Dreads should really be viable in the game again, they are one of my favorite ships, and it's sad to see them being completely useless.
its not about the supers its about their fail leadership and dumb tactics … if supers get nerfed it wont make the difference .. when we fougth goons we couldnt do shit couse well besides what people say about goons they know how to play this game (having 400 maels + their supers +shit standing on the cyno jammer) AAA just let those jammers go And then they whine about SC … PL NC. raiden WN couldnt agaist goons … why DRF WN and NC. can agaist AAA? when the supper number is kinda similar to the other party that i mentioned that invaded goons … AAA and allies use geddons and they can field 800+ guys saw it on hed
SC issue should be handled another way. Many SC came from the huge amount of space that has no occupation but huge profits (botting). If that territory did not have value the botting would become minimal and the number of SC as well. Territory owned should have its value rise and fall by the number of peeps who develope said system. 2 sliding scales to control a systems sec status. First – the number of pilots that rat/explore/mine in a system helps increase the sec status and thus the profit for a system. IE. a couple of bots or a SC ratting has no impact on system sec and the rats and mining goes down to crap -if not worthless to an alliance. Second – building in a system should also help determine the sec status. Start increasing sec by building poses/moon mining/stations ect . Add the peeps needed to maintain those structures and also ratters and miners in first scale. You get the kind of scenario that everyone thought dominion was going to be. Any alliance can build thier own -1 systems based on merits – not cheats. More peeps in 0.0 and less unearn supers. BUT the fact that so many SC are on the field still need to be addressed as well. I like dread fits with SC tackle/hunter capabilities as well.
Allow Reps while Sieged
The nerf would have to include titans to matter.
Super carriers are indeed too strong versus capitals, but titans are overpowered against sub-caps AND caps.
Titans DD all your t3 / command ships in the first moments of the fight. They also DD any known FCs. Then their guns track perfectly on battleships, often 2-3 shotting them. They can also hit hictors under the right conditions (bubble up for extra sig).
Titans needs to lose the DD weapon once and for all. Fighter-bombers need a massive reduction in damage (on the order of 75%). Super carriers and titans then BOTH need a massive reduction in HP. This would make dreads useful again.
The game was at its best when capitals, not super-capitals, were the center of large battles. Supers should bring unique abilities onto the field (ecm burst + titan bridges) but should not simply be an i-win-mobile.
CCP used to say that they would never make ships that had no counter and were "i-win-mobiles" and yet that's exactly what we have today.
In the past, when dreads were the counter to carriers, they also were BALANCED because dreads were vulnerable to sub-cap fleets when they were in siege mode. Titans and SC do not need to siege, and they have far too much EHP for it to matter even if they did. Not to mention that they melt dreads FAR too fast for them to be worth using.
There's a lot of truth in this post.
Honestly, ditching the titan DD may be the best option for them. Maybe give their guns slightly more damage (to effectively make them super-dreads in combat) and more tracking penalties against small sig-radiuses (radii?). The direct-fire DD sounded interesting on paper, until titans started dropping in groups of 20+. …and the AoE doomsday severely limited ship-types and ship-fittings that could be used against them. It really is damned if you do, damned if you don't.
As for the super-carriers, yeah. They need a complete role redesign, because there's no real way to "balance" them without gimping them horribly. CCP should redefine them (maybe rename them) and chock up "super-carriers" as an interesting, but failed experiment.
I love carriers and dreads though, and they really are nicely balanced. it would be nice if they could actually be used again as the core of capital warfare. Instead of just triage support for supers or, well, dreads have lost most of their usefulness altogether to super-carriers.
trololololololtrololololol
My concern here is that with this overwhelming force 0.0 areas that used to have thousands of people in them now have hundreds or less.
As more folks get forced into High Sec the thrill is gone and so is their subscription over time.
I would love to see some statistics about the depopulation of 0.0 since dominion. Think about the number of blocks that have been shattered: Proviblock, Atlas, IT, GemNC/CoreNC. A few had their core membership survive in one way or another but what happened to all their hangers on?
cry me a river
Other alliances could develop programs and work together to get their members into Supers. The amount of teamwork and co-ordination that DRF has displayed over the last few years to build that SC blob should no be kicked in the nuts. For those who do not desire the SCs or dont want to put forth the effort… They should just stop whining about it and do something else. There is an "I quit" button in account management. It is truly staggering the amount of ppl that think the game should be changed to fit their needs.
Really?? U do understand that u need sov to build supers. And with the fall of 0.0 in DRF and pets hands all the production of supers will be controlled and well observed by them
Just ask.. how many supers have mm and razors, this allys have 600bil+ every month before lose war..? Why Red Alliance after lost c-j6 to atlas start build supers and have what u see now.. but -A-, have 2 yaers and saw north war, don't doo anything.. but have time for that.
This is command mistake, and no more..
As much as I might hate the Russkies this comment is quite correct. Any non-Russkie alliance could just as easily be as big as DRF. The bullshit about how they might have ratted their way to the win button might be true but so do many other alliances.
It IS a command issue. If all the big alliances would simply stepup and lead a concerted campaign, DRF can be squashed.
Problem is, there's too much fn politics and anyone in a leadership position is ragged on for every move they make. Nobody wants to be FC 'cos they get bagged for the tiniest mistakes, no-one wants to be called a dictator, and far too many "democratic nation" players think it's cool to scam, steal, score cheap kills and generally be asshats to what could well be friendly forces.
The Russians are winning because they don't take crap, they don't give crap and they are well structured.
Until we stop banging each others heads. stop whining and excude some fn fortitude, Big Red will win and we'll never stop them. Cap nerf or not.
Deal with it.
I have to agree here.
NC had the northern territories for YEARS and did nothing with it except claim "i win cuz i can out blob you". The Irony was when they got "out blobbed" by the DRF super capital fleet. Something as big as the NC was, they should have been able to counter having all the resources and isk that they had. (hmmmm where did all that isk go?? hint hint Vuk). DRF simply played their cards correctly. Don't hate on DRF too much they are playing the same game we all are. Hate the game, not the player.
As far as Blobs go… There is no realistic way to stop blobbing. Why?? no matter how many buffs or nerfs ccp does, someone always finds that new omgwin button and will blob with it anyway.
NC had a lot of supers. NC FCs welped them into the DRF several times. The problem is that the game currently cannot handle a super v super fight on this scale without the force jumping in staring at a black screen while their fleet dies (see the previous sentence). Stopping an attacking force requires 24/7 camping for days. Most alliances cannot convince their players to commit to this.
Yeah, Im still convinced that the only way to make sov-warfare playable, and actually fun, is to completely change the mechanics in a big way. Dominion sov mechanics encourage a single massive fleet (to kill the various sov structures with their huge HP counts). This, encourages the defenders to put together an equal or larger blob to counter the other one.
All their talk of time dilation and upgrading the servers will never completely fix lag, especially as all of nullsec merges into 3 (and maybe 2 if -A- falls) super-coalitions.
The only way to fix things is to massive shake up the mechanics, in a way that discourages blobs. There needs to be a system that makes a huge blob of ships a liability, not an advantage. They need to stop trying to improve the hardware to encourage the blob, and instead change the mechanics to break up the blob. Spread it out so that there are multiple PLAYABLE fights, instead of one huge lag-fest..
No one likes sov wars besides titan and super-carrier pilots, and the only reason anyone does it is because they get threatened with kicking/resetting if they don't participating. That is not the way things should be.
Take that back, super pilots hate the blob even more than normal caps or sub caps. They have a hell of a lot more at stake in these fights (and a hell of a lot more tedious job) which are more often than not determined by which fleet is more lagged out.
Every super or titan pilot I've ever known has been trying to join the big super-coalitions so they can actually get the chance to use the thing. Big sov-fights are really the only time supers get to be fielded in any numbers (besides random hot-drops, or sanctums, but those are hardly their intended purposes), and the only time titans get to do anything besides sit at a POS and bridge.
But yeah, I will agree that sov warfare sucks for everyone, even the ones in the big toys.
That's another reason the mechanics need to be changed. Instead of a massive, single super-cap blob, the super-caps should be spread out, supporting multiple sub-cap and standard-cap fleets. Supers should be sprinkled throughout a combat zone, not lumped together in a trillion isk doom-fleet. It would push supers back to their intended purpose (semi-rare heavy fire support), and make it to where super-cap pilots can actually play the game when fighting in their ships.
Super pilots want to be in an alliance with other super pilots so when they hot drop something that turns out to be bait, they have backup. Generally, we tend to be a bit more conservative about our play. Suicidal drops in expensive ships tends to not be a sustainable way to play.
The problem with your idea is that there are some huge isk faucets in the game. Isk faucets that have allowed players with decent connections to obtain ships that have been in high demand in alliances for years. The horses are already out of the stable when it comes to trying to keep these ships as rare (short of just completely removing them from the game – something I support, but I'm probably in the minority). All CCP can really do at this point is tweak the mechanics, with the assumption there is and will continue to be proliferation, to make the game play more fun for the people playing the game.
Yeah, that is a lot of the problem. The only isk-faucets CCP have tried to tweak are the ones that affect average players. Super-carrier and titan pilots are not getting the 25-60 billion isk from running sanctums. There's a reason a large chunk of super-cap pilots are CEO's, directors, friends of CEO's and directors, or were CEO's or directors at one time. The money used to buy/make super-caps and buy the mods are corp/alliance money, from massive alliance ops, or moon mining. The moons have needed tweaking for years, to be honest.
Personally, i think the best thing they can do (short of removing them completely) is to massively change them. Get rid of the titan DD altogether (both the AoE version and direct-fire have been abused by an increased number of titans). Give their guns more damage, and severe sig-radius penalties against anything smaller than a carrier. I'd say re-do supercarriers altogether, there's no way to "balance" them without severely gimping them. Given them an entirely new role and mechanics.
Carriers and Dreads need to be the core of sov-warfare again. They are actually really well balanced. That's why there haven't been huge changes to them in years.
Our Corp has 1 Titan and Almost 10 Supers Paid for with Missions and Complexs, Many Alliances simple lack the foresight and determination to step up.
problem now is that you have to build the supers as well. and only large 0.0 entities like DRF, goons or aaa have the capability to actually do so. which also declines new alliances from doing something effectivly to get sov on their own. of course they can always get places as renters/pets/friends and rise from there but i think it should be possible to get sov without that if you can bring the numbers.
by the way i heard goons are looking for renters as soon as the caught back tribute and vale.
Fish still is in the see, but you already started cooкing.
))
LOL, share what you're smoking.
Ok I agree with all of you, I think, The Russians (may they rot in hell lol) made the right decisions, had the right commitment and as a result won. So what? we are all supposed to become their Pets now? spent the rest of the game in High Sec maybe? is this the final solution? I mean Yea! for the Russians but does that have to mean it's the end of the 0.0 game for the rest of us?
It isn't. It just means players have to be willing to break immersion by working the mechanics (namely fleet lag) and call into work sick to sit in a system for a week to effectively hold sov.
You mean "other alliances could develop new improved bots and allow their members to use them so they can get into supers"? DRF has indeed displayed teamwork and co-ordination in botting a large amount of supers
ever since most of the russians left AAA, AAA is more of a coward alliance. Its nothing like what it used to be. They always run, even in sub cap fleets unless they outnumber the oposition. No guts.
As i said, their golden age is long gone.
It's run and fight later or die and never fight again. Or, to quote a commander at the Battle of the Ch'ongch'on River, "Retreat? We're not retreating! We're just advancing in a different direction."
I'm inclined to agree with the top poster on this one.
Great alliances are not made by those who survive the longest, but those who fought against the odds and won. Sure, running and hiding may lead to long term survival, but at what cost?
If you're goal is to control a section of space, farm it while people leave you alone, and run and hide anytime a real fight poses itself… Well, that is not how I would describe the actions of a great power, nor someone who I would want to be allied with.
AAA has been consistently earning itself the reputation of a backstabber for years now, and an impotent fighter more recently. Congrats to them for holding HED as long as they did… but until they get the will to fight and dig in (and not safe up in Stain at the first sign of trouble), they're just another paper tiger for all it's worth.
What do you mean fight? There is no fight, there are no odds, that indicates uncertainty where there isn't any. The superblob can't be defeated or even harmed by anything other than an equal superblob. There is no equal superblob and no CSAAs can exist except in the DRF and their pets (which do actually include goons and test). There won't be any more non drf supers and the servers can't support the number of dreads and subcaps required to beat this fleet (or even get any kind of isk parity). This chapter of the game is over, good job russian bots. If the nerf comes fast, the game might survive, but it better be quick, once these alliances go to sleesleep, the game will too, for good.
Cry more, please
I'm glad to see this tears after some nights in HED and GE.
The way to defeat the super blob is to lock down their staging POS like Goons did. It can be done. It doesn't actually lead to "winning" in a spectacular battle though. Sov warfare in Eve right now is about bringing ships to the field of battle before the enemy, then sitting there for days until the enemy gives up trying to get into the system without lag-lossing their supers. It would be completely stagnant if not for so many fail FCs trying to get fights for their ADD fleets at any cost.
please, more bitterness.
Also, apparently, this related has hundreds of supers on it and i dont know math: kb.deerhunt.ru/?op=related&name=885491
Check the TCU kill. They DD chained the TCU and only the titans and scarriers who got a shot off before it went boom were on the mail. Word is the TCU died in under a minute.
titans can't dd the tcu
Dreads are pretty balanced with relation to sub caps, buffing them enough to counter supers would almost certainly make them unbalanced with respect to subcaps. So, new siege module for deploying fighter bombers, sorry, no moving, no getting reps. Fighter bombers can't attack structures (no more supers only). Capital interdiction module (no more love em and leave em). No ships made useless, no risk free pvp. Problem solved.
SKill less on ratting tengus or shiny ships. and get into a dread. :p
Another method of controlling supers could be simply to only be able to build ONE per constellation, where all sov is level 5. As it is now you could have multiple CSAA's anchored in one system, the only limiting factor being input of materials – but restrict the number of CSAA's able to be anchored, and suddenly you have a supply issue with supers. It drives prices up, making them harder to acquire – and if they're destroyed they become harder to replace, making it ever more critical to decide when to deploy them.
Might be a tad late considering the sheer numbers of supers out there, I just thought I'd come up with something with a bit more thought put into it other than nerfbatting the fucking supers.
Thats a very wise idea considering the current sov map. I mean it would totally solve the supercarrier blob problem. And at least 2 people agree with this guy!
Confused. At the time it was on +2, and now my comment is on -1… yet your reply saying it's a good idea is on +2? Yet the original is -1? Stupid fucking rep system.
Executive summary : Supercaps are killing EVE
All these endless counters to counter stuff that is game breaking are the reason that there is no simple one solution. All these balancing patches have created this monster.
I propose something drastic and exciting at the same : TOTAL RESET at a certain date.
All sov drops, everything not in NPCstations will be gone, TITS and MOMS should be removed from game. Give people the opportunity to refine all the stuff that will be deleted, set very very high mineral values for building new outposts where these minerals can be used again. Discard all game breaking stuff with one big blow.
Back to Battleships and below , and let a fresh new gold rush for 0.0 begin.
-A- Doesnt have the numbers to win.They rely on Nulli/Cascade Etc to join there cta's and when they do theres like 30 -A- pilots and handfulls of nulli fail and others.-A- have not one good FC.Mak is a fuckin emo dick that primaries blues for accidently speaking on comms.The arrogance of these fucks is beyond me.Not to mention that the only counters to fleets they fight are brought by there allies.Only ships you need to know how to fly in -A- is a fuckin geddon.They deserve to lose there space.Just a shame the other alliances are blue to -a- and will lose theres as well…IMHO -a- need to just disband.When dotlan shows you have over 2k pilots and theres only 30 of you in fleet i think its time to call it a game and go back to hisec mining.
The drf are winning because they have pilots willing to log in and fight.And allot of them.They deserve all of 0.0 just from a logistics veiwpoint alone.Not because of supers.Not because of blues.Not because of blobs.Because of a willingness to play.
Fuck you -A- you bunch of lazy peices of shits.Disband and get it overwith you overgrown bunch of emo raging pussies.
One more thing.Im in the fight.On -A-'s side but cannot bring myself to help someone not willing to help themselves.
One more time.
Fuck you -A-.
Fuck YOU!
Um, duh dude, the game got extremely unfun. Welping fleets against a superblob that can't be harmed is boring as hell. -A- might win a fight here and there, but it will eventually end the same, lost stations, lost csaas, lag, boredom, no kills, no undock, no game. Enjoy
EMO to English translation: I'm one of the fleet retards that maka yelled at. So now I'll just suck off the tit of the coalition and not fleet up for CTA's.
No, he's actually right. Maka is a retard. I heard him scream his dysfunctional head off at someone in fleet. If that someone was me, I would have convo'ed someone in the DRF fleet to let him know who the FC (Maka) was. Fuck that little basement-general bitch.
I will not fly with Maka and quite a few other of the FCs in -A-. Irony is, they've been such dicks that now those arrogant bastards trying to lead a coalition that would gladly see them burn.
Not once has he said anything to me or my group of chaps.
in past so many allies solved their problems with filling more f1 monkeys, blob was decision to all sov wars
now we see super-allies that invest their income to hi tech for long, and old doctrine "we need moar f1 blob" felt
ofcourse blob alliances like a nc, awagon, goons can whining bout "superkapitalz ar overpovered", they just cant accept reality – they are all shit
want to see the sc-nerf for moar this_nerf_is_not_enough_tears
The big problem I see isn't JUST breaking up these super 'I-win' fleets, but shaking up the ships used in a fight. EVE ship classes need tweaking to create synergy. This would end blob warfare pretty quick, but would be impractical because of the YEARS of planning and work that will have to go into it.
The other option would be multiple objectives. This makes defending space WAY TOO easy, no matter how it's justified.
Well, this is just a thought, but how about make it a bit bigger in scale? Say, majority rule in a constellation? This might just accomplish the "splitting up the blobs" while not giving the defenders landslide victories. Could be a mix of pre- and post-dominion sovereignty mechanics, with constellation capitols and varying levels of sovereignty, based on the sovereign alliance's preference. A majority of level 1 system must be attacked and taken within [x] time before level 2 systems can be attacked, so on and so forth. Failure to take a majority would reset the process.
Not a perfect sovereignty system, sure, it still gives the defenders a bit of an advantage, but it won't be too much of an advantage. Current mechanics would still apply on a system-by-system basis, but overall sovereignty would work on a constellation-basis.
This would eliminate the huge supercapital fleet taking one system at a time and doomsdaying anything that tries to resist, and give a breath of hope to a defending sovereign state.
Wall of text that CCP will never read. Why do I bother?
Link taking SOV with the cost of upkeep and population based. If you dont tak SOV in a system with a connecting system the the cost is 100 times more. Every time you take SOV the cost goes up by the Number of Systems you hold. Just like you gain SOV level you should also have a lose or negitive status. If you dont use the system it goes to a negitive state and SOV is automaticly dropped. Then to get it back it cost you double. This will slow the land grab down. and make people populate systems to keep cost down.
-A- got blobbed out of GE-?
No way!
no defence at all…
Well it is wise to not defend VS all that superblob atm.
i count
16 titans not 24
12 sc
8 carriers/dreads
total 36
sub cap was about 171 i took out the -a- and their alli bombers showing on the friendly side eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10…
in other news the ge- station/system is in reinforce and exits in 2 days 5 hours approx of writing this 06.18 8/24/11 we are hoping that -a- and co turn up for a fight
What you see there are the supers that got a shot off against the TCU. If you look at the damage output from the titans, you will notice that the TCU died from single DD attacks and everyone else on the kills were just lucky enough to have locked before the last titan locked and fired its DD. This is what I'm getting at when I am talking about too many supers. Structures in Eve are dying from one salvo attacks. I mean, seriously, look at this kill mail:
eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=104…
bagehi, when you reply please use facts you know like titans can't dd structures. or like the tcu has pure hp no Resistance
if we go by your idea that it was dd then only 10 with dd op 5 would be needed 10 shield 10m armor 10m structure hit points and on that kill i don't see any titan hitting for 3'000'000 damage
next you'll be saying this pos was taken out by titans dd'ing eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=104…
i heard you had a super but i can't be sure when you get basic facts so wrong
Look at all those delicious tears from scrubs who cant afford supercaps
Just ignore drf and there pl faggots for now. Give them no fights. That is all you can do.
1. Titans are as much a problem as Supercaps. In the southern war (I have no experience of Northern war) we were losing 14 logisitics in first minute as they were DD'd (yup by the 14 titans!). This makes it hard to get any kind of tactic working based sub cap wise.
2. Defending a cynojammer can be done, but its hard to do 24/7, slip up once and in the time it takes to online another, supercaps are in system, then, against the DRF it's over. The time taken to get a fleet up, even if its 5 mins, is enough for a fleet to be titan bridged next door and take the jammer down. The southern alliances don't have the willingness/ability to man a 24/7 large defence fleet (200+), empire trollers can say 'well you should' I will say however that its just mind numbingly boring, Kudos to the DRF though, AAA didn't deploy supers even under cover of cyno jammers.
3. Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. There is truth that many other powerblocks could have focussed on supers earlier.
4. Yesterdays men. AAA seem unwilling to let coalition influence what happens, they are fighting old wars. Lead AAA FC is a laughing stock amongst ALL coalition alliances. It's the running joke of the coalition. He goes in, dies, and has no structure in place to call targets even. 'oh i'm dead, can someone call targets' – is literally his catch phrase.
5. Last, best, hope? Despite the above, at least a group of alliances are trying to survive and fight against the DRF. The war in the south Sov wise is finished for now. The south have lost. No amount of spin can change this. The DRF can now take any systems they want. AAA and friends are in stain now. As Evenews has reported this has caused tensions in alliances, but, end of the day they have moved. Being in this group, it does feel like you are the last of the few, not willing to bend down to the might, or isk! of the DRF. Other alliances reset the southern group as the fight started, others have moved recently to actively supporting them, thats a shame, result would not have changed probably, but watching good alliances just give in is sad.
6. Winter is NOT COMING. Any strategy based on hoping for a change in game mechanic is piss poor. People seem to think that only the DRF will be effected by changes. The southern coalition strategy by the way is not based on supercap nerf, its based on the age old 'hopefully they'll get bored and go away' strategy!!
7. I'd like to see rebalancing be based on many small tweeks. Examples, Requiring supercaps to siege to deploy fighterbombers. Making supercaps/titans less efective at taking on ships 2 levels below their class (battleships), just as battleships struggle against smaller ships. I'd like to see dreads buffed. A simple one requiring little change would be to introduce a special ammo type. 'Armour piercing' designed specifically for hitting capitals. It should be long ranged (200km) meaning other supercaps need to adjust fits, or move around in battle to engage them. It should do massive damage and be a major threat to supercaps/titans. This would introduce a requirement of capital FC's to jockey for position in battles, and decide when to siege, who to siege etc. Sub cap battles still invovle many ship classes doing many things, its why most of us enjoy these so much, this should still be the case with battles involving many caps.
8. This game is old. The titan/supercap issue is something that CCP needs to negotiate as the game matures. The simple fact is that many pilots have been long enough in game to fly them. How do you keep a game interesting for old players, without introducing more and more powerful ships requires a lot of thought. The gap between the top and bottom, old and new, is crucial to maintain. The current problem is as much a result of the longevity of eve as anything else.
I agree with you that a Super Carrier nerf with no Titan nerf will not help AAA very much. The DRF's titans are causing more problems than Super Carriers right now.
As for the lead FC not having backup target callers, that hasn't been true from most of the time. I have heard 2-3 backup target callers get chosen before major fights. The problem is that no matter what ships our FCs fly they can be 1-shot with a DD, and fcing from a covert ops is really impractical.
AAA isn't losing to the DRF because of FC mistakes. AAA and allies aren't perfect, but they are doing most of the right things in the major fights. The problem is going against 4 of the most super-heavy alliances in the game with 7-8 alliances that are comparatively light on supers.
Cyno jammers DO keep the supers off field, but you have to realize that DRF often runs ops without any announcement or warning. If they get 100 people they can take down the jammer in 10 minutes. That doesn't leave much time to actually notice them forming and form a counter fleet.
no shit titans are worse than super carriers, drones don't even work in lag.
titans are supercaps, idiot
How can you call taking 2 systems in a region for a victory? GE-8 was lost because we let it be lost. As we did with HED. It took DRF over a month to get this far and they had to throw everything into it just to be able to come that far. -A- team has put up a good fight but as this turned into a superblob there is no way right now to counter that. If we knew that the server could take it well then i think we would have super vs super fight.. but we know that the servers wont be able to take it. Once the fighters are out the lag is crushing the servers.
DRF say that they want fights but they don't.. what they want is to rape defenseless subcap fleet with supercap fleets and somehow they get pissed when we say we wont stand for that anymore.
What is going to happen with the pvp:ers of DRF once everyone blueballs them? Is this the 0.0 we want? We all know that DRF wont go after goonies because they have a deal. Its just a matter of time and DRF will fall apart with internal dramas.
You try to tell me, that "Batphone everyone"-strategy vs only RA in 46 – is a way to give goodfights? We try to have goodfights with you, when started to attack without allies, WN in Provi, RA in Tenerfis, but you wanted not fights, but blobs.
I see only new NC, and as a NC, you will move to NPC/Hisec. So cry more, please, it's so sweet tears.
White Noise invested alot of real money to supercap chars and supercaps itself, but this investment was never the only reason for their supercap dominance:
This game was literally over as PL, NCdot, evoke, BoBIT (raiden) and all other supercap-heavy alliances joined DRF and formed up one huge supercap-coalition. This Block has not only total supercap superiority, they also have nearly all expierienced FCs. Especially PL was and is permanently and activly recruiting core players out of other alliances. All ex mainfcs of former alliances end up in pl, due to their unlimited bribery.
So the terrible situation we currently have was especially PLs fault. The moment PLs sided permanently with russians was the end to all sov wars so far. There never was a realistic chance that someone can match this unholy alliance supercap-wise nor FC-wise.
The resultung blobbage pwned Atlas, AAA, NC and again AAA. Without PLs stupidness there would still be alot more coalitions and a more diverse game.
At the end of Dominion all Coalitions will be dead. AAA is nearly defeated. All whats left is DRF and Pets (yes, Goons have nip with russians).
Say thx to PL and all other elite pvp forces. Stupid beeings.
Well, PL is no longer being paid by the DRF, so their supercaps are now free to be turned against their former allies.
Either PL or the Goons will be next on the menu once -A- is consumed.
bitter much? its allways easy to blame the others :p
"Without PLs stupidness"
Is it stupidness, or simply human nature, to stack the odds in your own favour? Shortsighted perhaps, IF your long term goal is to continue to enjoy good fights, but certainly not stupid.
I think PL, Raiden, and NCdot were right to help kill the NC.
What I don't understand is why all the "l33t pvp" alliances that hate blue lists are REMAINING blue with the DRF.
The game would be extremely exciting if we had 4 or 5 major blocs right now, instead of 3 (with 1 of those 3 being far stronger than the other 2).
Where on the map, ever, since DRF has attacked -a- for the 2nd time has PL been involved in 1 battle? PL is still in the north….
Lol do u know how much time need for to be a good not perfect ..good titan pilot ..and how much isk u need 2 invest…(is around 73-75 days to train some require skills in titan flyng and this in only for one lvl 5.
So wtf ccp will nerf supers or titans to be kill by ???200 /400 noobs in drake or cane who can train those paper ships in 2 weeks.
Price for a supers is not chap so is not very nice to be kill by a 25mil ship.
I got my super in a lot amount of time /ratting(months really) and still happy pvp with my main….so dont tell me here u need 2 nerf super because u are lazy as fuck and dont vanna be a super pilot.
U KNOW NOT EVERYONE HAVE BOTS OR BUY THE SHIP WITH RLM .
U see now drf/raiden/pl/evoke/nc. have some advantage but they have this mostly because in those alliance join a lot of players who wanna fly those ships and be in a alliance who really use them and who can replace them in case u lose them for a allyops.
Sry for my bad eng but i dont thing is good thing to said …..they have bigger ship that me…i will go hide and then in few months maybe ccp will change the game mecanics and i will win….atleast try do something….
sry and im not mad:)…maybe a bit for my boss now….he take some of my eve time:(
besides ur raving have u got any idea how u (suppose ur a big alliance leader) will counter a fucktone of titans and supers that assault one of ur alliance systems? cmon lemme hear ur opinion…
ps: bringing more titans/supers and/or hiring chak norris, dont count really as answers
Lol do u know how much time need for to be a good not perfect ..good titan pilot ..and how much isk u need 2 invest…(is around 73-75 days to train some require skills in titan flyng and this in only for one lvl 5.
Remove SOV, Issue fixed.
CCP seriously underestimated the amount of supercaps people woud be fielding and the game has turned into supercapitals online. all other ships dont really mather anymore and the group that has the most supercapitals wins 0.0 pretty much without a fight.
And its kinda obvious that people that are abble to are putting every last bit of isk and resources into building more and more of them if you leave them so powerfull/unkillable/abble to do everything needed to win a system.
GG CCP.
Either nerf supercarriers and titans or its game over, seriously.
Problem is that that includes all the botted isk DRF and crew has. wich made the buildup of that amount of supers much faster than normal.
Goons fought "LEETPVP" Alliance and band all their blues to rape-cage leetpvp SC's well majority of them.
Due to Goons history PR- and other event leetpvp sh1t themselves as the fully recognised that Goons would if possible continue to rape-cage as long as possible.
Hence CFC called on all their numbers which obeyed their orders.
Now -A- & Co can attack from Stains and have a number of blues Alliances killing csaa's/ staging poses and DRF flanks at multiply locations.
I hope the nerf SC'S or buffs dreds making them SC killers and allow smaller ships to tackle/point SC's.
Even better buff nueting on designated ships (Hurricanes/Drakes ofc ) that suck the phuck cap from Sc/Titans.
CCP hows the subs (declining I bet).
Goons were lucky they have this nip agreement with russians. Just pl and crew cant break them. In fact pl never achieved anything big without russian backup.
Even old NC raped pl as they tried something against them.
If the whole Aupercap team would have attacked goons, they would have lost VFK for shure.
any of the following solutions will prolly save eve:
-remove sov altogether
-redesign moms/tits to have specific roles
-stop botting (not so effective anymore the dmg is done)
failing that, by next year eve will have 5k online players (at weekends).
theres also a wild possibility that the drf will play a very clever game with their new -80%-of-all-00-eve empire and save the game. namely they could create a "nation" holding all this sov and renting out space to lesser alliances, but never establishing a blue list between pets (all pets will be blue to the nation and vice versa, but renters will never be blue with each other). goes without saying that the tit/mom population will be striclty controlled by the master nation.
Ehh, its an interesting idea, but it would never work.
Most renders don't want PvP, or at least not a lot of it. They want to live out in null, run amons and/or mine ABC ore. If the renters had to fight to hold their own space constantly, they would get unhappy, and unhappy renters is bad for business.
I think, if -A- Really is going to burn to the ground, and all of null is going to be goons or russians…then the future of null is the small, highly organized strike group. Based in NPC null or low-sec, and able to harass the russians, the goons or their pets/renters without being tied down to space that can be steamrolled by a super-cap blob. People are going to need to get a lot more organized, and a lot meaner…and not that concerned with having their name on a map.
Im a dick =p
just delete everything… delete all sov, all isk etc etc, bring this game back to day 1. Characters can keep skill points and a fraction of their wallets and 2-3 subcap ships (for initial isk making).
Honestly, it'd be an interesting experiment. A lot of the current problems are from multiple long-running issues stacking. You'd need some set rules to make a reboot work though.
- Reboot it to day 1. Highest class is BS, new mechanics roll out over time.
- Refund people a fraction of their SP to redistribute and a fraction of their wallets.
On the bright side, people would rage-quit over that. EVE would get smaller for a while, maybe even attract new players who had been intimidated before by the massie isk/SP head start of the veterans.
Would CCP ever try anything like this? Nah, they don't have the balls. Its certainly an interesting thought experiment though.
If you are impervious to ECM, why would you be allowed to use it? Get rid of it on supers or make them jammable.
make SC's and Titans UNrepparable. Boost the Repping capabilities of Carriers and allow seiged dreads to be repped.
It's pretty fucking lame to watch 2 or 3 super carriers melt 2 or 3 regular carriers within 2 minutes.
no -A- victor? no?
This is a real problem for CCP. Russians figured out what was needed to win EVE…and made the proper choices…kudos to them. The rest of EVE missed the SC boat and dropped the ball. So the problem is that EVE isn't designed to be won…that't the beauty of it. So the question is do you punish the DRF for being more strategic thinkers and nerf what they have worked to build so the rest of the 0.0 player base who fucked up is happy – this is a business so it's a viable question? This is a zero sum game so there will be winners and losers. The one change that would be interesting would be remove cloaking ability from supers and buff a subcap ship or two to actually work in an extremely large 400 man or more whelp
Found this on the CCP forums. Look like another angle I have not seen. Interesting. Flame away losers!!
**********Earlier today, this super capital blob consisting of ~5 titans and ~23 Super Carriers supported by ~50 Tengus and a few stealth bombers took out the station in 3 minutes.
My suggestion to negate the overwhelming Super Capital Blobs would be to add smart bombs to stations (50km range).
Balance Suggestions and Restrictions:
1. The smart bomb can only be used X times before fuel runs out
2. This can only be activated when SBUs are online in the system
Pros:
1. The smart bomb would eliminate SC blob on stations
2. This would reintroduce the Dreadnaught as a viable ship in Sov Warfare without having to rebalance the SCs or Dreadnaughts
3. It would also put Carriers and SC back where they belong, as support for Dreadnaughts and Titans
4. The smart bomb would allow smaller alliance to have some defense against the overwhelming blobs
dump idea
Cons:
1. The SC blobs could simply wait until the system is theirs before blowing up the station
2. If automatic, it could potentially blow up friendlies and other unintended victims
Another place these smart bombs could be useful would be on POS's (uses fuel, must have module), this would rule SC and Carriers out of most SOV warfare against POS. Also take the seige restriction off the Dreadnots. Its a huge gun platform. And TBH why should a Citadel Missle have less hit power if the ship is not in seige mode. Just my thoughts.
1 if the SC lobs stay away from the system until the system is their, there wouldn't be any problems becaueit means that a non-capital/non-supercapital force had to fight versus another non-supercapital/non-capital force… so FCskills(or numbers
)>SC number.
2the risk of the smartbomb makes the game intersting^-^ it's like the pos:you know that if you go to an enemy pos you can get blown up by turrets so in the future everyone will know that if you go between 50km to a station while it's getting atacked you can die:P
this means a change in the SC/carriers use: now it's offensive, whit this system it will be defensive(reppingdreads)
Riverini, I think you meant to say that the StationCat in GE-8JV flipped to WN after they cynocatted in a superior number of SuperCapCats to which there is unfortunately no CounterCat because CCPcat has had their thumbcat up their asscat since DominionCat
-A- is not what it used to be. The only good they are is making use of anyone and/or any idiot to out blob the bollocks out of you.
Once that does not work and countered they fall apart utterly.
Then when its peaceful, they would turn around and backstab and badmouth the very group/s that helped them before.
I like big burly men in my mouth =D
No matter what they nerf, there is no answer to fight DRF&co supercaps that doesnt take ISK+SP+effort. Pretty much the way that is today, and you all have been failing at it.
When CCP introduced those ships, everyone had the same time to get them. The skill requirements and ISK that take to get one is OFC paid off with great specs. HTFU and get ur own
Great article by the way. Both articulate and accurate; a rare combination indeed on EN24.
I still don't understand how CCP failed to anticipate huge supercap blobs. They couldn't monitor the number of supers in the game? They couldn't anticipate the way they'd be used? 0.0 players have been talking about supers being overpowered for over a year, yet CCP only now acknowledges the need for changes? Yikes. Isn't this what the CSM is for? Oh wait…
I love men
as ur ally u suk at fcing
FATLAS FTW!
All that matters is that few stood against many.
I relish in the fact that it takes a massive, tech-backed coalition to take on what amounts to amounts to a handful of corps without tech moons.
I have no regrets either way. It feels like Delve all over again.
is super cap nerf is not big enough i think 80% of non DRF 0.0 will simple quit. No one wants to play against 200+ super caps.
"They are gonna get so left behind If they just roll over and "wait for a nerf" "
This game is about to get left behind. Theres no one left to team up with…goons and test are DRF pets now
Yeah, I am of the same mind. To a certain extent, it may be too late. Supercaps were meant to be a rare tool that you used sparingly, at critical junctures to turn the tide. But now, even if they were nerfed to be half as effective, they are still an overwhelming force in the large numbers that are being fielded.
G'kar said it once: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJmuHNDcXLQ#t=2m14
DRF wont last…
I was waiting for my 6 months sub to end at one point this year. I'm still playing right now almost entirely because CCP started to actively talk about fixing null. If the fix isn't enough… I don't know. A chunk of the game has ceased to be even remotely fun. Sometimes it feels like I come home from work only to have to pay so I can do some menial job grinding through structures in a video game.
May I take ur stuff then? =)